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Standard User Zak_
(regular) Fri 08-Apr-11 14:42:50
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Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[link to this post]
 
Just received an email that Orange will be working on my bradband connection over the next week. I am currently on the ADSL2+ connection - Home Select 8Mb (Orange state that this is the fastest my line will take).

Router Stats:
ADSL firmware version : A2pBT009c1.d17d
Connection mode : ADSL2+
Type : Fast
Noise margin (dB) : 11.4
Attenuation (dB) : 37.0
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 8091
ADSL status : Connected [0]

Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 8053 1023

Here is the link as to what work Orange is carrying out:

http://www1.orange.co.uk/changes/

1. Anyone received such notification and has had the work completed?
2. What improvements if any?
3. Anyone know any further details of exactly what Orange is doing - am I being moved off LLU?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 08-Apr-11 14:49:51
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like a move from their LLU hardware to the BT WBC 21CN network

"In order to establish your optimal line speed, you may notice occasional re-synching activity within the first day after the maintenance work and some minor speed fluctuations for up to 10 days. This allows us to determine the best possible speed for your line. "

The best joke of the day

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Fri 08-Apr-11 15:23:08
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
  1. No & No
  2. None, but 1 great deterioration - the imposition of the BT laggy IP Profile system + possibly more contention at peak times.
  3. As a consequence of the collaboration with BT, they plan to eventually move everyone off LLU onto either BT's up to 8 Meg IPStream @ 20 CN exchanges or BT's up to 20 Meg WBC @ 21CN ones.
I intend to see how it fares and then possibly migrate. My Orange LLU connection has always been fast & reliable smile

@ MrSaffron: What's the joke? Isn't a training period quite usual with all ISPs? Or are you just being blasť?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB


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Standard User smurf46
(learned) Sat 09-Apr-11 09:26:16
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Well I think I've been switched as IP search now shows Orange Home WBC instead of Orange LLU. My sync speeds have gone from 2268/285 to 5186/845 on my laggy line but we'll have to see what the BT DLM makes of it.

I think the "joke" is that Orange have never employed their own broadband engineers, so they don't know and whether you end up with the same, better or worse speeds will be hit and miss. I hope the Orange optimists can prove me wrong.

No e-mail from Orange. Oh [edit] and my discounted line rental/broadband charge has increased by £0.51 (the amount of the VAT increase? which is now specifically mentioned on the invoice) for the first time, this month.

Edited by smurf46 (Sat 09-Apr-11 10:05:36)

Standard User vf12vf
(learned) Sat 09-Apr-11 12:44:59
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Just checked my Orange email account and nothing there, my LLU connection is rock solid too so if they change me over to the IP stream then that is breaching thier T&C's in my veiw which would mean i could leave...saying that this is the only LLU provider at my exchange so i will not be better off, just principal really.
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Sat 09-Apr-11 13:45:15
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: vf12vf] [link to this post]
 
As in my case I think the switch is to BT's 21CN with up to 20Mbps speeds (not IPStream/20CN), as long as it's available on your telephone exchange. Academic for me, but very important for those with speeds over 8Mbps.

EDIT: Just though I'd do a follow up with the BT speedtester results on the Orange WBC:
Reminder: connection rates are 5186/874
Profiles as expected: 4500/874
Although the measured upstream is good at 707, the downstream is 3375 of the lower than the profile maximum achievable rate of 4000kbps. This might presumably mean that Orange have set things up to take a very cautious view of stable speeds (or just be the DLMs response to errors)? On Orange LLU my speeds achieved could be within 500-700kbps of the connection rate.

Edited by smurf46 (Sat 09-Apr-11 21:14:22)

Standard User savamac
(member) Sat 09-Apr-11 18:16:04
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Good luck to you mate - when Orange "improved" my broadband, I ended up with no broadband / no telephone / no nothing .... for 10 days, during which their offshore support people came up with cretinous suggestions like "clear the cache" / "re-instal IE" / "re-instal Windows" / "replace all your hardware, cabling, telephone line etc. etc. "

I'm now with Zen.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 09-Apr-11 18:25:08
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
when Orange "improved" my broadband
But was that part of this latest exercise to move from LLU to BT WBC?

Please put your statement into context.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User savamac
(member) Sun 10-Apr-11 10:34:23
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by savamac:
when Orange "improved" my broadband
But was that part of this latest exercise to move from LLU to BT WBC?

Please put your statement into context.


"context" - good or bad ISP - Orange are rubbish - not just my experience, check out the Which surveys.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Sun 10-Apr-11 12:14:53
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
"context" - good or bad ISP - Orange are rubbish - not just my experience, check out the Which surveys.
Hi, I think you are a bit out-of-date M8. What speeds do you get with Zen then?
I get 20 Meg on Orange LLU, have been with them for 11 months and never found the network to go down.

View Broadband Link Details
DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 11248 kbps
Upstream Rate: 875 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 9.7 dB (Downstream), 13.4 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 30.0 dB (Downstream), 14.8 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 19.0 dBm (Downstream), 12.0 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x9662

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1245257199.png

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1245256429.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/38548735.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/38548662.png

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Sun 10-Apr-11 14:09:52
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
Just out of interest E7er, do you find Speedtest.net gives a fair representation of download speeds. I ask because I'm taking a bit of an interest being transferred from Orange LLU to Orange WBC (see above). On a sync speed (download) of 5198, all of TB's own TBBmeter (graphing, auto and manual speedtests), the BT checker I can now use, and speed.io are all consistent at 3375, but speedtest.net gives a consistent but in my view ridiculous 57xx. All of them are however consistent on the upload (which is close to the speed reported by the router).

I'm aware of the point that speedtest shows highest speeds, the others are perhaps an average but surely so does real time TBB graphing? And speed.io seems also to report the highest speed and I think also uses Ookla).

I'm a bit concerned that on their new WBC service Orange may have adopted a maximum rate lower than the BT profile at least for my line (4000/4500); but before on Orange LLU I agree that it was very stable/consistent; and tests were usually around 500-700kbps below the reported router sync speed (except speedtest.net consistently higher - so I suppose cynically I can understand why it's often quoted for making a point!!).

Edited by smurf46 (Sun 10-Apr-11 14:14:56)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Apr-11 00:00:50
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
Orange may have adopted a maximum rate lower than the BT profile at least for my line (4000/4500
What "max rate" are you talking about? If actual throughput, that is always less then IP Profle.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Apr-11 00:09:26
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Just got a fright frown

My LCP/CHAP Authentication to Orange just went down, whilst still Synced, for 30 mins. That hasn't happened before for ages. Was afraid I was being humped to BT WBC, altho' I have never received any notification.

However, it came back still LLU'd at unchanged speed smile

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Mon 11-Apr-11 08:05:17
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
The BT speed checker shows the sync rate (same as router) = 5198, the IP profile 4500 (expected) then a lower "maximum attainable rate" of 4000 (which I did not expect), and the throughput is several hundred kbps lower (as expected for overheads) at 3375. The notes to the checker are not particularly clear but suggest the "max attainable rate" can be something set by the ISP. I'm getting paranoid and wondered if Orange were up to a trick; all of course in the best possible interests of reducing costs by lowering customer expectations!

It's academic as the speed is better than it was immediately before on LLU, and ADSL is only a "spare" broadband to the massively superior fixed wireless in this location! Ah well, back to more productive business work for the week than playing with the home ADSL.

My LCP/CHAP authentication used to reset weekly on Orange for 4 years, a 30sec job and not a problem save when it didn't come back up for several hours every 4 months or so for the last couple of years! (After I learnt the virtue of patience 'cause if I rebooted the router it then couldn't connect to the exchange DSLAM until Orange sent an engineer out in the pre-BT days after up to a fortnight, due to their schedule, to reset manually). I wonder though if, for the time being at least, only those on old up to 8Meg packages are being transferred: it'd make sense since we've no grounds for complaint: no risk of service change unlike other customers with up to 20Meg services on 20CN exchanges?

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 11-Apr-11 08:30:05)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Apr-11 13:50:30
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
then a lower "maximum attainable rate" of 4000 (which I did not expect),
Ummm! Do you mean the max end of the range "For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is"? That is unusual! I've always seen it at least as high as the IP Profile, throughout TBB forums..

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Mon 11-Apr-11 16:03:12
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
There were two separate lines in the BT test result:
1. an additional line rate which shows "Maximum Achievable Speed is 4000 kbps", which as you say I've not seen on any other quoted result, and more importantly is less than the test results stated BT profile which was 4500
2. the acceptable range which was between 1200 and 4000.

Whilst I haven't been back to the BT checker, this afternoon I've swoped back to the Livebox router (as it gives me free calls on the Orange second line). This has a poor reporting facility but gives me a connection rate of 5307/888, and a quick speed test on speed.io before I go out again is showing 4379 down 741 up, which is more like what I expect for my line and I Meg better than it and the BT and this sites tester were showing yesterday (and more than the quoted MAR happily as 4Mbps is a sort of threshold for usable video and to use the VOIP as well as the PC).

UPDATE done another BT test which shows the same connection rates and 3863 download and still the 4000 maximum rate. On reflection this might relate to a bit of capping specifically on my line by a pre-BT Orange contracted engineer, when I first lost connection to the Orange LLU DSLAM as he apparently said he couldn't find any other way to restore the connection (although as usual I couldn't get much sense from Orange CS), rather than a general practice as I feared.

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 11-Apr-11 16:29:53)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 11-Apr-11 21:05:37
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Given ADSL does no compression if synced at 5198 then you cannot have a speedtest of 57xx, it should be around 4600Kbps at best.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Apr-11 22:40:23
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
This has a poor reporting facility but gives me a connection rate of 5307/888, and a quick speed test on speed.io before I go out again is showing 4379 down 741 up, which is more like what I expect for my line
That seems about the right throughput (82.5%) for your Sync.

I would not place too much store in the BT Speedtest on WBC lines. There are reports that
21CN (WBC) it is often garbage, or at least the IP Profile reported is. Though the frequency of stupid readings seems to have decreased.

I think it more likely the the problem is the WBC DLM rather than the speed tester itself, as that is still very flaky.


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User silverfoxxxx
(newbie) Wed 13-Apr-11 09:47:02
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Hi,
Just had my 'improvement' competed last night, my download sync has increased from 15267 to 15452, actual speed test is a good 2 meg slower though for this time of day, I've been running a few tests leading up to the change over.

My main problem is the reduced upload speed, I've lost 1/2 a meg upload I was getting nearly 1100 up now I'm down to 600, is this the max they offer on a bt line?, as the main reason I went with orange was the upload speed.
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Wed 13-Apr-11 14:43:47
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: silverfoxxxx] [link to this post]
 
My sync upload speed rose to 1112kbps after a few (3) days on WBC, compared to a maximum 645 on Orange LLU previously. The speedtest measured upload rate is close to the sync. I'm on a 21CN exchange.
Standard User Zak_
(member) Thu 14-Apr-11 07:37:40
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Now migrated to Orange WBC and downstream rate reduced from 8053 kbps to 6758 kbps and Upstream reduced from: 1023 kbps to 888 kbps

Noise margin reduced from 11.4 to 9.3 and Attenuation reduced from 37 to 34

ADSL firmware version : A2pBT009c1.d17d
Connection mode : ADSL2
Type : Fast
Noise margin (dB) : 9.3
Attenuation (dB) : 34.0
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 6810
ADSL status : Connected [0]

Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 6758 888


Also now connection mode ADSL2 ; previously ADSL2+

Hopefully the stats will improve within the next 12 days - I hope!

Edited by Zak_ (Thu 14-Apr-11 07:43:48)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 14-Apr-11 10:14:22
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
Hate to tell you this but tales of the ISP trying out slower then faster then slower in the first 10 or so days are just urban myth.

All that happens is this

1. Line connections, negotiates best speeds
2. If system thinks line is unstable they slow you down

At 34dB attenuation you should be on ADSL2+, so ISP may have opted to force an ADSL2 mode, you need first to try forcing ADSL2+ from your modem and if no change, then pester support. ADSL2 to ADSL2+ at 34dB attenuation is lossing you 3 or 4Megs.

NOTE: Your attenuation has not really changes, under ADSL(2) 34dB is right and normal to see it rise by 3dB when switching to ADSL2+ (due to extra frequencies being included in the calculation)

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zak_
(member) Thu 14-Apr-11 17:45:26
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks MrSaffron for your advice.

I have now emailed Orange requesting they put me on ADSL2+.

Orange state on my account that I can achieve an average of 6Mbps if I change package.

At present I am getting 5.5 Mbps on the Thinkbroadband speed test. On LLU it was 6.5Mbps.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Thu 14-Apr-11 18:07:20
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zak_:
I have now emailed Orange requesting they put me on ADSL2+.
Can't you just force ADSL2+ in your router? The Orange Siemens router certainly can.

You line is capable of Syncing at 10-11 Meg on ADSL2+.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 14-Apr-11 18:08:42)

Standard User Zak_
(member) Thu 14-Apr-11 18:31:19
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I have the old Livebox and had a look in the config and cannot find anything to allow me to force to ADSL2+

Edited by Zak_ (Thu 14-Apr-11 18:39:47)

Standard User smurf46
(regular) Thu 14-Apr-11 19:40:14
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
A few things about the old Livebox: you can't change the ADSL setting from the router configs (or telnet the router); the figures (even error nos) reported by the router don't change whilst it is connected - they are set on connection and only revised on a reboot or reconnnection, and from my experience the ADSL2/2+ setting and Interleave/Fast reporting is sometimes wrong.

That being said have you tried rebooting the router: I found the reported speeds increased and the ADSL2 changed back to 2+, when I did so following the WBC transfer on my line. Only by several hundred kbps though. Perhaps give the router 10 minutes off to enable the line settings to clear properly (a reboot i.e. disconnect/connect by switching off the power NOT a factory reset!). Shouldn't affect the DLM on a single or once a day reboot.

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 14-Apr-11 19:47:08)

Standard User Zak_
(member) Thu 14-Apr-11 21:29:51
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Rebooted as suggested - thanks.

Still on ADSL2 but downstream readings have increased to 7170 and upstream remains at 888.

Attainable download rate (kbps) : 7205 increased.
Standard User aramsay
(member) Fri 15-Apr-11 21:06:42
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: Zak_] [link to this post]
 
This is quite interesting, as only in the last few days SamKnows for Dawley Exchange has just shown up as having Orange LLU (previously only LLU at this exchange was TalkTalk (CPW).

Seems strange that they would just LLU an exchange when they're moving people of LLU.
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Sat 16-Apr-11 09:48:21
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Re: Orange Broadband Service Improvements


[re: aramsay] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by aramsay:
This is quite interesting, as only in the last few days SamKnows for Dawley Exchange has just shown up as having Orange LLU (previously only LLU at this exchange was TalkTalk (CPW).

Seems strange that they would just LLU an exchange when they're moving people of LLU.
Hi, I would take SamKnows with a pinch of salt, they have probably got it all wrong.
My exchange Knowle was Orange LLU January 2010, I had been waiting and watching for over a year for it to go live, so I could go on Orange LLU, which I did in June 2010. smile

Previously my exchange was Market 2, but with Orange LLU 2010, it changed to Market 3. smirk

January 2011, I looked at SamKnows and see the date had changed for Orange LLU to 10/09/2008 now I know this to be wrong, as I had been waiting for Orange to be LLU. I email Samknows, point this out, they email me back, and say the date is correct. crazy

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
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