Upload speed less than expected.

(Originally posted in the main page 'News' but has lost out now the EE story has scrolled off the main page...)

I've just moved to EE after 21 years with Virgin media and their predecessors. Can't say I've seen any issues in the 4 weeks I've been connected to date.
Current TB speed test is https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15040178347...
We were quoted 51.2 down and 14.1 upload but get 59-ish down and 9-ish up. I have yet to figure out how download is much better yet upload is less...
It's a new Brightbox2 and the Openreach engineer installed a 5C socket which I've since changed the faceplate on to the dual outlet, but no difference seen.
Upload is important to me.

Some stats from the router might help interpret things ....
also please describe in detail how you've replaced the socket ?

From my initial order:
Estimated Fibre Download Speed is 51.2 Mb/Sec
Estimated Fibre Upload Speed is 14.1 Mb/Sec
Minimum Fibre Download Speed is 32.20 Mb/Sec
Maximum Fibre Download Speed is 69.40 Mb/Sec
Minimum Fibre Upload Speed is 7.7 Mb/Sec
Maximum Fibre Upload Speed is 20.0 Mb/Sec
Minimum Guaranteed Download Speed is 22.41 Mb/Sec

From the Brightbox 2:
Downstream Rate 60.03 Mbps
Upstream Rate 9.69 Mbps

BTW performance test result:
Download Speed (Mbps): 56.03
Upload Speed (Mbps): 8.19
Ping Latency(ms) : 24.25

Think Broadband speedtest:
Download: 56.4Mbps busrting to 56.5Mbps
Upload: 8.1Mbps bursting to 8.4Mbps
Your latency: 24ms

I just replaced the faceplate of the BT socket, you can buy them online. No screws with a 5C either, just side grips. Single socket out, twin socket in. Connect cables to new socket instead of splitter.

What else would you like from the router?

In reply to a post by TMCR:

I just replaced the faceplate of the BT socket, you can buy them online. No screws with a 5C either, just side grips. Single socket out, twin socket in. Connect cables to new socket instead of splitter.

Do you mean this? https://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/adsl-vdsl-faceplates...

Yes thats the one, got mine on eBay though, complete set with back box and everything but have only used the clip-on faceplate bit.

In reply to a post by TMCR:

From the Brightbox 2:
Downstream Rate 60.03 Mbps
Upstream Rate 9.69 Mbps

What else would you like from the router?

The full router stats & from the test socket.

Time Connected 10:58:50
Downstream Rate 60.23 Mbps
Upstream Rate 9.87 Mbps
------------
DSL STATUS

This page shows information about your DSL connection. If you are using Ethernet Broadband then this page is not applicable.

STATUS
Configured Current
Line Status -- UP
Link Type -- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G.993.2 (VDSL2)
DATA RATE INFORMATION
Upstream 9869 (Kbps)
Downstream 60235 (Kbps)
DEFECT/FAILURE INDICATION
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.0 (dB) 6.2 (dB)
Line Attenuation 0.0 (dB) 19.4 (dB)

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 6.5 (dBm) 12.5 (dBm)
Fast Path FEC Correction 249548 2009
Interleaved Path FEC Correction -- --
Fast Path CRC Error 0 1059
Interleaved Path CRC Error -- --
Loss Of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 0 230
Interleaved Path HEC Error -- --
Error Seconds 15836 340
STATISTICS
Received Data 19305596 (Kbits)
Transmitted Data 1319325 (Kbits)

------------



BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER
Telephone Number 01302nnnnnn on Exchange DONCASTER is served by Cabinet 36
Featured Products

Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Downstream Handback Threshold(Mbps)

WBC FTTC Availability Date

WBC SOGEA Availability Date

WBC FTTC 18x2 Provide Availability

WBC FTTC 18x2 Sim Availability

Left in Jumper

High Low High Low
VDSL Range A (Clean) 64.6 47.9 18 11.9 40.6 Available -- -- -- --
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 49.6 28 15 6.8 22.4 Available -- -- -- --
Featured Products

Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Downstream Range(Mbps)

WBC FTTP Availability Date





FTTP on Demand 330 30 -- Available -- -- -- --
ADSL Products

Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Downstream Range(Mbps)

Availability Date




Left in Jumper

WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 11.5 -- 6.5 to 19 Available -- -- -- --
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 11.5 Up to 1 6.5 to 19 Available -- -- -- --
ADSL Max Up to 5 -- 4 to 7.5 Available -- -- -- --
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available -- -- -- --
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available -- -- -- --
Other Offerings




Availability Date





VDSL Multicast -- -- -- Available -- -- -- --
ADSL Multicast -- -- -- Available -- -- -- --
Premise environment

Status

Bridge Tap U
VRI --
NTEFaceplate --
Last Test Date 18-01-1970

Additional from SamKnows:
Exchange: Doncaster (1106m away)

BT FTTC broadband availability
You are connected to the Doncaster telephone exchange.

FTTC is available in your area

Downstream Min: 47.9 Mbps
Downstream Max: 64.6 Mbps
Upstream Min: 11.9 Mbps
Upstream Max: 18 Mbps

All of which goes back to my original query as yo why I am not getting the upload speed the checkers say I should ?

The NM of 6 dB indicates that is no spare margin to increase your upstream speed above its current 9.9 Meg altho' this is actually below BT's min. estimate of 11.9 Meg.

Be aware that all estimates by BT & ISPs are of connection/sync speeds as reported by router & are not speedtests' throughput speeds.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 07-Sep-17 12:47:32)

Thanks for that, so nothing can be done to improve the upload speed if the noise margin is correct.

I read a thread somewhere, not on TBB, where a change of router sorted it out as there was a suspicion it had been faulty ? Just looking at any other possibilities before accepting my fate

I wonder how they can give an estimate if there has never been a service connected in the past. The last time we had a BT line was over 20 years ago. We went to Ionica WLL in the 90's then Virgin when we lost that.

It's just a slim hope that another router might be better, but everything else reported by your router looks OK.

Dunno how EE dream up their estimates. They are diff from BT's, yet the BT Checker is their only source for them. Maybe some combi of Impacted & Clean. Trouble is your upstream is above EE's min. of 7.7 Meg. So you can't argue with EE.

BT's estimates are based on their database of line lengths & quality up to your property + any past BB history whilst on the BT system.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 07-Sep-17 13:30:45)

Thank you for clarifying on the socket front ... that should be OK then.

I must admit, on the strength of the stats, the upstream does look somewhat low. I guess trying a different make of modem/router is worth a punt .... on a sale or return basis.

As X-ray says, it's within EE's estimates, so they are very unlikely to do anything about it.

Should or might?

The checkers are not some magical beast, they have mistakes, assumptions and estimates in them...if your upload was 2.2 Mbps versus an estimate of 18 Mbps then it would be worth pursing

I note that you have included the distance from the Exchange - this is for BB purposes only relevant to ADSL - supplied directly over the phone line from the exchange via the PCP yo your house.

In comparison, VDSL is generally supplied from the newer FTTC via the PCP to your house - a much shorter distance.

The (newer) FTTC is usually within 50 Metres of the (much older) PCP, frequently almost alongside.

Judging by your Down Line Attenuation of 19.4 db, your FTTC via PCP to house distance is significantly greater than mine, 300 Metres, 13.4 db. Brightbox 2 measurements.

Basically I also am on EE; but chose for financial reasons to upgrade to the EE 40/10 VDSL package from EE ADSL, rather than the 80/20.

> I note that you have included the distance from the Exchange
Actually, that's misleading from SamKnows, Doncaster exchange may be only 1106m away from my home but service is via cabinet 36, which is 1400m away in the opposite direction as the crow flies. Allowing for ducting following older roads from when it was first laid I'd guess we are 1600m-ish from the cabinet, if that makes any difference.

I have been to where the cabinet is a few times, Openreach had to move it a few years ago when a subway under the road was closed to allow for widening..
It was here (Oct 2008): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5046063,-1.1564688...
and was moved to here (Jul 2015): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5046048,-1.1564304...
There was another cab that has since vanished (Jun 2011): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5045297,-1.1562571...
- I think that was part of the former Digital Region system though (http://www.digitalregion.co.uk/)
The dates are Google maps dates, not when the work was carried out.

The reason we went for the higher package is that there are three adults living here, there are 3 PC's, 3 laptops, 3 mobile phones, 3 tablets, the EE TV box, a VOIP ATA, two smart TV's and a EE signal booster connected, although not all in use at the same time.

> a slim hope that another router might be better
Not in a rush to try that. As you've said, service is within the estimate so EE will not do anything. I've seen BrightBox2's on eBay for about 12 quid. Or, should I try a totally different one - I think I would have issues setting it up as the BrightBox2 came pre-configured. Or is that just blinding the customer with science...?

We have not had a BT line here for over 20 years. There could not be any history to refer to so perhaps the estimates are based on properties around us connected to the same cabinet.

>...if your upload was 2.2 Mbps versus an estimate of 18 Mbps then it would be worth pursing

But then it would be out of estimate and EE would do something about it.

I asked the question, I've had answers. Seems there isn't a lot I can do apart from thank everyone who chipped in with info.

Just changed my sig line, forgot it was still showing Virgin...

We have not had a BT line here for over 20 years. There could not be any history to refer to so perhaps the estimates are based on properties around us connected to the same cabinet.

They are based on users and guesstimates of specific DP's not cabs.

The router suggestion was for a different make altogether.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

They are based on users and guesstimates of specific DP's not cabs.

Got that now.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The router suggestion was for a different make altogether.

Which is where I would come unstuck, been with Virgin 20+ years so no idea what is what when it comes to routers.

Which is where I would come unstuck, been with Virgin 20+ years so no idea what is what when it comes to routers.

Which is where forums like this come in handy

Post a new thread in the fibre section on here asking for recommendations , and stating what your basic requirements are ......

If you are correct with that 1600 Metre distance to the PCB , then it makes a colossal difference to the "speed" of the VDSL BB service you receive.

Take a look at the graph on this site-

http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-b...

There is general agreement that speed drops of rapidly at about 300 to 400 Metres, as illustrated, due to the simple physics of phone lines generally.

I do suspect however from the modem results, that the phone line length is less than 1600 M - try measuring more accurately.

Google Earth is a good way to go about doing this.

I recently encountered a case where the OP's first estimate was "about 250 M"; but subsequently was proven to be between 650 M and 900 M, depending on exactly where his house was in the length of the street.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Post a new thread in the fibre section on here asking for recommendations

Maybe later, I'm on a pension so in no rush to spend money

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Google Earth ...

Is what I used, or rather Google Maps which is where the streetview links came from. I said there we are about 1400m as the crow flies. I've just measured that on Google maps - 1350m as the crow flies, so I was pretty close.

If I accept Google's estimate of how far it is to travel by car I would assume it takes the quickest route, and that should be similar to where the BT ducting would be. In my case it's a straight line of 1500m then 190m at a right angle.

I have cabinet 36 from many sources so no reason to suspect we're actually connected to one closer, although the figures seem to suggest we may be. I've no way of knowing if there is a dp closer that is being used, just the cabinet number.

So although you are confident of the PCP Cabinet Number per se, you apparently have not had confirmation of the location of the specific physical cabinet.

I have located the posted photo cabinet on Street View; and have manipulated the view, also a cleaned up screen-shot, to see if there is a number on it.

The right-hand end towards the bus shelter appears to be bare.

There may be a number on the other end - but it is not clear enough to be legible.

-----------

Given also that the general area is built-up, I think you need to positively locate PCP 36, to be certain of the distances.

Putting cabinet 36 where you suggest it is makes no sense at all, and is in the footprint of a different exchange.

I was told Cabinet 36 was at Oswin Avenue, which is the location I found on Google maps. This info came from the Digital Region project when I was looking to go with them a few years ago, before that project folded.

Wen I enquired why it was so far away I was told that when they first put telephones in the houses I live in there were very few others between us and the location of the cabinet,

If anyone wants to tell me where cabinet 36 is, other than where I've been pointed, I'd appreciate that.

A bit more digging and I found this
https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm?xid=7...

"BT line"
I suspect you have been on a BT line throughout the past 20 years, to move readily from Ionica through Virgin to EE.

You may have paid those other companies as Phone Service suppliers; but generally they use the existing Telephone/Telecomm infrastructure, passing on the "Line Rental" component of their charges to BT.

If that is correct, your Modem/Router connection over all those years and ISP changes have probably been from your internal phone wiring; and that has not changed when you recently moved to EE, although the actual Modem/Router has.

There are exceptions, so hopefully someone with knowledge of your area can provide a definitive answer.

Location
Given your supplied distances and the CodeLook map, you do appear to be in the northern-most group of the high-lighted area, with the final connections to the houses in your suspected street being from timber Phone Poles located on the footpaths.

The other areas on the CodeLook map appear to have similar arrangements; but from the back-lanes rather than the streets.

Looking at the junctions of most of the mapped streets, with Littlemoor Lane, there are generally one or more boxes of a telecomms nature at most of those junctions.

Some are green and others are grey.

---------------

As Andrew has said, you really need to have Cabinet 36 correctly identified to you; and hopefully some proof that your EE VDSL is from the associated FTTC, acknowledging that it could all be different.

I have found that BT-OR engineers are usually willing to help in such matters, if you happen to spot any in your vicinity.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

"BT line"
I suspect you have been on a BT line throughout the past 20 years, to move readily from Ionica through Virgin to EE.

You may have paid those other companies as Phone Service suppliers; but generally they use the existing Telephone/Telecomm infrastructure, passing on the "Line Rental" component of their charges to BT.

If that is correct, your Modem/Router connection over all those years and ISP changes have probably been from your internal phone wiring; and that has not changed when you recently moved to EE, although the actual Modem/Router has.

Afraid not. We ceased the BT service in the mid 90's to go to the Ionica system, which was provided by a dish on the roof. When they went under we went to Bradford Cable with TV and phone provided on their own wires to the front of the house. The old BT socket was at the back of the house and was disconnected.

Broadband from Virgin was by their coax cable, not a phone line. I have just 'capped' their splitter box as I was sent a pair of caps to enable me to do so, removing the old indoor bits of cable in the process.

Openreach came to reconnect the BT line so we could have EE. Part of the old circuit was 'dead' so they had to come back and string up a new wire between the telegraph poles before our new line was enabled.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Location
Given your supplied distances and the CodeLook map, you do appear to be in the northern-most group of the high-lighted area, with the final connections to the houses in your suspected street being from timber Phone Poles located on the footpaths.

The other areas on the CodeLook map appear to have similar arrangements; but from the back-lanes rather than the streets.

Looking at the junctions of most of the mapped streets, with Littlemoor Lane, there are generally one or more boxes of a telecomms nature at most of those junctions.

Some are green and others are grey.

The majority of these are Virgin media cabinets. I know that as I've been with the engineers many times to look at where our connection was made in the cab when we originally had issues with poor signal, many years ago now.

I had already had a good look through the area using Google streetview and only identified one of the cabs as a BT one, that was cabinet 59.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

As Andrew has said, you really need to have Cabinet 36 correctly identified to you; and hopefully some proof that your EE VDSL is from the associated FTTC, acknowledging that it could all be different.

I have found that BT-OR engineers are usually willing to help in such matters, if you happen to spot any in your vicinity.

I will keep an eye out for Openreach engineers

Ah - found it...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5130161,-1.1409577...

It's on the other side of a busy main road, not at all where I was told it was

Apologies for that, I was told by the Digital Region people that they would struggle to provide service to us because of that. Thinking about it, maybe that was because that was the nearest place that THEY had a cabinet. I don't know.

A rather sad looking box just a little bit further up the road too:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5128171,-1.1412346...

Both seems to have lots of trenches and their little manhole pits around.

That means we are 425m from the cabinet, as the crow flies.

Post deleted by MrSaffron

So, 6 months later and the broadband went off several times between 0100 and 0130. When I got service back I did a speedtest and was rather amazed to see it had jumped up quite a lot.

The EE box says
Downstream Rate 69.92 Mbps
Upstream Rate 12.74 Mbps

Here I got a result:
which is given as an average download speed of 65.76 Mbps and 11.73 Mbps upload.

A great improvement on what we originally got in September. No idea what EE have done, maybe we have dropped lucky on a good IP address - although I still don't see how this makes any significant difference.

Just thought it worth mentioning as we are now getting closer to the upload speed I was given and have surpassed the download speed by some margin

IP address will not make any difference to connection speed.

So if your connection speeds are what have increased, then you are looking at changes like lower target noise margin, vectoring or G.INP providing benefits and DLM system has switched them on.

So it is something EE have done, I have not changed anything here and wondered why the (bright) box went off as it did.

I will keep an eye on it. See what happens the next time they change the IP address or whatever it is they do every few days.

In case anyone can tell what has changed, here's the latest statistics:

STATUS
Configured Current
Line Status -- UP
Link Type -- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G.993.2 (VDSL2)
DATA RATE INFORMATION
Upstream 12736 (Kbps)
Downstream 69924 (Kbps)
DEFECT/FAILURE INDICATION
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 3.9 (dB) 4.8 (dB)
Line Attenuation 0.0 (dB) 19.1 (dB)

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 6.6 (dBm) 12.6 (dBm)
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 351
Interleaved Path FEC Correction -- --
Fast Path CRC Error 0 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error -- --
Loss Of Signal Defect 2 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 0 8787
Interleaved Path HEC Error -- --
Error Seconds 16022 4204

I can see this is different
Noise Margin 3.9 (dB) 4.8 (dB) (NOW)
Noise Margin 6.0 (dB) 6.2 (dB) (Sept)

How strange... The router just reset again, red light flashing and status page showing no connection. It came back, different IP address, and this:


And the noise margin(s) have changed again...

STATUS
Configured Current
Line Status -- UP
Link Type -- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G.993.2 (VDSL2)
DATA RATE INFORMATION
Upstream 10264 (Kbps)
Downstream 64573 (Kbps)
DEFECT/FAILURE INDICATION
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.2 (dB) 6.3 (dB)
Line Attenuation 0.0 (dB) 19.2 (dB)

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 6.6 (dBm) 12.6 (dBm)
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 372
Interleaved Path FEC Correction -- --
Fast Path CRC Error 0 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error -- --
Loss Of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 0 30
Interleaved Path HEC Error -- --
Error Seconds 16126 4243

Not EE but the Openreach Dynamic Line Management DLM that is permanently running and will do things like try a lower target noise margin to see if a line will go faster, and if the errors go up it may take the extra speed away again.

Which looking at the two sets of stats is what has happened, i.e. the lower margin gave you 5 Mbps extra download and that has been taken away now.

It has reset a few more times but seems to have stopped now. Ah well, for a fleeting moment...

I'm coming back to make a note on this issue, I've already tagged @XRaySpeX on the EE community forum with the same info about the (eventual) fix to the issues I've had.

A couple of weeks ago Openreach did a new install near me and my download speed dropped by 15Mbps. I was getting 59/8 on average before. It went down to 44/6

I called EE and reported this, the checks came back to say I was within the minimum range but they agreed that a drop of 25% was not good so booked an Openreach visit.

He came on Thursday this week and did some checks, but couldn't figure out what was wrong. He changed pairs as there was some contention with the recent install, seems I was on the next pair to that. A bit of improvement was seen, but not back to where I was.

So he left as his day was up and came back Friday morning. Lots more testing, he checked each stage of the run from the exchange to my home, at the cab, at the pole, at a chamber DP on the way to the pole. All was fine up to the chamber. He could see 71Mbps there. So it came down to a 40 meter run between the chamber and the pole.

That's where he scratched his head a lot until he discovered that when the line was provisioned, only 2 years ago, they had an issue and had connected my line to an old underground cable that ran from 'my' pole to a more distant pole, with an overhead wire coming back in this direction. Yes, they had connected me to that loop, totally unnecessary.

Today the engineer disconnected the loop and put me on the nearest pole, as it should have been in the first place. A really good result, for him and me, as I now get 69/17 !!!

That's 10Mbps more download speed and double the upload speed. That is more like I should have got 2 years back.

Here's today's info from the hub

Data rate:17.08 Mbps / 68.91 Mbps
Maximum data rate:16.97 Mbps / 69.10 Mbps
Noise margin (up/down):6.0 / 6.0
Line attenuation (up/down):25.0 / 17.4

The Think Broadband speed test comes in at 64.2/15.6