Line fault - tech support being unhelpful

Hi,

Vital stats:

Voice provider: BT Retail
BB provider: Orange
Service type: IPStream; no WBC at exchange
Line length from BT database: 314m

Current setup:

NTE5 test socket -> Filter -> RJ11 Cable -> Router
Phone in phone socket on filter.

Fault:

From time to time, when router and phone are connected, the voice service is poor. Crackling, hissing (you can hear the DSL signal on the line), and you can hardly hear the far end person. Far end person can hear us OK, but they can also hear the hissing and modem noises.

Often, when the voice service is in use the broadband drops. The fault does not occur 100% of the time. When the fault does occur, it has been replicated with a simple corded phone. Unplugging the router from the line when the fault is occurring fixes the fault. Plugging the router back into the line makes the fault re-occur. When the phone line is not in use the broadband service sometimes syncs lower, but is usable.

We have tried double filtering the phone, this has had no effect.

We have changed the router, RJ11 cable, filter and phone, and can still replicate the fault from the test socket.

To confirm, voice service is fine when router is not connected. Broadband is intermittent regardless of phone line usage.

Current stats:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4096 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 16.0 dB 6.0 dB
Noise Margin 4.2 dB 14.0 dB

A few days ago the stats were:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 13.2 dB 4.5 dB
Noise Margin 10.0 dB 24.5 dB

Called Orange twice. First call, they insisted that changing the Livebox would fix the fault. New router came (Netgear), still same.

Called again, no record of fault. Advised that everything has been ruled out our end, including the voice service, and they insisted we need to raise a fault with our voice provider. I advised we'd not be doing that, as the voice service is fine, and we'd end up with a charge. They even said that if the voice service was with Orange they could fix this! I advised that I knew this was nonsense. They advised they would escalate to their second line, and call us back; they haven't done!

Obviously this needs an Openreach broadband engineer visit. As we're in the test socket, and have ruled everything out our side, there's nothing more we can do.

Can an Orange rep please get in touch on here to get this sorted. We're getting nowhere with support and both voice service and broadband service are often unusable at present.

We're happy to provide line details in a PM.

Thanks in advance.

Edited by deleted (Thu 15-Sep-11 12:08:35)

I find that the only way to get Orange to do something positive is to write them a latter, probably under their formal Complaints Procedure.

I guess we could do that. Do any reps post on here, or did I imagine it? Has anyone any experience of asking to escalate on the phone?

In reply to a post by jaffa_cat:

Hi,

Vital stats:

Voice provider: BT Retail
BB provider: Orange
Service type: IPStream; no WBC at exchange
Line length from BT database: 314m

Current setup:

NTE5 test socket -> Filter -> RJ11 Cable -> Router
Phone in phone socket on filter.

Fault:

From time to time, when router and phone are connected, the voice service is poor. Crackling, hissing (you can hear the DSL signal on the line), and you can hardly hear the far end person. Far end person can hear us OK, but they can also hear the hissing and modem noises.

Often, when the voice service is in use the broadband drops. The fault does not occur 100% of the time. When the fault does occur, it has been replicated with a simple corded phone. Unplugging the router from the line when the fault is occurring fixes the fault. Plugging the router back into the line makes the fault re-occur. When the phone line is not in use the broadband service sometimes syncs lower, but is usable.

We have tried double filtering the phone, this has had no effect.

We have changed the router, RJ11 cable, filter and phone, and can still replicate the fault from the test socket.

To confirm, voice service is fine when router is not connected. Broadband is intermittent regardless of phone line usage.

Current stats:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4096 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 16.0 dB 6.0 dB
Noise Margin 4.2 dB 14.0 dB

A few days ago the stats were:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 13.2 dB 4.5 dB
Noise Margin 10.0 dB 24.5 dB

Called Orange twice. First call, they insisted that changing the Livebox would fix the fault. New router came (Netgear), still same.

Called again, no record of fault. Advised that everything has been ruled out our end, including the voice service, and they insisted we need to raise a fault with our voice provider. I advised we'd not be doing that, as the voice service is fine, and we'd end up with a charge. They even said that if the voice service was with Orange they could fix this! I advised that I knew this was nonsense. They advised they would escalate to their second line, and call us back; they haven't done!

Obviously this needs an Openreach broadband engineer visit. As we're in the test socket, and have ruled everything out our side, there's nothing more we can do.

Can an Orange rep please get in touch on here to get this sorted. We're getting nowhere with support and both voice service and broadband service are often unusable at present.

We're happy to provide line details in a PM.

Thanks in advance.

I'm presuming that there are no LLU providers in your exchange, hence only adsl1, upto 8mbit service, as with a nice low attenuation like your stats show ,your line would be capable of more than double that, shame such a short line , there is obviously a fault, and if orange don't sort it out after your letter, then go to their ADR will be CISAS or what used to be otelo and make a formal complaint

Hi jaffa_cat,
Email their CEO describing your complaint and stress the facts that you have pointed out here. Many people say that this does not work or that you dont actually get the CEO, I would say to those people that it does indeed work and while you may not get the CEO you do get the escalated complaints office or the exec office who DO have the contacts to get things done. I was on LLU before being dumped onto IPStream, my speeds went from 4.6 to 1.5 and I was told that "That is the absolute best your line can handle", I emailed the CEO explaining what had happened and what I reasonably expected of Orange and after a few phone calls my line now gives me 4.1. Orange are now dealing with a contention issue that BT have admitted to and I have just ended an update call with Ian from the exec office who is updating me on how things are going. I would not have achieved any of this had I listened to any of the naysayers and especially if I had listened to Orange call centre staff and tech staff. Take my word for it that if you email [email protected] or [email protected] then you will find you complaint gets the attention that it deserves.

A year or so ago a rep used to monitor this forum apparently, but that stopped on the Everything Everywhere merger when the Executive Office was re-organised. If you want a painless way to escalate to the Exec. Office without letter writing, then I'd suggest e-mail them with the full history and what you want them to do (make it simple, idiot proof) using their e-mail facility on their Home Services website (see the contact us/complaints page). They usually respond in a couple of days - if that's unhelpful (as I've found) then cut and paste your complaint stating you've received an inadequate or no response (as appropriate) into the complaints form on the ISPA website. Under their terms Orange should respond in five working days - it takes a bit longer but you do get a serious response from the Executive Office and senior technical support gets involved. If you're still stuffed then you can make a second complaint via ISPA which goes through the arbitration procedure - but be warned Orange take a hard line on the 8 week wait before it can be referred.

The problem with telephone support is where's the record, and you have to go through the call centre with the likelihood no-one takes "ownership" of the issue. Going through the above route (via ISPA) some-one should.

Edited by deleted (Fri 16-Sep-11 16:55:37)

Thanks for the advice, will fire them an email. I'll post back here with the outcome.

As predicted, no WBC and no LLU, apart from TalkTalk! The exchange is tiny:

Serves (approx):
1,952 residential premises
96 non-residential premises.

The line is quick when it works, and 6/7 megabit throughput is more than enough for our needs. It would indeed be very rapid on ADSL2+, it's so short it's an exchange-only line as far as we can tell.

Will be sure to reply with the outcome. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

You're wasting your time trying to get any sense out of Orange - change ISP.

Hi,

Just a quick note to say thanks for the advice, this worked a treat. Got a call within two working days of sending the email, and was referred to the third line UK based support, who arranged an engineer visit straight away, after seeing the level of diagnostics we'd already performed.

Will post back once the engineer visit has occurred. We may be over the Orange hurdle but we now have the Openreach one. That said, the line is really really bad now:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2528 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 17.5 dB 7.0 dB
Noise Margin 6.0 dB 9.0 dB

And the voice service is practically unusable. Lets hope it stays that way for when the engineer arrives!

Tea and biscuits at the ready!

Typical... the day before the engineer came the problem cleared up. It's back in sync at 8128/448 now and the voice service is good. Engineer changed the NTE5 anyway, but all other tests passed. It's been solid for around three days now.

Guess we'll just have to keep an eye on it, and if it does fail again, lets hope it gets real bad.

Thanks again for the advice, it was really helpful.

Hi jaffa_cat,
Glad to hear that your speeds are on the up, sounds a bit suspicious that they should magically sort themselves out the day before an engineer visit, or perhaps someone visited the exchange or manually reset your connection without saying anything........but then BT wouldn't do something underhand like that would they.......LOL
BT were to investigate both contention and capacity issues on my line and responded by..... cutting my speed during off peak times. There was nothing wrong with my off peak speeds, no packet collisions, attenuation was correct however my speeds plunged by around 66% during the peak period times. I had this narrowed down to contention (a fact BT have long known about on my exchange, since at least 2009 to be precise when I first brought it to their attention via Sky) and the fact that there are capacity issues which were publicised in a document on BTs own web site. Orange and BT advised me to log speed checks on speedtester.bt.com which could be checked by both Orange and BT. I have long been suspicious of Bts speedtester and I was proven correct tonight as my partner noticed some severe slowdown and while the Bt speedchecker reported that everything was OK, both thinkbroadband and broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk showed speeds that were a third of my usual speeds. Just dropped another email to the exec office and will wait to see what happens. I am now seriously considering involving both companies ADR and the media because this nonsense needs to stop and stop now. Or perhaps I am better remaining a total thorn in the side of both BT and Orange as my complaints require a large amount of manpower in order for both these companies to louse up so completely, perhaps I will just keep complaining for a bit longer.... Rant Over. Sorry folks. Once again happy to hear that your speeds are on the up jaffa_cat.

Just as a followup, line went iffy again. Seemed to be a lot worse this time, and we were confident we could reproduce the issue when the engineer arrived. Engineer booked, arrived, saw fault occurring and swapped the pair from the pole to the exchange (it's not on a green cab!).

Line is now solid again, and the stats are better than they've ever been:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 12.1 dB 4.0 dB
Noise Margin 13.5 dB 26.0 dB

I've got a feeling it's been failing for a while, it's just that the line is so good it's been hanging on in there.

It's also worth saying that since we've been speaking to the guys in the UK, Orange have been fantastic, despite their first line being totally useless.

Thanks once again for the advice given in this thread, we're so pleased to finally have this sorted.