Holiday park hot spot installation. Advice appreciated.

Sorry for what must look like a truly weird question, but. . . We have a static holiday caravan at a park in the country. We can only use the van between April and November. We actually manage to use it for the equivalent of 3 months a year. But pay site fees for 12 months. Fair enough.

A group of us would like to be able to have a wi-fi hot-spot at our members' clubhouse. There is a phone line there. But we#re being told, we can't create a hot=spot there for use by van owners because the phone line is unsuitable. Instead, we must have trenches dug and BT lines run to our invdividual vans and pat a fortgune for 12 months' contracts when, as will be seen, we're not at the park for anything like that time.

My question is this:

The payphone box attached to the incoming telephone line belongs to Southwestern Bell Telecom. It is a Solitaire 2000 model. It says a user cannot speak to a BT Operator on 100 or 155, or to BT Directory Enquiries on 152 or 192. The minimum fee to make a call is 20p.

It's because of the presence of this payphone that we're being told no, the line isn't suitable for us to make use of with a wi-fi aset-up. But the coinbox actually connects to a standard master socket box marked BT OPENREACH. So, uh, that surely means it's a BT line which is coming in???

Help would be appreciated as we'd really like to understand *why* we can't make use of this phone line for the benefit of holiday park van owners -- we just want to have the equivalent of a little Internet Cafe in the clubhouse. Local management is so hazy about technical stuff, hence telling us the existing clubhouse line won't work for us / can't be adapted for use as we'd hope.

Help appreciated. Thanks.

My understanding is that payphone lines are a special contract that does not allow you to use additional services on them (such as broadband). It would have to be moved to a standard contract to be able to use for broadband and then it wouldn't be usable as a payphone line.

Easiest way would be to get a new bt landline put in there with a normal telephone contract and run the broadband off of that. But, BT might consider it to be an invalid use of broadband (ie sharing it between a number of users rather than having a line each, BT might even consider it to be a business use which would require business contracts).

Ian: many thanks indeed for the fast response -- that's much appreciated!

So it rather looks as though the best way is to contact BT direct and follow the ideas you've outlined -- commercial contracts notwithstanding!

Hi,

You'd obviously need the co-operation of the owners of the clubhouse but your best bet is probably for someone to sign up to have a line installed in there and add broadband to it.

You could then split the cost between you and use the broadband how you please.

As far as I know, there is a standard install charge for lines (I think it used to be around £120) and then it's BT's problem how they get the line in there - if they have to dig up roads etc then so be it....but usually they will send a multi-pair cable to a building will be able to provide several lines - so you'll probably find that they'll bring the line out from either a central box somewhere or out of the back of that existing Openreach socket.

You'll want to order it under a single name (ideally placed by the clubhouse guys if they will co-operate) and as far as BT are concerned, the line is for use by the clubhouse...

Ian

Well if BT retail would take issue with the use of broadband provided by them (which I doubt), pretty much any other ISP would be fine with it! JUst check the contract for liability in the event of illegalness.

Have you tried putting the payphone number into an ADSL checker to see whether it can have service or not.
If management are "haxy" it may be that they have assumed it won't work rather than it not doing.

One thing that can prevent broadband is if metering pulses are used on the line (common for _some_ types of payphone) but I would expect the line checker to say "no" in that case.

Does it actually belong to SWBT? Who empties the coin box and takes the money?

A Solitaire 2000 does not use any of the standard payphone signalling but does everything internally and as such does not make the line itself incompatible.

Who pays the line rental and to which operator do they pay it?

What happens if you unplug the Solitaire and plug in a normal phone - can you make a call?

The first thing to do would be to pop the number into a checker and see what it says
I would use https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html
and this will tell you one way or another. If it says no, then it may be an issue getting the existing line converted, so a new line would be the best way forward, then any issues or changes to the payphone will not effect your broadband, and the cost would not be too bad if split between everyone.
As has been said, when BT install almost any lines they always run it with a spare pair, and this should be able to be used for the new line, so no worry about getting the site owners to agree to road works.
Let us know what the wholesale checker says then we would be able to advise better.

Have you considered mobile broadband from 3 or Vodafone or the likes? Might be all you need, especially if you get a good signal at the holiday park.

In terms of hot spots, a BT Total connection means you get a BT Fon hotspot available, and while not free is allowed for in the contract. People with caravans and BT Total at home would be able to access this for free, others would pay.

If there is a good 3G signal, then a MiFi type arrangement to create a hot spot would be a good no/low contract option for doing things.

Besides BTFON, you could just get a FON wireless router from FON.
Allows 5 users free access ( via Friends) and other users can buy day passes with some of the money coming to you !
Have you looked at the need for a good outdoor aerial ?

Unlikely the payphone will be on a 'payphone line' as that model doesn't need meter pulsing and will work on a normal line. Maybe that the existing line is not with BT Retail. Or maybe it already has broadband on it.

What happens when you put the number in the number checker? .

Right. First off: many, many thanks to everyone who has been so kind as to reply. Second: everybody who did, they now have a free holiday! I'll send directions to the park, once you've gone around the back of the gas works, it's there. Next to the animal fats rendering complex.

In addition to my thanks, many apologies, too for this belated response: I'm on holiday at the caravan, so, er, no, I don't have Internet access. I've had to go off to a wifi hot spot elsewhere to come back on here.

In answer to the points raised here, and I'm sorry I can't do so individually with each poster -- no discourtesy intended, but it's awkward here -- the situation is as follows:

1) Yes. I had BT check the number of the clubhouse line (the line going into the Payphone.) BT reported back there was no problem with providing Broadband. (There is the usual problem with line length in a rural area though, but anyway, BT says at least 1Mbps will be possible.)

2) The park is located in a place somewhat off the beaten track, which is why it appeals. But it's an absolute sod for mobile phone signals -- you can barely get anything. So anything cellular-related isa pretty much out. (As an indication of reception problems, no-one can get the Freeview terrestrial service. But we're managing with Freesat just fine, so no problem there.)

3) I think the park owners will be amenable to any approach from us providing it doesn't look as though it's going to hit their pockets too hard. We as van owners would actually want to pay as much of the cost ourselves, shared out between us, but of course we don't really know what we're looking at financially until the park owners get onto BT.

4) I don't think any of us are with BT Broadband at home. Some poor souls seem to have TalkTalk (aaargh), a lot have Sky. Others, Virgin. I'm with Newnet -- I bust up with BT after the Phorm affair, and swore never to go back. Hmm. So now I'm missing the fun of FON then.

Anyway. . . Given that yes, the existing line to the Payphone definitely is recognised by BT as broadband capable, and that cellular-related options aren't available at the park, is it the general consensus then to ask the park owners to see about installing a second business line?????

Or, instead, to ask BT to do whatever is necessary to activate the second 'paired' line (God, I hope I've understood everyone here) so it can be connected to a BT Broadband hub???

As usual, my apologies for being really thick here -- and, also as usual, my sincere thanks to everyone for coming to the rescue.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Does it actually belong to SWBT? Who empties the coin box and takes the money?

A Solitaire 2000 does not use any of the standard payphone signalling but does everything internally and as such does not make the line itself incompatible.

Who pays the line rental and to which operator do they pay it?

What happens if you unplug the Solitaire and plug in a normal phone - can you make a call?

Ah, brilliant! We'll see if we can do that. It might even be that this isn't a business line anyway, but domestic (if the Solitaire doesn't interact with the BT exchange.)

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

The first thing to do would be to pop the number into a checker and see what it says
I would use https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html
and this will tell you one way or another. If it says no, then it may be an issue getting the existing line converted, so a new line would be the best way forward, then any issues or changes to the payphone will not effect your broadband, and the cost would not be too bad if split between everyone.
As has been said, when BT install almost any lines they always run it with a spare pair, and this should be able to be used for the new line, so no worry about getting the site owners to agree to road works.
Let us know what the wholesale checker says then we would be able to advise better.

Thanks so much for that -- I meant to say in my earlier response, the BT ADSL Checker reported:

"Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line suggests it is VERY UNLIKELY (BT's capital letters, not mine) you will be able to receive fixed 512kbps or 256kbps broadband service due to the very long length of your telephone line. However, your order will be accepted if you wish to place it. An ewngineer may need to visit. . .

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically, the line speed would range between 750kbps and 2.5Mbps."

So unless I'm really misunderstanding everything here (not unusual) despite the fact BT has said it's VERY UNLIKELY that some kind of fixed kbps service can be managed on that phone number, it can manage ADSL Max Broadband.

Or, er, not.

So unless I'm really misunderstanding everything here (not unusual) despite the fact BT has said it's VERY UNLIKELY that some kind of fixed kbps service can be managed on that phone number, it can manage ADSL Max Broadband.

Yes it can. Or at least it will try, and probably succeed.

It will almost certainly only be usable for browsing and email. If any user starts trying iPlayer then everyone else may as well give up. Unless you get a fancy router that will screw the iPlayer user, but I know little nothing about Qos.

The 512kbps and 256kbps rules are/were based on particular attenuation figures, conservative as all BT systems in that respect. For example IIRC at over 40dB it said you couldn't get 2Mbps fixed, but on ADL Max, which just does the best it can, you can easily get over 5Mbps.

What's the actual setup? Can the phone be unplugged from the master socket? If so, given that the existing line appears to be BT Wholesale, and the payphone could very well not be anything to do with Bell Telecom other than physically bought from them, why not just order broadband on it - as the payphone would just connect to the filter?

You need to find out who the line rental is paid to. I googled the company named in your OP, and also "in the UK" and it has a complex history. Plus I came across a recent CV of a director of the UK arm - I forget the company name right now. Began with a "O".

As some have indicated, the Solitaire 2000 payphone is not a 'real' payphone that requires a special BT line to enable it to work. It's a type that is popular with pub landlords and the like, to put on the bar for customers to use - and pay for their calls.
I lived in a pub for 6 years. They had one but it was just on the normal phone line and their other phone in the living area was on the same number.
Just a pity that the ADSL check shows such a low possible connection rate that could mean restricting potential users.

if it is a shared line, there is a chance that the 'office' may already have broadband through it.
also worth doing a search of local wireless access points,
they might have a bt openzone/ fon one and not know about it!

edit, added last sentence

Edited by ggremlin (Wed 10-Aug-11 19:34:14)

In that case then you can ADSL although as Bob said don't expect too much from the line, but it will install and run albeit slowly, but more than enough for web/email etc
If the phone line is an unknown don't go with BT as they normally want to match the phone line with the broadband, but most other providers (us included) don't link them so as long as you have permission from the camp owners/bill payers then you should be good to go.

for broadband it makes no odds if its res or business, phone line is the same, I would not even go to the bother of ordering a second line if the owners are happy to just let you order broadband, then you just pop a filtered faceplate on the payphone and connect the wifi router there in the clubhouse, and if you get a good N class you may even be able to pick up the wifi from your van, or if you wanted to get clever and spend a little more you could get a second wifi access point and set up a repeater, but maybe getting a little ahead here.

Just get the line enabled for broadband and sort your own wifi out.

Do not go with referral agents that market on the forum that have hard capped services. Go with 'unlimited' services provided by firms like BT and TalkTalk.

Care to tell us who is posting referral links on the forums?

Referral operator 'vivaciti' is marketing to the OP yet has hard capped products which would totally unsuitable for the OP running a small wifi setup to serve a campsite type of operation. .

Providers such as BT and TalkTalk offering 'unlimited' products at low prices which would be suitable for a small wifi setup on a campsite. The OP could plug in and forget.

Whereas curiously Vivaciti advises the OP to avoid BT and go with providers such as Vivaciti.

In my opinion going with hard capped providers is poor advice to the op. This is because hard capped providers will cost the campsite money or problems should campers exceed the usage limits.

The payphone onsite does not need meter pulsing to operate and so is irrelevant.

Edited by deleted (Wed 10-Aug-11 20:43:05)

Vivaciti makes a very valid point. BT retail will add their broadband package onto the existing account. maybe it is possible to split the account but I have never seen it (I work on BT 154 business faults).

I know of no other operator that can do this unless there is an LLU arrangement. Vivaciti merely (well helpfully actually) pointed this out with the inference being that virtually any one of dozens of ISPs might be a simpler option, especially from the line-renter's point of view, who does not need any extra hassle.

BTW - OP - next to the rendering plant? lovely!!

BTW I do acknowledge that an uncapped product is also a very important point. Whoever takes on the BB contract on behalf of the owners needs to avoid the possibility of excess charges.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Vivaciti makes a very valid point. BT retail will add their broadband package onto the existing account.

More specifically, if the line rental is not with them they will insist on it being moved to them.

This is why I asked earlier to which CP is the rental paid. It is their policy on this that matters. As indicated by vivaciti.

The earlier info that broadband was not available on the line may be true or false, depending on the line rental comany's policy. So who that is is a vital piece of information. It determines whether or not a change of rental provider or even a second line is needed.

Your quite clearly reading something else, at no point was we recommending our services, you really should take a day off!
From my posts I was trying to advise on how to check if there is anything stopping him ordering broadband, I advised that he need not bother installing a second phone, I informed him that BT don't (or never used to) allow res broadband to be installed on a bus line and may not allow broadband to be ordered on a line that was not owned by the OP.
And we do have unlimited products it just does not suit your trolling though.

Additionally, "referral agents" is more aptly applied to the many broadband rating sites, who only compare ISPs who pay for representation in their comparisons. (Plus I assume "click-through" revenue).

The man has a very virulent bee.

What I will give him is that at the moment Infinity, (for whatever commercial/marketing reason), is very hard to better. Two years from now, with greater takeup, ....

The relevance of Infinity to the OP's needs seems slight. The relevance of your input, bearing in mind the OP's opinions of BT Retail, seems high.

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

I informed him that BT don't (or never used to) allow res broadband to be installed on a bus line and

WRONG - It is possible to but a residential service on a business line or a business service on a residential line. I know - I have done it several times.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

BT retail will add their broadband package onto the existing account. maybe it is possible to split the account but I have never seen it

Can easily be done.

Recently I have set up a friends connection - he has a line provided and paid for by his employer (a business line) and he has had a residential ADSL service added to that for which he pays.

In my case, the line is residential and the VDSL service is a business service invoiced totally separately on a totally different account.

Broadband from BT or another ISP?

All from BT

I had no idea when I posted this fairly weird query that it would receive such helpful and informative responses. Many many thanks to everyone, we're going to see the [park owners early next week, see what we can sort out.

The info here though about the payphone has made an enormous difference. And the various suggestions for different approaches to the problem -- incuding, if at all possible, not bothering with the cost of the extra business line.

I'd never seen or heard of a 'Solitaire' payphone box before so its significance actually passed me by until people here picked up on it and pointed out that it wasn't likely to be interfering with, well, anything.

I'll report back here next week (at risk of boring everyone silly) but this is just to say a quick thank you for now. And that tours of the fats rendering plant begin this afternoon, all campers are welcome to join.