Held hostage to poor broadband ! (orange, )

I signed up for Orange b/b in Oct 2010 and was predicted 11mb and was getting 14mb speeds. I moved home in April to a non 21cn exchange and am now getting 5mb and 468 upload.

The connection is extremely unreliable and poor. Having done a BT wholesale exchange check I can see that by exchange is now 21cn WBC enabled, (in the last month) and BT broadband are predicting speed of 11mb, as are Plusnet. Upload is important to me, hence my desire to get on 21cn!

I am incredibly frustrated because each time I call Orange they say "Our system says the maximum speed is 5mb, and there are no plans to improve it". I then explain that the exchange is now upgraded to new technology and I want them to upgrade my connection, but they say they can't. I try to go into the detail but the call centre staff are not really aware of what I am talking about.

I know Orange now outsources their old LLU to BT, so could it be that BT are artificially keeping me(and other Orange users) on old technology until an upgrade is absolutely necessary?

What is anyone's experience in dealing with this kind of issue?

I'm totally stuck because Orange made me renew my bb contract when I moved, and BT will only let me sign up for 18 months ( assuming I can get away from Orange!).

If you were only getting 5 Meg Sync on ADSL Max, you won't get any faster on 21CN ADSL2+, unless there is something wrong with your house wiring that can be improved.

Post your router stats to see if you could benefit from 21CN.

What;s your exchange?

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 26-Aug-11 14:07:22)

Apologies maybe I wasn't clear. I am getting 5mb throughput, but syncing at 8mb and 468. The exchange is "Dawley"

Ah, then why were you getting only 8 Meg Sync on a line capable of 11 Meg? Are you on a legacy "up to 8 meg" package?

If so, Orange may not auto upgrade you to "up to 20 Meg" without you taking out a new contract.

Also, it doesn't make sense that Orange said "Our system says the maximum speed is 5mb", when you are already Syncing at 8 Meg. They should always be quoting Sync speeds, not throughput. Their website says so.

Also, on an 8 Meg Sync, you should be getting 6.6 Meg throughput.

Hi, maximum speeds on 8Meg Max are�

Up Stream 448 (Kbps.)
Down Stream 8128 (Kbps.)

What are your router stats?

My 2Wire 2700HGV router stats.

Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 11273 kbps
Upstream Rate: 1152 kbps
Channel: Fast
Current Noise Margin: 8.8 dB (Downstream), 6.4 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 31.4 dB (Downstream), 15.9 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 20.7 dBm (Downstream), 12.3 dBm (Upstream)

Hi, go to Orange > your account > home broadband > (change your package) and see if you can change your package to 20 Meg 21CN WBC, as you say your exchange has been upgraded. Even if it costs more each month, it would be worth it, as Orange will have to get BT to move you connection from Max to WBC.

See below for my stats:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.8 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 9.3 db 26.0 db

Having gone into orange member centre it looks like I can upgrade to 20mb, only if i take out a new contract with an orange phone line. I cannot take an orange phone line as im locked in a contract with bt! ... The more I think about this the more I feel I have been conned, I signed up last October to 20mb broadband , without an orange phone line. After moving house, orange have put me on an inferior product and are effectively forcing me to enter a new contract in order to restore the same quality of service I was offered previously, surely this is against trading standards and good sales practice.

What's even worse is I spent half an hour today arguing with orange telling me there was no way at al I could get the adsl 2 product ! I am shocked that companies like orange can get away with this appalling behaviour

You are definitely on ADSL Max. You could get 14-15 Meg Sync on ADSL2+.

What does the Member Centre "Change your Package" say what package you are on now and your estimated speed?

You'd best phone Retentions and ask to be put on "Up to 20 Meg" Simply BB.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 27-Aug-11 11:13:28)

Yes, member centre says 5mb estimated at the Moment and 7mb on the Up to 20 mb . So I guess if get through to detentions they will do it? Will keep you posted, Thanks for the help

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Yes, member centre says 5mb estimated at the Moment and 7mb on the Up to 20 mb . So I guess if get through to detentions they will do it? Will keep you posted, Thanks for the help

My ISP (Plusnet) advised me that my exchange was being upgraded, but I had to prompt them to give me the faster speeds - both down and up.

Wagstaff

Orange are now saying that because I moved they have no commitment to provide me with the 20mb service I originally signed up for. They Are saying that exchanges will be upgraded all at once and they can't just do mine. How true is this ?

They are also saying if I was a new customer I would be put straight on to 20mb as " that's the way it works "

I gOt through to retentions who told me if I cancelled they would remove the credit I had been given as an apology for poor service, I pay a cancellation fee and if I sign up for broadband again they would not guarantee I would be on WBC.

How can they get away with this arrogance ? How can I sign up for a product without knowing whether I'll get eight or twenty mug , seems crazy . I have been defeated, have no energy any more . Paying for cancellation, going with bt , it's expensive but they guarantee my speed.

Simples,in my view - Orange merely sell the broadband that BT (in their various guises), who own and control the infrastructure, choose to provide. It's up to BT when they regrade your line (if at all) - so patience has to be the order of the day. I don't think Orange, to be fair to them, have any say in the matter - and are probably paying BT's wholesale arm as little as they can get away with. As always you gets the service you pay for, so they're not BT's highest priority.

The exception is infrastructure faults (hardware or software) when they're accepted by BT, but "my exchange may have been upgraded and I'm not getting higher speeds" isn't one of them. All Orange's packages (with the exception possibly of some legacy customers) are "up to 20Meg" for what it's worth, so I don't see an Orange package change would have helped, its just a change of package name for the broadband element - and would invoke the early termination provisions anyway where they apply. That's Orange. I always found it helpful to think of them as French bureaucrats (but doubtless some will say I'm prejudiced). I suspect the posters with good speeds tend to credit Orange with more praise than is their due!

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

They Are saying that exchanges will be upgraded all at once and they can't just do mine. How true is this ?

It seems absurd for Orange to say that exchanges will be upgraded all at once - this is surely down to BT's roll-out plan.
The Dawley exchange has definitely been upgraded to 21CN WBC, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be getting the faster speeds.
What results do you get when you use BT's speedtester?

Wagstaff

Post deleted by smurf46

What's More absurd is that in 2011, in a country like the uk, I have but two choices for my broadband. BT , and talk talk. Whatever happened to increased competition and free Market ?!?

BT own the local loop.

How many do you have in the USA, or anywhere else?

How many countries have the same or higher percentage of the population able to get broadband?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

What's More absurd is that in 2011, in a country like the uk, I have but two choices for my broadband. BT , and talk talk. Whatever happened to increased competition and free Market ?!?

But BT are a wholesale provider and therefore you can get the hundred's of ISPs that use BT wholesale. It is no different for gas/electric/etc - they all sell another suppliers wholesale product over someone else's infrastructure - otherwise everyone would have to put their own infrastructure in place. In fact at the ultimate cable level there is only 1 supplier in most of the country - BT. [EDIT - Not entirely accurate on 2nd read as Virgin are available to over 50% of the country as well]

At the wholesale level, as I say, there are hundreds that buy from BT. At the exchange level there may be up to about 10 who do LLU.

Compared to many countries even on an exchange with "only" BT Wholesale there is far more competition than is the case in most countries (especially when compared to the USA where I believe the cable companies don't normally wholesale their infrastructure.

Edited by ian72 (Wed 31-Aug-11 10:02:35)

In reply to a post by ian72:

At the wholesale level, as I say, there are hundreds that buy from BT. At the exchange level there may be up to about 10 who do LLU.

But not at the OP's exchange, Dawley, which is what I think part of the complaint is about.

Edited by Wagstaff (Wed 31-Aug-11 09:22:25)

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

In reply to a post by ian72:

At the wholesale level, as I say, there are hundreds that buy from BT. At the exchange level there may be up to about 10 who do LLU.

But not at the OP's exchange, Dawley, which is what I think part of the complaint is about.

I was attempting to give a full explanation. I am aware that the exchange has only 1 LLU supplier but there are many ISPs. BT and TalkTalk both wholesale their products so there are loads of available ISPs. This is far more choice than in most other countries.

In reply to a post by ian72:

This is far more choice than in most other countries.

Both you and Bob (RobertoS) have referred to the choice of ISPs in other countries, but where are the statistical analyses showing the comparisons - and are they comparing like with like ?

Sorry, the boot is actually on the other foot. You seem to think they are wrong. So where is your statistical evidence or are you relying on your own assumptions.

In reply to a post by anon1:

You seem to think they are wrong. So where is your statistical evidence or are you relying on your own assumptions.

I don't know whether they are right or wrong - I just tried to look for the comparisons and could really only find information on broadband penetration.

The problem, I think, is that if you have unexplained poor ADSL or ADSL2, and unless you are "saved" by new tech such as FTTC or the less likely fixed wireless, as I have been; you have no certainty that a change of ISP will improve the position. And you may well end up no better off and both paying more for your broadband and locked into a long contract. It's a hobson's choice, and I was in that position with Orange and frankly didn't know which way to jump.

You could I suppose impose short minimum term contracts by regulation, but we'd be paying more and it'd upset everybody. You can fight to get out during a "trial" period, but it's a hassle with no guarantee you get back what you've lost (and not if it was one of those "special deals" that abound). The broadband lottery.

EDIT: why when they are both regulated consumer industries, are my utility supply contracts for e.g. gas and electricity for a minimum period, subject to early termination payments of £10 or so, but for phones and broadband the loss of income over the minimum contract term (less a small discount for early payment)? It implies virtually the whole subscription is profit, since each individual subscriber doesn't add to the, largely fixed, costs?

Edited by deleted (Wed 31-Aug-11 12:48:14)

In reply to a post by smurf46:

The problem, I think, is that if you have unexplained poor ADSL or ADSL2, and unless you are "saved" by new tech such as FTTC or the less likely fixed wireless, as I have been; you have no certainty that a change of ISP will improve the position. And you may well end up no better off and both paying more for your broadband and locked into a long contract. It's a hobson's choice, and I was in that position with Orange and frankly didn't know which way to jump.

You could I suppose impose short minimum term contracts by regulation, but we'd be paying more and it'd upset everybody. You can fight to get out during a "trial" period, but it's a hassle with no guarantee you get back what you've lost (and not if it was one of those "special deals" that abound). The broadband lottery.

EDIT: why when they are both regulated consumer industries, are my utility supply contracts for e.g. gas and electricity for a minimum period, subject to early termination payments of £10 or so, but for phones and broadband the loss of income over the minimum contract term (less a small discount for early payment)? It implies virtually the whole subscription is profit, since each individual subscriber doesn't add to the, largely fixed, costs?

I was only clarifying the situation in case there was a misconception here (that others I know have held) that BT are the only ISP on many exchanges - I know plenty of people that are with BT because they didn't realise other ISPs existed.

I am not saying the market or the technology is perfect. It is more open than I believe it is in many other places (and I am basing this on some previous trips to the states where the Internet was provided by cable and that there was only a single supplier because of that - they don't require wholesaling by the incumbent supplier).

I also suspect the utilities are more grown up due to them being around for longer. Ofcom I seem to remember made telcos only charge a maximum level for ending phone contracts but this hasn't yet come to broadband - maybe it will.

There are ISPs out there with short contracts that actually are pretty good at delivering. There are also ISPs that are much better at dealing with issues on long lines - even where they are not LLU. But, in the end ADSL is a sticking plaster on a very old telephone system that wasn't designed for it and therefore there will always be compromises. Fibre to the home of course is the ideal solution at the moment but is expensive and who knows, in the next 10-20 years there will probably be new methods of delivering high speed broadband that could replace fibre and then everyone will be complaining about the outdated fibre technology and 2Gbps won't be enough to deliver the super high def experience we will all expect.

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

Both you and Bob (RobertoS) have referred to the choice of ISPs in other countries, but where are the statistical analyses showing the comparisons - and are they comparing like with like ?

I think if you read my post more carefully you will find I was suggesting the OP looks into that.

From what I know, I think he would find that quite enlightening, and he would be far more convinced by his own research than by any statistics provided here by any of us.

As for not comparing like with like, that is exactly the error that people saying other countries are better than here fall into. So that part of your question is highly relevant.

Cant provide sources without spending an afternoon digging, but as one who reads a fair amount of bumpf from oecd and other places it is fair to say that the UK has one of the most competitive broadband markets in types of consumer choice and price at the retail level.

Where we fail is on choice of higher speeds, but that is changing, 50% can get 50Meg at a price that is not unlike faster services elsewhere.

The impression I get from press and public at times, is that they forget that DSL and its physics are the same world wide.

In reply to a post by smurf46:

... why when they are both regulated consumer industries, are my utility supply contracts for e.g. gas and electricity for a minimum period, subject to early termination payments of £10 or so, but for phones and broadband the loss of income over the minimum contract term (less a small discount for early payment)? It implies virtually the whole subscription is profit, since each individual subscriber doesn't add to the, largely fixed, costs?

The bulk of the subscription on anything except Virgin Cable is the Openreach charge for supplying any broadband service from the exchange to the premises.

The rest has to pay for the wholesale ISP's infrastructure before the wholesaler and retailer have any profit to split.

The profit margins for the ISPs are very small. So their only requiring a one-month contract is even more commendable than at first sight. On the other hand the bigger ones need to lock people in for longer because of the huge overheads they incur in staying big. Advertising in particular.

On the other hand the bigger ones need to lock people in for longer because of the huge overheads they incur in staying big. Advertising in particular.


I think your argument to justify lock-ins subject to high penalties would hold true if a leaving customer was not replaced (which incidentally has probably been true for Orange!!). But for most decent ISPs churn would surely replace, or more than replace, lost customers (perhaps until fibre services take off and assuming the big ISPs decide not to play catch-up)?

Whilst I understand all these points, my main issues lie with the following :

1 . Orange are saying that even if I leave, and return to them with a new contract , they cannot guarantee what technology ( max or 21cn WBC ) I'll be on until AFTER I have signed up for a contract , and the bt engineer has been. Surely this is not fair? In what other situation would you be expected to sign up for a payment commitment without knowing what you are going to be paying for ??

2. Orange are also saying that it is not their fault that I was placed on an inferior package when I moved house despite the technology being available. Why are they allowed to do this without telling me ?

As I mentioned, my main concern here is upload speed and stability of connection. That's why i want to be moved to 21cn for higher upload speed. As for other countries, I just returned from Armenia, a small developing ex soviet nation that has declared IT as a priority. In my house there I get : 8 mb fibre to the home broadband symmetric upload and download, IP television with time shift that is stored on remote servers ( no pvr required !) , a landline , free equipment , and one month contract at 20 pounds a month . The company has also stated it will double speeds in November for free! Granted 8mb isn't twenty but neither is oranges , or bts, or anyone's really and it's a far more stable , and most importantly, correctly sold service.



My point is that we really are not ahead of the game here.

I don't believe anyone has said the UK is ahead of the game. What has been said is that we aren't significantly behind the game. We are probably somewhere in the middle - high coverage but not necessarily high speeds (as was stated by MrS earlier).

We aren't bleeding edge and that is largely to do with the massive investment made over the last 100 years whereas countries that have had more unfortunate histories have the benefit that as they are only now rolling out major infrastructure they can do it with current tech. But when compared to other similar countries as far as tech history goes we are not behind the curve and are indeed ahead of some.

In the end it is a league table that has many different factors and in some we will be ahead and in others we will be behind. To say we are behind when comparing to one country does not give an accurate or balanced view.

The difference it is a developing country that is spending to play catch up and may not have suffered so much in the recent recession...

Also other factors such as local costs, like salaries may make it cheaper to roll-out fibre

Over how much of Armenia was that available, as sounds very like Virgin media with the PVR stuff (VM PVR has a 10Mbps IP link dedicated to the VoD service, on top of the cable tv bandwidth)

I was an Orange home broadband customer for over 4 years (until last month). Regrettably over that time their customer service failed almost consistently to give any sensible explanation of problems afflicting my line (and could be downright misleading). They were a poor ISP in this regard (remember their main business is as a mobile operator). There has been some suggestion that their current support is provided by BT Wholesale, but this is not verified as far as I am aware. In my view the best guide to broadband in this country is that you get what you pay for, particularly at the cheaper end of the market inhabited by Orange. When others say we have good competiition: that is on price, and on up to speeds (which can mean anything) not on the quality of your individual connection. That probably satisfies most people. WBC is a service sold to the ISP, not to the consumer which for Orange is anything up to 20Meg.

I can't remember whether TT LLU is available at your exchange, if so why not consider a TT reseller, if you want on some point of principle to avoid TT as a mass market operator, though it won't help if you've a poor line quality or are a long way from the exchange: but these things could be checked out through analysis of your router settings. If there's no LLU then short term contracts are available but are more expensive, but probably a fair price for obvious reasons.

To get the best deal on any utility service in this country you have to shop around and chop and change. It's the way our national regulation works, and a consequence of our privatisations - other countries do it differently. It's why I have this "bee in the bonnet" about lock-ins and high penalites - because they inhibit our chosen market system working as it should! But as others have pointed out ADSL is a mess, it's technology bolted on to an aging voice telephony tranmission system working beyond its design capability, and which is repaired ad hoc. Why? less cost and cheaper services, and for most people it gives an acceptable level of service most of the time, and there are phased improvements both to the exchange equipment, and an expanding replacement with fibre serving local cabinets. But, as I say, more or less ad hoc i.e. commercially led not part of a national plan. That is the British interpretation of a market economy. The result at worst is your particular service can be a lottery, which is what you are finding.

EDIT: If you think you've been treated unfairly (not necessarily a breach of contract) by Orange then why not avail yourself of their complaints procedure (write in not phone) - see the Home Broadband help and support pages on their website and then use a complaint through ISPA's website if unresolved (which you can take to arbitration). You won't get anywhere with Orange if you don't avail yourself of those opportunities. Make your complaint clear and simple but comprehensive on the facts, and tell them what you want them to do: their comprehension is not good, and a bland complaint will get a bland reply.

Edited by deleted (Thu 01-Sep-11 13:53:40)