Neighbours Get 1.5M but I get <128 kbps

BT have just cancelled by BB account as they said that my line length is too long to support BB.

I have been with BT since moving into my house on 4th July and my BB has been up/down over last month and I never get above download 128kbps (upload 300kps).

I have spoken to my neighbours on both sides of my house and they get 1-1.5Mbps consistently. One of them is using Tiscali. I will ask the other neighbour which ISP he uses later.

The bottom line is that my neighbours also have long line lengths but still get a service (I will find out the distance later) of >10 times more download speed than me. BT say that my line length is potentially a lot longer dispite being neighbours. Hmmm. Sounds suspicious. Is this true or plain balls? I suspect that my line is de-graded and BT won't replace/re-route to cut their costs. I wonder if using another ISP will do better (may be they have the power to get BT to re-route)?

Your feedback is welcome.

Alas BT is under no obligation to provide any broadband service, as you've found.

Another ISP will not alter the phone line length, but a LLU one may avoid the issues that the IP Profile, and DLM system from BT introduce. ADSL2+ will be of no use to you.

What you needed to do was some checking while the ADSL was still active, i.e. stats from the modem after just switching it on, and then again from when plugged into the test socket. The test socket (documented in front of Telephone Book) disconnects your extension wiring, which can often be the problem on longer lines.

As for your line being longer than the neighbours, it is entirely feasible, without access to attenuation, connection speeds and noise margin figures it is hard to say more. The difference in distance does not need to be massive, as ADSL is a very weak signal and a little distance difference can mean losing a lot of speed at the edges of its reach.

Ordering a re-route, if willing to pay then BT might, and by pay it may mean £1000's.

Thank you.

Fortunately, I still have 14 days before the service expires. So I will test and document my findings.

Also worth a visit to www.speedtester.bt.com and posting the full text from the result.

It may be you are connected at a reasonable speed, but are getting messed up by the way the IP Profile setting works

I will do the tests tonight.

On another note, before I moved into the property I did a test on the line (via BT Wholesale link) using the old owner's phone number. The test returned much better results... 0.5-1M (if I remember correctly).

I have a different phone number now in the same house with BT and the same BT Wholesale link returns 0.256 for this new number.... So why the change? May be my memory is wrong... However, I don't think that anything physically changes with a number change... Or am I wrong? Could I have been put on another line physically? Seems silly. I was happy to keep the old owner's phone line and setup anyway.

Did they have broadband via a BT Wholesale provider?

The checker generally updates to reflect the real world figures, whereas prior to that it is an estimate for the area

Good question. They were definitely with BT as he gave me his account number etc. in order to trasfer his service into my name when I moved in. BT still provided me with a new account and new number anyway.

He never really used his internet except for checking his emails once in a while.

since you are new to the house, can you look for anything that might be joined to the phone line (alarms for instance) and verify filters are in place.
the next step will be to test from the test socket... - then remove any spurious wiring...

Here are my results from: http://www.speedtester.bt.com/

Download speedachieved during the test was - 109 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 50-250 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :160 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 135 Kbps

For this test:
I plugged the BT HUB into the main socket (very old setup [more on that later]). I connected my laptop directly to the GigE port. No other internet traffic was present on my LAN.

Details from BT HUB:


ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 12:56:26
Downstream: 160 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.9 dB / 16.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 69.6 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 13.4 dBm / 12.4 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 3618898 / 354
CRC Events (Down/Up): 5717 / 332
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 3521 / 264
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3976 / 675

With a downstream attenuation of 69.6dB (if correct) reported by the Hub you are doing well to get BB at all.

With regard to your neighbours' connections you would have to check what their downstream attenuations are from their router stats.to compare line lengths to that of your own.

Some routers or a router with 3rd party firmware may work better on a long lines like yours (or may not as it can be trial and error) than the supplied hub.

e.g. 2Wire 2700HGV or a Netgear DG834GT loaded with DGTeam firmware, these routers can be found on eBay.

Your stats suggest there is not much room for improvement. If the line is stable then a better modem such as that in a BT business hub may give you a significant increase. Get a 2wire 2700 HGV - on ebay for around £10 and try it out. The 2wire, will, on a stable line sync with a 3dB SNR and hence a faster downstream speed.

I plugged the BT HUB into the main socket (very old setup [more on that later]).

That may be part of your problem. Please either post a link to some photographs or clearly describe exactly what it is you have.

Indeed. If there's multiple old wiring extensions around the house and bell wire shenanigans, it may very well be your internal wiring causing the problems.

I will go into more detail about the old wiring later but I disconnected the bell wire last night and re-ruan the test this morning:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 906 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 200-1000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :1184 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 1000 Kbps

Big improvement.

ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 08:59:44
Downstream: 1.156 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 3.9 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 69.4 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 16.7 dBm / 12.4 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 3269271 / 10
CRC Events (Down/Up): 53 / 16
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 288 / 10
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 32 / 7

FYI - I live in a very long bungalow, so there are large distances between phone cables/connections in my description below.

The old wiring is very similar to the description on this site for "No NTE5 Master Socket?":
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
1/ BT copper pair come into the attic and go into a very old plastic distribution box (BT branded).
2/ Inside the box two phone cables connect (star style) via blue pair to the BT copper pair. The orange cable from these lines connect to each other.
3/ One cable goes to master BT socket with cap inside. There is a further extension from this socket to a phone socket in the attic above the kitchen.
4/ The second cable goes to the office.

As a result of disconnecting the bell wire, my connection speeds have greatly improved.

Going forward:
1/ Remove all extensions
2/ Install pre-filtered face plate on master socket.
3/ Buy the 2700HGV router.
4/ Use LLU instead of BT. Any recommendations? Edit: Hmm. No LLUs in my area. Will it still be better to use a different ISP to BT (non-LLU)?

Any feedback? Is this the best way forward?

Your help is much appreciated.




Note

Edited by deleted (Wed 27-Jul-11 11:37:23)

FYI - if you have not guessed already, then all the previous anonymous posts relate to me (sorry for not signing them).

there is still some scope for improvement, however, I think the next thing to do is 'persuade' bt that the line does support broadband, and not to disconnect your service

In reply to a post by BroadbandMonkey:

FYI - I live in a very long bungalow, so there are large distances between phone cables/connections in my description below.

The old wiring is very similar to the description on this site for "No NTE5 Master Socket?":
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
1/ BT copper pair come into the attic and go into a very old plastic distribution box (BT branded).
2/ Inside the box two phone cables connect (star style) via blue pair to the BT copper pair. The orange cable from these lines connect to each other.
3/ One cable goes to master BT socket with cap inside. There is a further extension from this socket to a phone socket in the attic above the kitchen.
4/ The second cable goes to the office.

As a result of disconnecting the bell wire, my connection speeds have greatly improved.

Going forward:
1/ Remove all extensions
2/ Install pre-filtered face plate on master socket.
3/ Buy the 2700HGV router.
4/ Use LLU instead of BT. Any recommendations? Edit: Hmm. No LLUs in my area. Will it still be better to use a different ISP to BT (non-LLU)?

Any feedback? Is this the best way forward?

Your help is much appreciated.




Note

RE: going forward:

1/ Check

2/ Check - I recommend 'Clarity.it' ones personally. They have a 'hardwired' master plate, so you can run a filtered phone extension and/or an unfiltered ADSL extention from the back of the plate to a slave point elsewhere (great if you want the wiring hidden). Just be sure to take a look at the plate you're going to buy and judge if it will fit onto your existing backplate. Not sure about that 'distribution box' you mention. A couple of photos might help.


3/ Check (can't comment actually, so I defer to MHC's judgement)

4/ I doubt if any ISP will be markedly better than BT for your line. Given your speeds, you might want to look for an ISP with a track record of either reliability and or low prices and get the best bang for your buck. I assume you are Market 1? See if Plusnet's prices are competitive (both for phone line rental, call packages and broadband).


If you decide to go with the hardwired option, remember to get some decent CAT5 cabling for it all. What ADSL speeds you have will need decent extension wiring if you're extending it.

re 3.

It is known as one of the best long line routers for stability and holding and low margins. Even if there is now speed improvement there should be stability at for around £10 worth trying.

Plus it has fairly good stats available along with historic sync/loss of sync info and bit loading graphs - all worth looking at on problem lines.

In reply to a post by ggremlin:

... however, I think the next thing to do is 'persuade' bt that the line does support broadband, and not to disconnect your service

I agree - that is vital!

@BroadbandMonkey - if I'm not mistaken it is Openreach that declare the line unfit, so you won't even be able to order from another ISP. So you need to get on your broadband people and "pretend to" eat humble pie and explain it was a problem with your wiring. Get the cut-off rescinded.

The old wiring is very similar to the description on this site for "No NTE5 Master Socket?":
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
1/ BT copper pair come into the attic and go into a very old plastic distribution box (BT branded).
2/ Inside the box two phone cables connect (star style) via blue pair to the BT copper pair. The orange cable from these lines connect to each other.
3/ One cable goes to master BT socket with cap inside. There is a further extension from this socket to a phone socket in the attic above the kitchen.
4/ The second cable goes to the office.

So, considering that information:

1/ If the junction box is marked "BT" it can't be that old. Only 30 years, maximum.
2/ The orange (or is it orange/white ?) wire is the linking "bell" wire.
3/ You correctly call it a master socket but it will be a LJU2/1A (probably), not an NTE5/A. The attic extension will be daisy chained from the master socket.
4/ The office is at the other end of the star connected cable mentioned at 2/.

As there is no existing NTE5/A, none of the internal wiring is your responsibility. It was originally the responsibility of BT, now OR are responsible for it. You need to get back to your ISP (is that BT?) and ensure that they are aware that the internal wiring (owned by OR) is substandard without an NTE5/A and it needs to be rationalised. That will require an OR engineering visit to fit an NTE5/A and, possibly, a SSF -- an NTE2005.

If you ask the engineer, he would fit the NTE5/A and NTE2005 in your office. I assume that is where you would like to site the modem/router?

Once that is done, you can then run your own telephony extensions from the filtered IDC2 & 5 connectors on the back of the NTE2005.

If you would like a definitive statement of your current wiring situation, please take a clear photograph at each of the four relevant points and then make them accessible for viewing.

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 28-Jul-11 00:41:42)

You are spot on there regarding your understanding of my wiring.

I will talk to BT about it.

Thank you again.

(I am now back with BT on BB and have the 2700HGV router on order).

you wont get anywhere on this other than maybe ordering a 2nd line and hoping that that line is better quality. BT have no morals about ensuring equal service to everyone in any given area. Its just pot luck.

eg. on the tbb coverage map which shows estimated speeds etc., my area is most covered by yellow and red dots, indicating moderate to poor speeds due to line lengths. However there is random green dots in there scattered about which means a few lucky people for whatever reason probably have lines that have better routing somehow or have superior quality cabling. (maybe replaced after a line fault). Likewise in the green areas there is occasional red dots.

I think BT have morals about providing everyone in the same area with the same speeds. To do so they would reduce everyone to the lowest speed

But then making the worst line work the same as the best could require replacing the line all the way back to the exchange and as they have no requirement to provide a particular speed it would be wasted money for them so you can understand why they don't do it.

I can understand yes, but I certianly wouldnt be proud of that service if my company. I would either take the hit on profits to fix the poor lines or vary the monthly sub based on speed.