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Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Fri 27-Nov-09 19:57:28
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TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


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Hi guys

I have ried the tech forum but this is probably a better place to start!

Iexperience a 1 or 2 second delay on MW2 on the PS3. My friends localy on the same ISP dont experience it.
My line tests at 2.7 down and 0.5 up. All line tests say I have an A grade line and a QOS score of 4.0 - 4.38 with a latency of 30-37ms.

The game doesnt lag visibly but shots do not register and killcams show ridiculous delays with me blindly waltzing past the enemy. When i do see him and fill him full of lead, I still die and the killcam says i didnt fire a shot!! Doh!

After a lot of speedtests, I came across myspeed.visualware.com and there in depth socket to socket tests. Seem to show a 1.5-1.75 second TCP pause, with the bandwidth dropping to zero. I am positive this is the cause.

But why does everything else seem so steady.

Any ideas greatfully received!
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Fri 27-Nov-09 20:03:04
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Sorry. The thats the TCP upload pause, just to clarify.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Fri 27-Nov-09 21:15:33
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Game traffic is usually UDP though... so I don't see how it would have that kind of effect.


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Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:15:31
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Gzero:
Game traffic is usually UDP though... so I don't see how it would have that kind of effect.


I am just an amateur! What is the difference?
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:23:00
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
What connection do you have? If ADSL, what router?

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:31:38
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Hi Matt

It is ADSL. I had a netgear router, but sky changed it to a SAGEM when I had previous speed issues. Those issues turned out to be due to BT's faceplate which an engineer changed.

It is a SAGEM F@ST 2504 SKY V3.1

Thanks

Neil
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:33:52
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Neil,

Never used that router so can't ask specifics about it. Have you tried another router (if possible)?

Also, are you using wireless and have you tried wired?

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:47:24
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
I could try the old router again. Thing is I have just moved from sky to BT unlimited. That goes live on Tuesday. Thought contention and throttling issues would be less than sky LLU.

Perhaps that is wishful thinking if these forums are anything to go by!

Just dont understand the unstable upload if the download is ok?
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:48:55
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
It could be the router... Try the old one.

But you've not said if it you are connected wireless when this happens, or if you have tried via wired.

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 17:54:37
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Sorry Matt

Hard wired with new cat6 cable. All extensions removed and i plate fitted to master socket.

Thinking about it, things were bad on COD4 etc but never this bad, and the router changed in between.

Can this sort of problem be caused simply by the router?

If so why couldnt sky diagnose it...or is that a stupid question? smile
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 18:01:10
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Yes, things like this can be caused by the router. If you still have the other, give it a try smile

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 18:05:47
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your help Matt.

Just noticed your footer. I always test my line on speedtest and pingtest against your servers in Milton Keynes and Maidenhead and get a good result, generally 30-40 ms. I live in Milton Keynes.

Thasts why the delays seemed so strange.

Neil
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 18:07:20
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
smile Do let me know the outcome with the other router.

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 19:51:07
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by xilonet:
smile Do let me know the outcome with the other router.

Matt

Hi Matt

Old router generated a slightly higher download speed but a ridiculously unstable upload connection and lower speed approx 0.3 as opposed to 0.5Meg.

Had to change back again.

Neil
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 28-Nov-09 20:12:13
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Did you have the delay though?

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 23:17:24
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by xilonet:
Did you have the delay though?

Matt

Yes. It even appeared longer and semi repeated over the test time duration
(approx 8 secs)

Driving me absolutely nuts!

Neil
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sat 28-Nov-09 23:22:34
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Matt

I can send you two graphs if it is possible to post pics on here?

Upload speed and upload TCP max pause graphs?

Neil
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 11:32:03
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Current router stats

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3680 kbps 605 kbps
Line Attenuation 53.5 db 26.7 db
Noise Margin 8.3 db 16.0 db

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 29-Nov-09 15:11:22
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Actually, it translates into: there's nothing we can do about your distance to the exchange in your case.
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 17:17:40
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
I dont care what the distance is from the exchange and I understand that I will not achieve anywhere near 8 meg let alone 20 meg!

What I do expect however is that the max speed that is available should be consistent. Full stop.

I can live with a 256kbps upload or whatever. But thats where it should stay.

If it can,t stabilise at any particular given speed, then you aren't getting what you are paying for at all.

If they can't achieve that, then technically how can you claim broadband is actually available?

Remember, the download is always pretty stable, so why isn't the upload?

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 29-Nov-09 19:09:30
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
All consumer broadband is provided on a contended basis. Even though you sync at those speeds, does not mean you'll get them at all times.

Granted, it generally does not affect most people but it is possible. However, the delay you are seeing/getting is a new one on me so could be related to the ISP, but I just don't know.

If you are off to BT in a few days, I would wait and see if that fixes the problem. If so, you know it might have been an issue with the then old ISP.

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 19:53:37
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Hi Matt

I understand speed contention issues affect everyone, but its sort of the reverse problem with my ISP.

They dont want to address the delay because they can see 3 odd meg and say that thats not slow. But its not speed that effects me. I would be happy with 1 meg and 60kbps upload for gaming. But it needs to be relatively consistent!

Thanks for all your ideas Matt. Much appreciated. I will let you know in a couple of weeks time if I fair any better with BT!! smile

Neil

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 29-Nov-09 20:09:14
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
I just don't know what else it could be. I seem to recall that Sky's default interleaving is set to the maximum for the best stability - so that could be it, but I don't see how.

If you ping bbc.co.uk, what response times do you get back?

Matt
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 20:37:33
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Nelly>ping www.bbc.co.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.251.195] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.58.251.195: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=121
Reply from 212.58.251.195: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=121
Reply from 212.58.251.195: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=121
Reply from 212.58.251.195: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=121

Ping statistics for 212.58.251.195:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 28ms, Maximum = 29ms, Average = 28ms

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 20:45:26
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Nelly>ping www.multiplay.co.uk

Pinging core1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.22] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=123
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=123
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=123
Reply from 85.236.96.22: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=123

Ping statistics for 85.236.96.22:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 28ms, Maximum = 29ms, Average = 28ms

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 29-Nov-09 21:05:32
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: mrnelster] [link to this post]
 
I doubt it's that then.

Right, stumped. I'll have to let this problem win, unfortunately. frown
Standard User mrnelster
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-09 21:21:39
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Re: TCP pause causing 2 second lag on PS3?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately I cannot copy the graphs to this post, but this is the response I have had from VisualWare, who sell their diagnostic software to companies who need to verify their connection problems to prove their point to ISP's.
The guy there is trying to establish if he can find the problem before I purchase the software. I have sent him one test result (TCP stack test) and this is what he thinks so far: (sorry for the long post!)

Hi Neil

This looks like it is a fairly good test, the main issue is the red spikes that align to blue spikes are packet loss events, either lost altogether or what is called a TCP black hole. The blue spike is the delay caused by the event. They don�t look like much (and this was a good test I think) they do have an impact. 30ms on a 3Mbs connection is losing a throughput of nearly 100Kb. However that said this looks like a relatively clean test. You indicated you were getting TCP delay much higher than this. Is that correct

Don�t get confused with QoS, it is a measure of consistency. It is very important as it relates to the flowing of data evenly but it is not a speed related measure. Yours is high because the breakdown is symmetrical.


[0,1600) = 541,173 bytes (2,705,865 bps)
[1600,3200) = 539,956 bytes (2,699,780 bps)
[3200,4800) = 537,719 bytes (2,688,595 bps)
[4800,6400) = 537,328 bytes (2,686,640 bps)
[6400,8001) = 538,983 bytes (2,693,231 bps)

The modal pause analysis shows that your data is flowing at about 3Mbps (excluding the delays) is that correct


Pause frequencies
4ms | 917 | #################
5ms | 583 | ###########
3ms | 159 | ###
6ms | 76 | #
33ms | 1 |
1ms | 8 |
8ms | 5 |
2ms | 13 |
12ms | 1 |
10ms | 2 |
0ms | 5 |
15ms | 2 |
7ms | 5 |
31ms | 1 |
11ms | 2 |
32ms | 1 |
28ms | 2 |
17ms | 1 |
9ms | 3 |
20ms | 1 |
18ms | 1 |
24ms | 1 |
26ms | 1 |

Preliminary guess at modal pause = 4 ms
Considering 870 pauses of 4 ms
Considering 555 pauses of 5 ms
Considering 145 pauses of 3 ms
Modal pause = 6690 / 1570 = 4.2
Bandwidth = 342630 --> 340000


Ideally I need to see a bad test, my guess is that you suffer from what is called a congestion pattern. Just like the M25 at certain times oversubscribed networks slow down because of too much traffic. If I can get a test log of a bad result that will help.


UPLOAD is showing a fairly consistent service however there is one very HUGE interrupt loss event or 1000ms. That will impact almost any application. It is a whole second without data. Also if you review the data excluding the spike to get a better scale you can see other delays. When you get delays far greater then the trip latency (which is 37ms) then it will almost certainly trigger duplicates. Unfortunately duplicates consume bandwidth for not value to the application as the packets are duplicates and are just thrown away.

A capacity test will not help to solve this problem, an application test is far more useful as it tracks the data from an application standpoint. However if you want me to investigate why this is not working just let me know. The feature is not available in PCLite however.

If you want to do a 30 hour automated congestion test let me know and I will set up the download for you. Otherwise in the meantime I will wait to see a bad result report. Can you reconfirm your contracted service speeds for me. I want to be sure the pattern is valid for the service. What it is showing is 3Mbps currently as a flow rate.

Best wishes

Julian

In broadband terms "up to" is a pseudonym for "we don't care".
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