Don't want to leave Orange (yes, really!) But NO CHOICE!?

Hello all.

I hope someone (ideally from Orange higher technical support levels?) can help me on this...

Background:
I've been a Freeserve customer since day 1. Never had a problem with the service and always been a happy Orange customer!! Currently (well, until recently) on their Home Max 8Mb ADSL1 package with the Livebox and free second VoIP line 2.
A few weeks ago I happened to do a BT speed test and noticed that my local exchange has now been upgraded to 21CN. At last!
I had hoped that the line might just regrade itself but seeing as the modem was still syncing at its usual (rock solid) 7616Kbps - and not being sure if my original spec Livebox was even capable of ADSL2+ - I went out and bought a nice new Billion ADSL wireless router!
Unfortunately, the Billion still gave me the same sync speed despite the ability to hard set it to negotiate ADSL2+ (it auto falls back!)
Ok, I thought, perhaps I will need to phone Orange and have them re-grade the line... Oh dear! I won't bore you with the dialogue from the many phone calls I've had with their L1 technical support - except perhaps for the funniest of the comments I had from one chap: "Sir, please trust me when I tell you that the 4Mbps speed that "speedtest.net" is telling you is the very fastest that your line can achieve - and this is much faster than most people are getting over there so you should count yourself very lucky!"
Anyway, the upshot is that I stuck with it but at the point of requesting my MAC code I finally got to speak with someone on this planet (and in the UK) whom convinced me that regrading onto a new package (albeit at £5 per month more expensive and a new 18month contract) would see me with a shiny new "award winning" Brightbox modem, 17Mbps download speed etc. etc.

Well it didn't!!

Issue:
10 days in to my "line re-training" period and here we are... New Brightbox still happily syncs at the same old 7616Kbps and at ADSL1. From my admittedly un-savvy research on here I believe I have what's called a "stuck profile" ?... But Orange now insist this is not the case and my line is simply not capable of any quicker speeds! Can this be true? I don't think so! My neighbours on the same exchange get ADSL2+ speeds of 11Mbps plus!...

Anyway, I believe this forum is my last port of call before having to resort to jumping ship to another ISP. Must it really come to that? I've always been a happy Orange customer and would like to stay with them, but it's really looking to me like their incompetent support regime is going to lose them a previously happy and model customer!

You just can't help some companies, no matter how hard you try to do their jobs for them!

He's my Exchange and Brightbox modem ADSL line stats - in case it helps:-

Line Status: SHOWTIME
Link Type: Interleaved Path
Protocol: PPPoA
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Encapsulation: VC MUX
Operation Mode: G992.1(G.DMT)
Upstream: 448 (Kbps.)
Downstream: 7616 (Kbps.)
Noise Margin: 25.0db (upstream) 16.3db (downstream)
Line Attenuation: 11.0db (upstream) 14.0db (downstream)
Output Power: 11.9dBm (near end indicator) 19.7dBm (far end indicator)
Fast Path FEC Correction: NA (near end indicator) NA (far end indicator)
Interleaved Path FEC Correction: NA (near end indicator) 4 (far end indicator)

BT Wholesale ADSL Availability Checker

For Telephone Number 01630xxxxxx on Exchange MARKET DRAYTON

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 8Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 7Mbps and 8Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 17Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 10Mbps and 19.5Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 1.5Mbps and downstream line speed of 17Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 10Mbps and 19.5Mbps.


I hope someone on here can assist? Would be very much appreciated.

Thanks, Moz.

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Jun-12 10:53:40)

Hi, sorry to have to tell you, from your router stats you are still on 8 Meg ADSL Max and not 21CN ADSL2+ 20 Meg.

Line Status: SHOWTIME
Link Type: Interleaved Path
Operation Mode: G992.1(G.DMT)
Upstream: 448 (Kbps.)
Downstream: 7616 (Kbps.)
Noise Margin: 25.0db (upstream) 16.3db (downstream)
Line Attenuation: 11.0db (upstream) 14.0db (downstream)
Output Power: 11.9dBm (near end indicator) 19.7dBm (far end indicator)

Operation Mode: G992.1(G.DMT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSL

What is your exchange? http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Hi, Thanks for replying. I was just editing the first post with the exchange info as you replied!
Anyway, its MARKET DRAYTON - but see post 1.

Cheers, Moz.

Hi, are you sure your exchange has been fully completed the change over to 21CN WBC Status RFS date set : 30/06/2012

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNMD

And what�s this 18 months contract it should be 12 months contract with Orange, were you talking to an agent or something?

You need XRaySpeX to help you with this one when he comes along.

Morning Moz

If you go to this page; and key in the appropriate information, you will see that the Market Drayton Exchange is still being upgraded with an RFS date of 30th June 2012-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php


Status
ADSL enabled: June 25, 2003
DSL Max enabled: March 31, 2006
21CN WBC (Broadband) RFS date 30.06.12
21CN due : (PSTN) info N/A
FTTC Not available
SDSL enabled : Not Enabled
Broadband Access� Market 2
BTw Pricing Band Band E

I used the MD Golf Club Phone Number, so the Estimated Speeds further down the Results Page are unlikely to apply to your line.

============================

My Exchange is in a similar situation with the same RFS (? Released For Service ?) date.

I also have been with Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange since the early days, not quite Day 1.

About 2 weeks back, I contacted Orange on a different matter.

The "agent" said in passing that I should be getting "up to 17 Mbps"; and I had to point out to him that the RFS was the "end of June".

However, he did arrange for a Btight Box to be dispatched, which arrived a week later, Friday 8th June.

I have installed that, noting a slight improvement of of around 300 Kbps typically.

Then on Thursday, 14th June, Orange contacted me about upgrading to "17 Mbps", as from their statistics, my line was capable etc.

Again I had to remind both the agent and his manager that the Exhange RFS was "30.06.2012"; and that therefore an actual significant speed improvement was most unlikely before that date; and that it may not occur until a few days after.

Both eventually agreed that I was correct in my interpretation of the RFS etc.

==========================

To avoid having to change the WiFi configuration of some of the equipment connected through the old Live Box Router, after installing and setting up the new Bright Box and adding it as the main WiFi source, I connected the Live Box "Red"/Main Ethernet Port to one of the four subsidiary ports on the Bright Box.

This has proven to be very successful, the WiFi printer working fine through that old Router.

I have also tested the two portable PCs through both the old Live Box and the new Bright Box, without any problems.

Thus my extended family who had set up various devices on the old Router WiFi, can continue to use them without alteration.

It also opens up the possibility of re-siting one or both Routers, to give better WiFi coverage generally.

Thanks to both eckiedoo and E7R for the replies...

But I beg to differ and perhaps suggest that both of the checkers that you have each suggested are just slow to be updated? Samknows, particularly, has been quoted elsewhere as being slow to update.

The BT Wholesale ADSL checker at:-

https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/B...

.. clearly states that "...your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 17Mbps..."

Second, the Orange "agent" at the disconnections department was able to establish that the exchange has indeed already been updated - despite the Exchange RFS date - which, again I believe can be inaccurate.

Finally, if further proof is needed, my neighbour two doors down has recently migrated to Orange broadband and his Brightbox happily syncs at around 11Mbps - I know, because I set it all up for him! I'm not a ADSL "expert" by any stretch, but I've worked in IT for 20 years so I do know enough to get by!

Thanks again for the replies so far though.

Moz.

Agreed that the updates to those sites can be slow/delayed etc.

However, the ADSL Availability Checker does say "support" rather than "supplied" or similar.

And that qualifier applies to all of the three ADSL Speed Ranges given-

"up to 2Mbps"

"range between 7Mbps and 8Mbps"

"range between 10Mbps and 19Mbps"

Why mention the others?

Possibly it would be useful if you were to carry out that "ADSL Checker" test again on your neighbour's already upgraded line, it would help fill in the picture.

Nowhere does it state the speed that the line is "supplied" with at the instant.


That is, it seems our lines would have to be tranferred in some manner from the older "up to 8 Mbps" equipment to the new "up to 17 Mbps" system.

I don't know whether that has to be done physically during a visit to the Exchange; or can be done remotely; but it does imply some sort of delay, which would include simple order processing etc.

My experience to date suggests that for my local Exchange, such changes tend to take place on a Thursday.

I do recollect that my first BB connection was established in 2004 at "tp to 2Mbps"; and the upgrade to "up to 8 Mbps" in 2006 occurred without any intervention or request from me. It simply "happened".

I have also been unable to establish what the maximum operational speed of the old Livebox is, although during many tests over the years, I have seen transitory readings of 15Mbps and occasionally 25Mbps, as the tests proceeded.

Similarly, I had 30 years IT and Networking experience, Current Loop, RS232, Ethernet (including Vampire Taps), RJ11 etc (apart from mainly programming etc); but like yourself, have yet to get fully to grips with ADSL etc.

In reply to a post by E7er:

You need XRaySpeX to help you with this one when he comes along.

Thanks but I'm not sure there is much I can add that y'all have not already said.

Except on the Q of whether exchange has been WBC'ed. Despite SamKnows saying it won't be till 30 June, the BT Availability Checker does say ADSL2+ is currently supported, using exactly the same phraseology as ADSL Max which we know is available. Had ADSL2+ not been available the Availability Checker would not have listed it.

The fact is you are still on ADSL Max while being sold an ADSL2+ product, on which your line is capable of 21 Meg. There is also the Q of the contract length which should be 12 m. What package are you said to be on and how much are you paying? Have a look at Your Member's Account on their website.

I have no doubt, from my dealings with them, that many of their 1st line support are liars and have no ADSL knowledge. You need your case escalated to their Fault Mgt Team, who are mostly good. Failing that you need to lodge a formal written complaint under their Complaints Procedure.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 16-Jun-12 20:25:03)

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

That is, it seems our lines would have to be transferred in some manner from the older "up to 8 Mbps" equipment to the new "up to 17 Mbps" system.

Yes, but don't expect it to happen auto; you need to take out a new contract.

It can be done by suitable Orange staff throwing a "switch" at their desk when you agree a new contract.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I do recollect that my first BB connection was established in 2004 at "up to 2Mbps"; and the upgrade to "up to 8 Mbps" in 2006 occurred without any intervention or request from me. It simply "happened".

Not to me going thro' a similar transition. I had to take out new contracts albeit at cheaper fees with 1 to 3 months free, as I was still on higher legacy fees.

Hi I am also a long term Freeserve to Orange survivor with similar thoughts. Was going to wait until fibre optic but having migrated second phone line to BT rest will follow shortly. Shame.

Agreed that for this upgrade, a new contract is required; and I have just checked progress from ordering on Thursday, 14th June.

Green - "regrade requested"

Green - "regrade in progress"

<Blank> - "regrade is completed"

"22 June" - "estimated completion"


That "estimated completion" date ties in with my previous experience of scheduled work in the local exchange being carried out on a Thursday, 22nd June being Friday.


----------------------------------

That automatic upgrade from 2Mbps was back in 2006.

Last year, about February 2011" I got a reduction in fees, with no variation in service, this reduction originating at the Orange end; and starting a fresh 18 month contract.


This year's increase to "up to 17Mhbps" again originates from an Orange phone call, offering both the improvement and fee reduction; otherwise I would have waited until about August and the expiry of that 18 month contract.

This week's contract is for 12 months.

Not sure if there is a free period with it!!

I presume you are checking progress in the "your account" section of the members area at the Orange web site? Well that page for me has never said anything but - you have no orders in progress at this time (or similar). Likewise for the page to track open faults.

Consequently I do not know yet the name of the new package they are putting me on. It was the agent in disconnections that mentioned the new 18 month contract. And now that I dig a little deeper, I cannot quite understand where their pricing has come from...

I am currently on (moving from) what is termed on my bill: The "converged home max" product - paying £23.49 per month - a discounted rate for being an Orange mobile customer with a contract, not PAYG.

The new product that I agreed to is supposed to be a discounted rate for me being an existing customer - of £28.00 per month! Down from £30-odd something, can't remember what he said. But now that I've had a look in more detail at Orange's current BB offerings, I can't help thinking that this so-called "best deal" is rather uncompetitive!...

Hmmm.. Not happy!

21CN is available from the Market Drayton exchange with the xilo/uno "Home" products. I checked it out with them today (17-06-12) and will probably switch from uno SMPF to 21CN (probably the 25GB peak and off-peak unmetered - 200GB fair usage check - Home product) now that the Drayton exchange is enabled.

A £48 migration fee for me though, but I would probably want to come off partial LLU at some point in the future anyway

Yes, that was from the "my account" page.

Regarding the "contracr", charges etc, I think you should first compile a list of the apparent present situation, inclufing how it compares with your neighbour and his details, if he is willing to divulge them.

Then get on to the normal Orange "Help" Desk for an explanation.

If that fails to provide satifactory explanations etc-

http://www.ceoemail.com/

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Likewise for the page to track open faults.

I logged a fault recently and that page said something like "There are errors on the system, come back later" LOL! Now reverted to "You have no faults logged".

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Consequently I do not know yet the name of the new package they are putting me on.

Look under "change your package".

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

The new product that I agreed to is supposed to be a discounted rate for me being an existing customer - of £28.00 per month!

Must be their BB + anytime mobile calls from your landline, which you may not need, at £15 + £13.50 line rental. You could get just BB + Anytime landline calls for just £23.50 total.

When I joined Orange in April 2010, I was getting 9mb download speed from them, after being estimated 8mb at signup - I was quite happy.
As soon as BT announced they were going to upgrade the exchange to 21cn (around about March 2011), Orange took their LLU out of the exchange and the download rate went down to just 4mb.
Our exchange was upgraded to 21cn in August 2011 and all other providers were offering 14mb download. I asked Orange in September for a regrade to the higher speeds and was promised it would be automatic. I asked again in November and they fobbed me off saying that I would have to renew a contract with them if I wanted a regrade, I told them I would cancel when FTTC became available (estimate March 2012) so I didn't want to be tied into a new contract with them, but that I expected to have at least the speed I was promised when I signed up (in the times of LLU).

Well three weeks ago, Orange phoned me up and said I could have an upgrade on the line if I wanted now, and should get speeds of 16mb. This was just a few days before FTTC became available to order. Needless to say, I declined, and I'm now looking to get fibre, but meanwhile, have been on 4mb IP profile with Orange for the last 15 months, even though 21cn has been available for the last 9 months.

Don't count on them giving you a free regrade with no strings attached. They certainly didn't with me.

In reply to a post by piratewolf:

Don't count on them giving you a free regrade with no strings attached.

OP isn't! If you read, he's paying extra and a new contract for an upgrade but it hasn't happened as promised

Apologies, I hadn't read it entirely correctly.

In my situation, we had received emails from Orange saying that the network was being updated and that they would switch us over automatically (i.e. taking out their LLU equipment and moving on 21cn), but it never happened, despite us having signed up for what was promised to be an 8+ meg connection at the time.

I guess my situation is different because I didn't get (nor still haven't got) the top speed later during my contract that I was promised when I signed up - the OP has been with Orange/Wanadoo/whoever since before those speeds were available therefore they don't seem to be obligated to provide more than the initial speed their contract entailed (possibly only 2meg).

In reply to a post by piratewolf:

the OP has been with Orange/Wanadoo/whoever since before those speeds were available therefore they don't seem to be obligated to provide more than the initial speed their contract entailed (possibly only 2meg).

Not after he takes a new contract; anything previous is ancient history.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Likewise for the page to track open faults.

I logged a fault recently and that page said something like "There are errors on the system, come back later" LOL! Now reverted to "You have no faults logged".

Exactly my experience, I just thought it was a geniune page error. Laughable.

Edited by deleted (Sun 17-Jun-12 20:18:05)

In reply to a post by 4M2:

<snip> ...switch from uno SMPF to 21CN... <snip> ...but I would probably want to come off partial LLU at some point in the future anyway

Hi, thanks for this. I had to Google it, but do I understand by the above that you are currently on a kind of halfway LLU - with broadband via LLU (Uno?) and landline via BT or similar? Is that what SMPF is??

Also, is there any real difference between LLU ADSL2+ and 21CN ADSL2+?? I wonder because TalkTalk's ADSL checker reports my line as being able to achieve "up to" 14Mbps whereas other non-LLU providers claim anywhere between 17Mbps and 21Mbps! I ask because I too am considering moving to a TT reseller - adsl24.co.uk actually. (Uno's web site just says "coming soon" or some such... not particularly inspiring?)

Thanks, Moz.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Consequently I do not know yet the name of the new package they are putting me on.

Look under "change your package".

Ha.. under there it just says:-

We're unable to offer you a regrade online.



----------------

I've also received an email reply to my written complaint (take a deep breath!) :-

Thanks for getting in touch and for letting us know that you feel you're
not receiving the fastest broadband service. I can understand your
concerns and have noted your account with the information you've
supplied me with.

We have a system that allows us to check our customer?s telephone line
to see what connection speeds we can supply them with. When checking
your telephone number the following message appears:



Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line
indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband
service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated
ADSL Max broadband line speed of 7.5Mbps; typically the line speed would
range between 6.5Mbps and 8Mbps.

The actual stable line speed supportable will be determined during the
first 10 days of use. This speed may change over time, to ensure line
stability is maintained.


As you can appreciate, we're providing you with the correct speed. We
cannot increase this as it would mean that you would not receive a
stable internet service.

On 15 June 2012 my colleague called to make you aware of the above. If
you decide to migrate to another Internet Service Provider, then we'll
be sorry to see you go. I apologise for any incorrect and conflicting
information you've been provided and hope that this hasn't caused you
too much inconvenience.

You don't need to worry about your new contract period because your
account has been noted confirming that this is void. If you were to
migrate then you won't incur a cancellation fee.

To request a migration code or to check what alternative cheaper
packages we can regrade your account to, please call us on the 0844
number provided below.

Thanks once again.

Kind Regards
Laura
Broadband Support
REF:WOOBB

Moz,

Yes voice landline contract with BT and partial LLU broadband from xilo/uno (Pro 24 75GB).

The broadband service from xilo/uno is really excellent, although a little expensive. I'm at the Little Drayton end of the town with adsl2+ attenuations of 21/37dB, sync at 1022/13657K interleaved, SN margins 10/6dB and throughput is always ~860/11350K. Also tickets are answered quickly by very knowledgeable and helpful staff

Possibly BT 21CN might be a little more conservative when setting a stable line speed than LLU but more knowledgeable others in this forum will probably be able to answer your question about what the real differences are better than me.

Are you putting your telephone number into the uno checker http://www.xilo.net/adsl_broadband/#home > home, office or pro tabs > Sign up > Broadband Availability Checker?

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Look under "change your package".

Ha.. under there it just says:- We're unable to offer you a regrade online.

Doesn't it say at the top "Your current home package is: xxxxxxx"?

Funny that Laura's slant on the BT Checker does not include the ADSL2+ bit as yours did. Has she redacted it?

LLU ADSL2+ and 21CN ADSL2+ are the same technology, but it's down to how individual ISPs manage it.

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

I wonder because TalkTalk's ADSL checker reports my line as being able to achieve "up to" 14Mbps

Ofcom has recently ordered ISPs not to quote max speed but what many of their users can get.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Doesn't it say at the top "Your current home package is: xxxxxxx"?

Nope!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Funny that Laura's slant on the BT Checker does not include the ADSL2+ bit as yours did. Has she redacted it?

I thought that... though I can't imagine she would have had the training to concoct such an elaborate scheme such as cutting and pasting! hahaha

Now cc:'d complaint to the CEO email address.. for the hell of it!

Good on ya! Laura's being dishonest!

Hello Mozzer,

Can you send me your details in a private message and I will get this looked at again for you, please include your broadband line number and a mobile number.

Best Regards

Gavin

Hi Mozzerr, Laura is being dishonest, she has cut and past some of that from my account details LOL�

Your current home package is:

Broadband and Off Peak Calls - with your Orange mobile phone - £5.00 a month plus £13.50 Orange line rental (total £18.50 a month), up to 2 Meg speed, wireless router, unlimited usage allowance, evening and weekend UK landline telephone calls to 01, 02, 03, 0845 and 0870 numbers included.

We've checked out your line and your estimated speed is 7.5 Meg.

Did you know that speeds in excess of 2 Meg are only available in certain areas? Top speeds vary significantly, particularly according to how far away you live from the exchange. The speed you actually get can also vary depending on the quality of your line, the wiring in your house, the time of day and even the weather.

In my Account Statements it has�

Account Charges Home Max 20mb Monthly Price £18.50

Thank you Gavin.
PM sent.

(I've also had a response to the CEO email... Which looks a little more promising than the previous CS reply, but it's going on about "if there is capacity at the exchange..." then they might be able to do something... But to be honest, that doesn't really stack up for me as a plausible excuse?)

In reply to a post by E7er:

In my Account Statements it has�

Account Charges Home Max 20mb Monthly Price £18.50

Most interesting, thanks E7er!

While you're at it, I wonder if Gavin from Orange can also sort out why I was asked to pay a whole £10 per month more for a similar package - but with my speed still stuck on 6Mb (actual)??

Edit: Think I just noticed the difference, I was on Anytime free calls to landlines (I think!) But who knows.... Anyway, let's get the ADSL speed sorted first!!

Edited by deleted (Wed 20-Jun-12 00:35:40)

My billing also says:

Account Charges Home Select 20mb Monthly Price £ 12.260

despite the lower speed under "Change My Package".

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Edit: Think I just noticed the difference, I was on Anytime free calls to landlines (I think!)

Yes and as I pointed out 3 days ago you are now on Anytime free calls to mobiles as well.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Yes and as I pointed out 3 days ago you are now on Anytime free calls to mobiles as well.

Hmm.. Wasn't that just your assumption though - based upon the price? Although I can't see any package that adds up to £28.00 (exactly, not £28.50) which is what I discussed with the agent at the time of being sent the new Brightbox.

Anyway, until I get a new bill I don't think anyone knows exactly what's going on. In fact, at the current point in time I've been told that the new package has been removed from my account and that I'm back on the old package - but MINUS the free VOIP second line!

So now I suppose I am paying the original £23.49 but with no daytime free calls option since the Brightbox doesn't support the second line and the agent told me that once the second line has been deleted from the account it cannot be reinstated!

Think I will reinstate the old Livebox and see if the VOIP still works...

No news from Gavin / UKDoc yet either...

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

In reply to a post by E7er:

In my Account Statements it has�

Account Charges Home Max 20mb Monthly Price £18.50

Most interesting, thanks E7er!

While you're at it, I wonder if Gavin from Orange can also sort out why I was asked to pay a whole £10 per month more for a similar package - but with my speed still stuck on 6Mb (actual)??

Edit: Think I just noticed the difference, I was on Anytime free calls to landlines (I think!) But who knows.... Anyway, let's get the ADSL speed sorted first!!

Hi Mozzerr, yes! You let the agent talk you into broadband and anytime UK calls and mobile calls package�

unlimited broadband
inclusive 500 minutes to mobile from your home phone
inclusive anytime UK calls
inclusive 30 international destinations
£15 per month.
+ landline rental £13.50 = £28.50
Convenient 12 months contract.

I don�t understand your 18 months contract though.

https://broadband.orange.co.uk/home

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Wasn't that just your assumption

Deduction!

Moz,

Just out of interest I gave Orange a call to see what the deal might be from the Market Drayton exchange:

For unlimited broadband £10 per month (not an orange mobile customer) and £13.50 per month for free evening and weekend calls on a 12 month contract. BUT a £10 per month surcharge for something to do with BT and the Drayton exchange that all ISP's except BT and TalkTalk have to charge ??? This surcharge will be lifted at some point in the future but no date could be given - could mean paying £10 per month extra for 12 months! I didn't ask about speeds once the £10 per month surcharge was mentioned! Couldn't get any sense out of any possible issues regarding migration from partial LLU but was informed that only a MAC key would be needed???

So that would be £10 + £13.50 + £10 = £33.50 per month. £33.50 per month is approximately the same as BT free evening and weekend calls on a 12 month contract and uno 21CN 25GB (unlimited off peak) on a monthly deal.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

BUT a £10 per month surcharge for something to do with BT and the Drayton exchange that all ISP's except BT and TalkTalk have to charge ???

Ah, good investigation! That's the surcharge that Orange adds for "customers living in non-Orange Broadband network areas".

I'm pretty sure that they define these as those exchanges where Orange was not LLU'ed in the past and not just 20CN exchanges. Tho' they might change this in the future.

I think Plusnet lifted their surcharge on Market 2 exchanges last year though...although, of course, there was never Plusnet LLU at the Drayton exchange but TT LLU was/is available.

The diff is that PN have a published definition of where their surcharge applies; Orange don't.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Wasn't that just your assumption

Deduction!

Wot the 50p? That would be the Orange agent's deduction!

Well, I really thought between the CEO email reply and Gavin/UKDoc's intervention I would have had a resolution by now!

Not that Orange seem to care if I stay or go but, to me this: TalkTalk Deal looks quite tempting:-

£22.25 per month for:-
Line Rental
Anytime calls to landlines included
500mins per month to all mobiles (free for first 3 months)
ADSL2+ LLU "upto 14Mb"
Unlimited Downloads 24/7
12 month contract
Free router etc. etc.

Package is "Essentials Broadband & Phone" @ £17.75 then add on "Anytime UK calls boost" @ £4.50 = £22.25

I really think that after all this hassle Orange need to get a bit closer to the above deal...

(Still not re-tried the old Livebox - working from home today so need the 'net live)

Hi Mozzerr, it does look you have been charged that extra £10 per month, because your exchange is not deregulated it being market 2 exchange.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNMD

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/faq/about#faq-8

What is the OFCOM market classification?
In May 2008 Ofcom announced that they would be deregulating 70% of the UK's broadband market. The full 115 page document outlining the reasoning and methodology can be found here.
Within this document Ofcom has defined four classifications to be applied to exchange areas (see page 32). These are:
Market 1 - Exchanges where the incumbent operator (BT Wholesale) is the only provider of broadband services
Market 2 - Exchanges where two or three operators provided broadband services (including BT)
Market 3 - Exchanges where four or more operators provided broadband services
Hull area - Exchanges in Hull are served only by KC (Kingston)
The Market 3 exchanges are the ones that the deregulation applies to. Ofcom deemed that there was sufficient competition in these areas to keep prices at a reasonable level whilst also driving innovation.

My exchange market 3 http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/CMKNO

Following on 4M2's findings, I now believe that your trouble stems from Orange still counting your exchange as a "non-Orange Broadband network areas" because they never did LLU there, despite BTw now having 21CN ADSL2+ there. I doubt it has anything to do with OFCOM market classifications as Orange did have LLU at some Market 2 exchanges.

The only way you will get ADSL2+ and speeds of 17-21 Meg at your exchange in the foreseeable future is to switch to BT Retail, Plusnet or TT (or resellers).

Hello Mozzer,

I am establishing the facts around your issue and will be in touch on Thursday. I will also give you the correct information around Markets and IPstream and WBC.

Regards

TT = full LLU - are you sure you want that?

I forgot to say that Orange are not being honest with you by not revealing that you can't get > 8 Meg cuz your exchange is "out of their area" ; instead presenting you with misleading redacted info. to "prove" their stance.

Plusnet checker for my Market Drayton phone number and post code:

"Your estimated line speed is 7Mb.

However, it could vary between 5.5Mb and 12Mb, depending on conditions."

Seems to suggest that 21CN adsl2+ would be available from Plusnet?

Where exchange is 21CN, PN can do ADSL2+ whenever BT Retail can.

As it's Market 2, PN impose no surcharge they would do in Market 1.

In that case I might go back to PN - "Extra" with "Pro" add-on and uncapped upload speed (?) could be suitable�£20 or £40 for a router and £25 broadband activation for a monthly deal isn�t so attractive though.

There's John Lewis who sorta repackage PN with extra benefits.

Yes I read about that a few weeks ago in this forum...thanks for reminding me

First though: a guarantee of 21CN would be needed from PN - I had an IP profile of 7150K with them before on adsl1.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I would probably want to come off partial LLU at some point in the future anyway

Why? Full LLU is hard to return.

Sorry I don't really understand: are you suggesting that it is better to remain on partial LLU and shop around for resellers until FTTC eventually arrives at some distant point in the future around here? Certainly wouldn't want to go with TT full LLU at any stage

Ah, I see! You meant come off LLU of any flavour and go on non-LLU = 21CN.

Yes SMPF v 21CN is the dilemma at the Market Drayton exchange (market 2) - not entirely relevant to the OP's issues with Orange though. However I couldn�t establish whether 21CN adsl2+ would be offered by Orange when I called sales - the mention of the £10 surcharge immediately put me off.

Isn't it amazing that, with large ISP's, sales calls are answered immediately yet calls for billing enquires or technical help can take for ever to be answered.

Well, after speaking with Gavin and also a L3 tech support person (Rob) at some length this afternoon i can tell you that Orange can definitely provide 21CN at the Market Drayton exchange - now.

What package i eventually end up on is still under debate... but I am assured that I should be able to achieve a realistic downstream figure of around 17Mbps.

I will be switched over within the next 3 days, I'm told.

The original issue came about because of a glitch whereby I was ordering a regrade to 21CN based upon the fact the exchange had been enabled, but the Orange internal order to move my line from Ipstream to 21CN was stalled - because of the actual Exchange go-live date for 21CN having been declared as end of June.

Makes sense to me I guess... certainly sounds plausible.

Just a pity it has taken so many hoops and mis-information from L1 support to get to a point where they can supply the 21CN as initially agreed.

In their defense it does sound like Orange are in the process of putting in place measures that will improve what happens under similar circumstances in the future.

I will report back when the switch over happens.

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

I will also give you the correct information around Markets and IPstream and WBC.

You'll give us too, I hope? It's time this was clarified in respect of Orange.

You should get a downstream sync of 21344Kbps with an IP Profile of 18000Kbps based on your previous adsl1 downstream attenuation of 14dB (14db + 3dB = 17dB for adsl2+) see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php So 17Mbps sounds like a fair estimate of downstream throughput.

Best of luck

Well..... Modem is still syncing at 7616Kbps downstream, G.DMT adsl mode, Interleaved path.

Bit sick of rebooting the darn thing now!.....

So much for 21CN....

... But at least my phone line package has changed - and calls to landlines from my one and only line now seem to be free!?..

Someone called "Lydia in London" was supposed to be sorting the "complex" issue of my transition to 21CN. I won't lower the tone with masogenist comments, but I still think women have smaller feet for a reason!!!

Gavin, if you are reading this an update would be appreciated?

Moz.

Moz,

Can you still leave Orange without any penalties? Think I would be asking for a MAC key now...

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Well..... Modem is still syncing at 7616Kbps downstream, G.DMT adsl mode, Interleaved path.

Bit sick of rebooting the darn thing now!.....

So much for 21CN....

... But at least my phone line package has changed - and calls to landlines from my one and only line now seem to be free!?..

Someone called "Lydia in London" was supposed to be sorting the "complex" issue of my transition to 21CN. I won't lower the tone with masogenist comments, but I still think women have smaller feet for a reason!!!

Gavin, if you are reading this an update would be appreciated?

Moz.

HI Mozzerr, we�ve all had problems when first changed over to 21CN WBC. My connection started off with fast path then dropped to interleaved, I found the connection was more stable on interleaved and set your router MTU 1500 it helped with my line.

Your sync should be G.DMT ADSL2+ mode, Interleaved path for WBC in the Bright Box router using the hidden parameters page http://192.168.13.251/xc324m12sdlo.htm change the operation Mode from "Automatic" to G.992.5 (ADSL2+)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Where exchange is 21CN, PN can do ADSL2+ whenever BT Retail can.

As it's Market 2, PN impose no surcharge they would do in Market 1.

Plusnet don't offer uncapped upload speeds for adsl2+ at the moment - a 448K upstream sync is the best that sales can offer at the moment from my exchange. Estimated downstream line speeds for me from the Market Drayton exchange would be 7Mbps for adsl2+ or 5Mbps for adsl1.

Currently sync at 1022K upstream and 13Mbps downstream with uno SMPF!

It's me again

In reply to a post by E7er:

Your sync should be G.DMT ADSL2+ mode, Interleaved path for WBC

It's only the DLM that decides whether Interleaved is ON or OFF, neither you or Orange can control it. I'm on Fast Path. You are on Interleaved cuz DLM found your line wasn't stable enough w/out it.

No need to switch Operation Mode via hidden page; "Automatic" will pick up ADSL2+ if Orange has activated it (and won't if they haven't).

Afternoon Mozzer.

Update on my corresponding upgrade.

Following up on the progress of my order.

Friday, 8th June 2012 - Brightbox received and installed.

Thursday, 14th June � Ordered upgrade to �up to 17 Mbps� and transfer of landline to Orange etc

(There seems to be some confusion witrh the Orange staff. Virtually all have referred to "up to 17 Mbps", whilst in one part of "Your Account", it states "up to 20 Mbps".)

Intervening days � Orange �Your Account� showing two green bars, third blank bar and completion date of 22nd June; whilst RFS date on Samknows and Kitz was 30th June.

Tuesday, 19th June � SMS Voicemail message from BT; but nothing significant mentioned.

Thursday, 21st June � BT letter simply stating that a change-over was occurring, on 2nd July. This would appear to be when administratively, the Landline Admin is passed over to Orange.

Friday, 22nd June 10:30 am approx � Without any immediate warning, physical changes were carried out, taking about 15 minutes.

Brightbox synced at about 12 Mbps, improving gradually. Now usually running at around 14 to 15 Mbps; but at about 7am this morning, Wednesday 27th June, was under 1 Mbps! Have not checked stats.

Since the changeover, have not been able to access Orange �Your Account� properly � �An unexpected error has occurred�.

Operationally to date, the Broadband upgrade seems to be successful.

So now waiting to see what happens on Monday.

Whilst using BTW Beta Tester, I have noted transient speeds of up to 49 Mbps.

The highest on the TBB Tester was 16 Mbps - strangely from the WiFi-connected Windows 7 Laptop, whilst the WiFi Netbook on XP has generally been around 9 Mbps.

The Ethernet cable-connected Tower has been in the range 14 Mbps to 15 Mbps.

What are your router stats?

In reply to a post by E7er:

in the Bright Box router using the hidden parameters page http://192.168.13.251/xc324m12sdlo.htm change the operation Mode from "Automatic" to G.992.5 (ADSL2+)

Ooo.. hidden page! Didn't know about that.

Unfortunately, forcing it to ADSL2+ simply results in the modem being unable to sync at all. Proves I'm still on Ipstream though! Putting the Operation Mode back to "Automatic" just gives me the same old stats:-

Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 00:06:22
Downstream Rate: 7616kbps
Upstream Rate: 448kbps
Internet IP Address: 95.144.57.96
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 25.0 dB 15.8 dB
Line Attenuation 11.0 dB 14.0 dB

Sigh.

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Unfortunately, forcing it to ADSL2+ simply results in the modem being unable to sync at all.

Exactly! Confirms why you shouldn't be messing with those withdrawn and hidden pages. There's nowt useful on any of them.

EDIT: Other than, when you are on ADSL2+, seeing what it's like on G.DMT or ADSL2 on long lines.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Wed 27-Jun-12 19:55:13)

Hello,

Your migration date is 28-Jun-12, tomorrow. Apologies, I was told you had been advised of the date of migration.

I'll check your line tomorrow.

Regards

Gavin

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

Apologies, I was told you had been advised of the date of migration.

Hi Gavin, I think Rob might have mentioned a migration date but I didn't note it down because I understood him to say that I could be migrated any time "up to" the date he mentioned - and that often the transfer would be sooner than by the proposed date.

So apologies on my part if I got that wrong...

Let's see what happens today then. Working from home so I should be able to experience the transition first hand!

Moz.

Woo Hoooooo!! Result!!!

Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 01:27:29
Downstream Rate: 22954kbps
Upstream Rate: 440kbps ** shouldn't this be faster??

Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 34.2 dB 6.9 dB
Line Attenuation 7.6 dB 17.0 dB
indicator name near end indicator far end indicator
Output Power 10.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 4403 0
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 10 0
Loss of Signal Defect 2 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 217 0
Error Seconds 37 0

My current speedtest.net result - 19.07Mb/s

So, currently a pretty happy chappie!

... though shouldn't the Upstream rate not be a bit quicker? And what about "interleaved path"? Do I need to request this to be changed to Fast path, or something?

Anyway, Many thanks for everyone's contributions to this thread so far!

Regards,
Moz.

Nice result!

Your Up Sync is being damped by the high NM Orange have you on.

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

And what about "interleaved path"? Do I need to request this to be changed to Fast path, or something?

They won't! It's only the DLM that decides whether Interleaved is ON or OFF, neither you or Orange can control it.

Hello Mozzer,

Good news on you upstream speed, this may vary over the next 10 days during the stabilisation period, to balance speed versus stability.

On your upstream speed this has not actually changed that much from you previous speed of around 440Kbps. X-ray is correct that the high upstream noise margin will be contributing to keeping this upstream speed value low, however this is a property of your line rather than an action taken by Orange.

Interleaving compensates for errors on your line and is placed on the line automatically.

This high noise margin was present before your upgrade. but the source for this may lie inside the home rather than outside, but I have asked the team to look into this and discuss with you.

Regards

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

This high noise margin was present before your upgrade. but the source for this may lie inside the home rather than outside

Yes, the high NM was present before cuz he was on 8 Meg ADSL Max while his line was capable of much more than that. It should be much lower on ADSL2+ with a corresponding increase in Up Sync.

I know Orange can control the Down NM from their desks cuz they have lowered it for me while talking on phone. I would have thought they can control Up NM similarly.

this is starting to sound all so familiar with the upstream speed & noise margin problem I hope you have better luck than me & it does improve for you, just don't hold your breath that's all I can say.

Edited by deleted (Fri 29-Jun-12 18:03:34)

Hi Musicmate,

I noticed you stated you were on v39 on the Netgear firmware. There is a later version (V2.1.00.44_RG) that improves wireless connectivity that was released earlier this year.

Follow this link for download instructions New Netgear firmware

Regards

Hi Gavin I have already done the upgrade a few weeks back it is just my sig was out of date.

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

Good news on you upstream speed...

You meant downstream speed I'm guessing!

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

This high noise margin was present before your upgrade. but the source for this may lie inside the home rather than outside, but I have asked the team to look into this and discuss with you.

Yes, I've had a callback from Rob (L3 support) but he wasn't sure how the source of the high NM can be inside my home. Which I would tend to agree with... The Brightbox is plugged directly into my main (one and only) BT socket - via a single filter box which connects to a single cordless handset. I have no other phones or extension cabling and the ring wire is disconnected inside the BT socket leaving only a two wire set up. Without changing the BT socket out for one of the combined types (I forget the proper terminology) to alleviate the ADSL line filter, I don't think the cabling could possibly be more straight forward!
Rob also mentioned there are some further tweaks he can look at his end but that he preferred to let the 10 day line stabilisation run its course first. Fine by me.
To be honest, I'm not that concerned about the upstream speed, but of course having everything working optimally would be a bonus.
Still quite happy with the outcome so far...

Cheers,
Moz.

Edited by deleted (Sun 01-Jul-12 00:52:24)

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

Without changing the BT socket out for one of the combined types (I forget the proper terminology) to alleviate the ADSL line filter,

= Filtered faceplate. Sometimes more trouble than they are worth, really only cosmetic. Mine shushed until I took it back out for a dangler.

A dangler! I like it! LOL

Incidentally Ray, why would it be that when I test my new super-fast speed using speedtest.net I consistently clock in the region of 18.9 to 19.5Mbps downstream - yet when I use speedtester.bt.com (as requested to by Orange L3) I only ever get around 9Mbps downstream??
My upstream is reported the same on both systems - always 0.37Mbps.

Is this behaviour similar for everyone else?

EDIT:
Incidentally, I'm happy that I *am* getting a true 20Mbps download speed - I have a Linux box on my LAN which can now consistently pull large files from sourceforge at 2.2MBytes/sec (2.5MB/s being the theoretical max for a 20Mbit link - by my calcs!)

Edited by deleted (Sun 01-Jul-12 09:10:21)

So, to summarise my line "training" period so far:-

DATE......Stat.........Upstream.......Downstream

16/6/12...Sync........448 Kbps.......7616 Kbps *(Ipstream)
....".........NM..........25.0 db..........16.3 db
...."........Attenu......11.0 db..........14.0 db

28/6/12...Sync........440 Kbps.......22954 Kbps *(ADSL2+) - About 1.5hrs after changeover
....".........NM..........34.2 db..........6.9 db
...."........Attenu......7.6 db............17.0 db

01/7/12...Sync........444 Kbps.......22673 Kbps *(ADSL2+) - 3 days into training period
....".........NM..........33.3 db..........6.6 db
...."........Attenu......7.0 db............16.5 db

So I suppose you could say the figures are "improving" but my gut feeling is that the Upstream speed isn't going to move much over what it was before - surely it's not going to end up worse than on Ipstream? We shall see!

Moz,

Your downstream numbers look great

I would definitely want something closer to 1 Mbps on the upstream sync though - hope you can get that sorted if it's important for you.

Do you think it's just a SNR margin issue or is there some sort of an upstream cap similar to which Plusnet initially impose on 21CN adsl+2?

ISP is Orange!

My speedtest results today:

• Speedtest.net: 17.5 Meg (tends to measure max and so higher than others)
• TBB: 16.4 Meg (measures avg)
• BT: 16.5 Meg (agrees with TBB but I find can be more variable (lower) than TBB)

In reply to a post by Mozzerr:

DATE......Stat.........Upstream.......Downstream

16/6/12...Sync........448 Kbps.......7616 Kbps *(Ipstream)
....".........NM..........25.0 db..........16.3 db
...."........Attenu......11.0 db..........14.0 db

28/6/12...Sync........440 Kbps.......22954 Kbps *(ADSL2+) - About 1.5hrs after changeover
....".........NM..........34.2 db..........6.9 db
...."........Attenu......7.6 db............17.0 db

01/7/12...Sync........444 Kbps.......22673 Kbps *(ADSL2+) - 3 days into training period
....".........NM..........33.3 db..........6.6 db
...."........Attenu......7.0 db............16.5 db

Ooooo... noticed this morning that the modem has switched from Interleaved to Fast Path! Stats today are:-

DATE......Stat.........Upstream.......Downstream
03/7/12...Sync........443 Kbps.......23577 Kbps *(ADSL2+) - 5 days into training period
....".........NM..........33.1 db..........6.5 db
...."........Attenu......6.8 db............16.0 db

speedtest.net now consistently gives me >20Mbps downstream - but BT speedtester still insists on ~9-10Mbps! Very strange.

I think I will switch modems today to the Billion - that allows me to set my target NM - Unless someone knows of a "hidden page" on the Brightbox for doing the same?

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Jul-12 07:36:00)

To follow up, I have had no real problems during my upgrade from "up to 8 Mbps" to "up ro 17 Mbps", downloading at typically 14.5 Mbps and Uploading at about 777 Kbps.

Ping Latency has also improved.

However, something I have observed is that although the upgrade definitely took place during the morning of Friday, 22nd June 2012 from about 10:30 BST to about 10:45 BST, confirmed by my lady-wife encountering various engineering test messages etc when she tried to use the phone during that period; and also that at 5am on the same morning, TBB Speed Test recorded the last "up to 8 Mbps" Test at about 5 Mbps, then the first "up to 17 Mbps" at about 11am.

When I more recently checked back on the TBB Quality Nomitor, which had been running ineffectively for about one year, showing a broad red band, it suddenly changes to working properly on Saturday, 16th June 2012, about 10:45 (BST assumed), showing the various colours, nd also the peaks within each subsequent day when I am working on-line.

That is, for six days, my line appeared to be technically enabled for the higher speed, yet it was not available to me.

Any explanations?

A follow up from me also.. seeing as the slow upstream sync has finally been rectified this very morning!

My line stats now are as follows:-

Upstream 1231 (Kbps.)
Downstream 24382 (Kbps.)
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 6.5 dB 2.5 dB
Line Attenuation 6.7 dB 16.0 dB

... I take it these stats are about as good as it's possible to get - so I won't be bothering to swap to any other router/modem etc.

Overall, I'm very happy now - and pleased that I didn't have to leave Orange after all.

It might have taken some getting there - but the persistence has proved worth it in the end.

Many thanks to everyone who has participated and helped with my issue. I learned a lot in the process and will be a regular reader of the forum from now on.

Regards, Moz.

Nice result! As good as you'll get!

Hi Mozzer,

Thanks for bearing with me. while I identified the root cause of your issue, which was rectified this morning.

Regards

In reply to a post by UKDoc:

I identified the root cause of your issue

Let us all in on it.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Let us all in on it.

I think he is just referring to the upstream NM being capped by their internal system when transferring from the Ipstream product to 21CN. I doubt we would get anything more detailed than that sort of statement - and maybe anything more specific as a root cause would not mean much to us outside of Orange anyway?
Then again, perhaps some poor intern somewhere is having to spend an afternoon refreshing an online training Powerpoint! LOL.