Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too

Hi Folks,

Looking for a little advice.

I switched over from plusnet to orange because orange were the only provider on my exchange (NEAT) that said they had capacity on their LLU service and I got so sick of the IP Profile trampoline!

Apart from the nightmare actualy getting signed up and migrated and having no internet for 48 hours I am now pretty sure they have put me on a BT Wholesale product.

In my account setting it seems I am on an up to 8mbit service which was the first alarm bell.

The second alarm bell is that I can still use the BT speedtester site and I seem to have an IP profile of 1000 Syncing at around 2800

So I rang orange to challenge them on this (I was VERY clear I would only migrate if they put me on LLU) after getting very little sence out of the call center and being asked to factory reset my router ......WHAT? (I refused) I demanded to be put through to the cancelations dept.

They said that I have to wait 10 days for the training period before they could troubleshoot speed issues. I asked why I even had a BT ip profile and was told that I am deffinatley on the orange network (ovoiding saying LLU) but my speeds would be low for 10 days while I migrate to a WBC line.

Now this all seems to conflict and the call center guys while troubleshooting the original no connection for 48 hours asked me to enter the BT test user details in to the router which started my initial suspicion.

Is there anyway that I can verify without any doubt I am on oranges LLU service and not a BTW line and is it fair to have to wait a certain period to migrate on to LLU?

Perhaps I missed somthing but I remember a few years back being on sky LLU and the speed i synced at was the speed I got even during the training period, should this not be the same with Orange?

Any tips or advice welcome.

Thanks.

Post your router stats so we can confirm you are not on LLU (which the running of the BT speedtester confirms anyway).

As a consequence of Orange getting in bed with BT, it appears that, since about New Year, they put all new joiners on BT IPStream, with the intention of moving those capable of > 8 Meg to WBC "eventually" on 21CN exchanges.

You're not the 1st, see : http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/f/39826...

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 01-Apr-11 23:20:52)

Connection Speed 2627 kbps 736 kbps
Line Attenuation 64.0 db 33.0 db
Noise Margin 5.5 db 4.7 db

Reading that thread now.

Thanks for the reply

From your Up Sync you are already on WBC (it would be 448 on IPStream).

However, at your 64 dB attn. it's never going to make any difference to you and you'll always be fastest on ADSL1. You're already getting as good as you're going to get for Down Sync.

Does your router status have anything on ADSL/Line Mode/Modulation?

Thanks XRaySpeX,

My attn when I was on plusnet (same router) was 59 dB which is odd I would not expect that to change but I guess it is what it is.

So am I right in thinking that what I sync at I should actualy get i.e. sync at 2600 I should get roughly 2.6 mbit download speed or will I be limited by an IP profile?

bt speed tester site:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 858 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 400-1000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :2624 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 736 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 1000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 8.45:25.07:66.57 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

The results of this test will vary depending on the way your ISP has decided to use these traffic classes.

Perhaps I have somthing not quite right in my thinking but I had assumed with an LLU service I would get what I synced at, even during the training period?

Why do I have an IP profile am I not understanding the difference between WBC and LLU, is there a difference?

so confused.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Apr-11 00:05:49)

OK, a few points to cover!

Firstly, Flavours of ADSL (phone line) BB

• LLU is where ISPs put their own kit in BT exchanges and it doesn't matter what kit BT has there. They usually use ADSL2+ mode which is capable of up to 24 Meg, but it is often better to downgrade to ADSL1 or ADSL2 on very long lines (like yours).
• IP Stream is where ISPs use BT kit (initially) in BT exchanges. This always uses ADSL1 (ADSL Max) mode which is only capable of up to 8 Meg.
• WBC is where ISPs use BT kit (initially) in BT 21CN exchanges. This usually uses ADSL2+ mode just like LLU.

Orange used to use either LLU or IPStream in exchanges where they had no presence; now they are supposed to moving over gradually to either IPStream in 20CN exchanges or WBC in 21CN ones. However, existing customers, like myself are still on LLU (for the time being)

With Plusnet you were probably on IPStream running ADSL1. It is quite usual for your attn. to increase (by about) 3 dB when you move to ADSL2+. That's why I asked you for your Line Mode status.

IP Profile

Both IPStream and WBC use BT's dreaded laggy IP Profile and the only way to see it is via the BT Speedtester. LLU doesn't and can't! . Unlike LLU, the IP Profile takes days to recover after it senses frequent disconnections. It is always less than the Sync and could be much less. It is supposed to account for all the overheads.

Your actual throughput will usually be about 83% of Sync on a good line with low contention, but will be limited by the IP Profile. So, you will only get good throughput when the IP Profile recovers towards the Sync.

You are not on LLU but on WBC.

Thanks for the explination.

I will be calling orange to cancle today.

I was assured LLU at the point of sale and I am on WBC.

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

Thanks for the explination.

I will be calling orange to cancle today.

I was assured LLU at the point of sale and I am on WBC.

Hi backtogeek, with you being able to use the BT speed checker and your Down Speed 736 kbps. It looks you are on the new BT WBC 21CN 24Mbit/s service, that all Orange LLU broadband customers will be moved over to this year where WBC 21CN is installed.

I see at your exchange NEATH TE it has only just been installed 31/03/2011
With your Line Attenuation 64.0 db or 59db you will not get a great speed, you could see what your line is capable of after the 10 days training period.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SWNM

WBC 21CN Data Sheet https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/Communit...

BT WBC 21CN https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/B...

indeed, I sync between 2600 - 2800 I have a very good quality line for the length (Cost me a few favours) and if I sync at 2600 I want 2600, with WBC I am still subject to an IP profile so will be reduced to 2000.

So if thats the case I would rather cancle and go back to plusnet at least they have customer service worth talking too.

What I didn't mention before is that actual throughput is less than Sync (about 83%) because the transmission carries overheads, just like a letter needs an envelope so the PO can deliver it to you but you throw away the envelope (17% of weight) when you receive it to read the actual letter (83% of weight).

Even when you Sync @ 2600 you will never get more than about 2160 with any ISP. So, if you allow the IP Profile to finish training, you will get almost the tops.

You probably won't be much different with another ISP, even LLU, with your v. high attn.

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

indeed, I sync between 2600 - 2800 I have a very good quality line for the length (Cost me a few favours) and if I sync at 2600 I want 2600, with WBC I am still subject to an IP profile so will be reduced to 2000.

So if thats the case I would rather cancle and go back to plusnet at least they have customer service worth talking too.

Hi backtogeek, I switch my router off overnight every night and when I go out in the daytime, hope that BT profiling don�t knock my connection speeds about.

with that long line and Attenuation 64.0 db or 59db, get a BT Business Hub 2700HGV wireless router. Best router for a long line, it will give your downstream sync speed another 500kbps. Get one on eBay.

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=BT+Business+Hub+2...

My stats this morning with Orange LLU, looking good.

BT Business Hub 2700HGV router.
View Broadband Link Details
DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 12063 kbps
Upstream Rate: 1149 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 10.1 dB (Downstream), 5.8 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 30.0 dB (Downstream), 14.7 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 18.5 dBm (Downstream), 12.0 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x9662}

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1232570195.png

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1232568720.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/38070290.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/38070243.png

In reply to a post by E7er:

I switch my router off overnight every night and when I go out in the daytime, hope that BT profiling don�t knock my connection speeds about.

Eh? I thought you were on LLU and have no BT IP Profile. Or have they switched you to WBC already?

Thanks XRaySPeX,

I appreciate that however due to my long line it does resync a few times a day which has often causes the IP profile to drop to 1500 for 5 days at a time.

It is this that I was hoping to avoid with an LLU service.

Anyway I range orange to cancle, explained why and they basicaly called me a liar and said I would get charged for my MAC code.

I cancled anyway and I have stopped the DIrect Debit, I have also pointed out that they have got my name completly wrong on the account so I doubt any sort of contact is binding against a none legal or existing entity.

Follwed this up with a recorded phone call to Orange sales asking if they have capacity on thier LLU services on my exchange saying I want to get a new line but ONLY if they have LLU capacity, of cause the answer was yes (miss sold) where the answer when speaking to customer services was NO even if I cancle they cant help.

Thats been burned to disk and sent with a written complaint to Orange CC ofcom.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by E7er:

I switch my router off overnight every night and when I go out in the daytime, hope that BT profiling don�t knock my connection speeds about.

Eh? I thought you were on LLU and have no BT IP Profile. Or have they switched you to WBC already?

Hi XRaySpeX, I am still on Orange LLU, my exchange will not have BT WBC 21CN until end of June 2011 and I think they will put me on it then.

OK, I can see why you might be better off on LLU.

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

said I would get charged for my MAC code.

A MAC should be issued FOC by OFCOM rules, but it might be preferable to buying out rest of contract, if you don't succeed that you were mis-sold. .

FYI: My exchange was 21CN'ed in 2009, but Orange have not yet put me on it

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

Thanks XRaySPeX,

I appreciate that however due to my long line it does resync a few times a day which has often causes the IP profile to drop to 1500 for 5 days at a time.

It is this that I was hoping to avoid with an LLU service.

Anyway I range orange to cancle, explained why and they basicaly called me a liar and said I would get charged for my MAC code.

I cancled anyway and I have stopped the DIrect Debit, I have also pointed out that they have got my name completly wrong on the account so I doubt any sort of contact is binding against a none legal or existing entity.

Follwed this up with a recorded phone call to Orange sales asking if they have capacity on thier LLU services on my exchange saying I want to get a new line but ONLY if they have LLU capacity, of cause the answer was yes (miss sold) where the answer when speaking to customer services was NO even if I cancle they cant help.

Thats been burned to disk and sent with a written complaint to Orange CC ofcom.

At your exchange, Not considering TalkTalk your only option then for LLU is Sky.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

FYI: My exchange was 21CN'ed in 2009, but Orange have not yet put me on it

I read somewhere the Orange to BT broadband network changeover would take place this summer 2011.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Apr-11 12:19:59)

I have just start the ball rolling with o2.

Orange have annoyed me so much this is the first time I have ever sent a written complaint in my life.

I dont plan on paying Orange a penny (excluding any call charges which ironicly will all be from calling Orange) I will be happy to go to court on this one.

Should be interesting.

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

I have just start the ball rolling with o2.

Orange have annoyed me so much this is the first time I have ever sent a written complaint in my life.

I dont plan on paying Orange a penny (excluding any call charges which ironicly will all be from calling Orange) I will be happy to go to court on this one.

Should be interesting.

Hi backtogeek, to save you all this trouble you should have come here first, we would have told you Orange LLU is closing down and all their LLU customers are being moved to BT WBC 21CN network.

Post deleted by XRaySpeX

"Stable ... Horse" comes to mind

Your NEATH exchange does not have O2 LLU only O2 Access IPstream, which is murder in the evenings, do not touch it with a barge pole.

Post deleted by XRaySpeX

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 02-Apr-11 15:47:56)

Why did you not return to SKY LLU?
As you've used it before you know how your line would run.

Exchange name: Ashington
Exchange code: NEAT

LLU operator presence
What is this?AOL: Enabled
O2 / Be: Enabled C&W / Bulldog: Not available
Edge Telecom: Not available
Entanet: Not available
Lumison: Not available
NewNet: Not available
Node4: Not available
Orange: Enabled as of 17/12/2006
Pipex: Not available
Sky / Easynet: Enabled as of 20/11/2006
Smallworld: Not available
TalkTalk (CPW): Enabled
Tiscali: Enabled as of 09/08/2008
Tiscali TV: Enabled as of 09/08/2008
WB Internet: Not available
Zen Internet: Not available

Sky dont have any capacity.

Are you guys sure your not looking at the ashington kent exchange?

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

Are you guys sure your not looking at the ashington kent exchange?

No, but we were mistakenly looking at the NEATH exchange

Sorry, please ignore all I said about O2 IPstream and the C&W network.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 02-Apr-11 15:45:55)

In reply to a post by backtogeek:

I have just start the ball rolling with o2.

First, O2 may not accept you on LLU with that length line, so make sure they don't put you on O2 Access anyway, which as has been said is rubbish - and not just in the evenings.

Second, are you aware of the O2 FUP and Traffic Management for whichever package you are looking at?

o2 did a line overide and accepted me, got my mac code from orange and just waiting for them to listen back to the call to confirm that the package was miss sold (7 days later)

As soon as they listen to it and hear the sales person confirm back to me about 10 times I am going on the LLU network I can migrate cost free.

Spoke to Orange again today as my sync speed has halved (SNR has not changed) after 20 frustrating minutes of refusing to factory reset my router and speaking to a manager who clearly does not even know the very basics of broadband I have just given up, I will just wait on this stupid ip profile of 750 for the next few days until they confirm I can migrate cost free.

No responce at all from the written letter of complaint with the recorded calls from my end burned to a CD.