BB Router not working in extension

Hi, Im new to the site and have an issue that sounds familiar to existing posts, but slightly different. Hence I've not found a solution yet.

Ive moved into a relatively new build property (<2yrs old), and have a phone point by the front door, and 4 others throughout the house. Im connected up and have had a wireless router working from the point near the door, along with a phone for the past 2 months with no problems (using a filter/splitter in the socket).

I now want to move the router to a different room, and when I do this (with a 2nd filter/splitter) the DLS connection on the router never connects. Ive tested the phone here and it works (get a dial tone). Ive tried this in the other remaining 3 sockets and its the same issue. So, it seems it only works for me at the point nearest my front door.

Im sure this is related to the filters, but cant figure out what it is.

Am assuming this is the master socket (although it doesnt have any BT logo on it), and that everything else is an extension, although there are no visible wires (all wired into the walls).

Any suggestions please on a simple/obvious solution?

Thanks!

If your main socket has the normal filtered BT faceplate (ie it has both a normal phone socket and a separate broadband socket) and it has been wired conventionally then the extensions in the house are fed from the filtered (phone) side of the filter, so your router won't see a broadband signal at the other phone sockets.

Rewiring to take the extension feeds from the unfiltered side is possible but the house wiring will probably not be very good quality and offer high attenuation to the broadband signal.

Leave your router where it was in the main socket is probably best - either that or get a proper broadband extension lead to feed the router from the unfiltered output of the master socket.

In reply to a post by elwigler:

Ive tested the phone ere and it works (get a dial tone).

Silly Q, but are you sure it's the same 'phone #? Does it ring when you call your own #? Or dial 1470 17070 from it and see what "circuit" it says?

Hi, thanks for your quick replies.

Ive checked the details as per the questions:

1. Ive checked the actual phone number at the extension number - yes it is the same house number (and works).

2. The face plate by the door only has a single socket, and is not 'BT' - it's just a blank socket. I took the face plate off and there is nothing behind it other than wires and a very small pcb where the socket is. (Not sure how to post a picture if I can).

So it doesnt look even like a 'master' socket, so its even more confusing now!

Picture of the inside of all sockets would be useful. Host them on Photobucket or similar and post the links here

In reply to a post by elwigler:

Ive moved into a relatively new build property (<2yrs old), and have a phone point by the front door, and 4 others throughout the house.

Given the age of your home, I suspect that you have an XNTE. (Inside the box.)

Both photographs are at the bottom of Kitz' BT sockets and Line Jack Units page.

Please check, outside your home.

Hi all, thanks again. Not sure how to respond to the individual replies, so putting them all here:

Here is a link to the pictures I have uploaded:
http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m611/elwigler/

In addition, burakkucat, I looked at your links and yes, I do have this XNTE box outside the house. This would explain why my internal socket by the door doesnt have any 'master socket' attributes, as it is standard, but in that case, why is it different for my Router from all the others in the house? Is it just length and quality of internal cabling/wiring that is stopping me from using another socket?

Thanks again!

First comments: Cowboy installation of the wiring.

Those wires have been forced in with a screw driver after twisting together. An IDC terminal is only designed to take two (2) wires - they will take three but after a while may fail and certainly not if they are twisted together. there is also a chance that stripped wires are touching or touch something else.

Get a decent IDC/Krone tool - £15 or so. along with some new faceplates - those are ruined.

Pullout ALL wires and cut back so no copper is exposed. Start with the incoming wire from the external master and "punch down" into the terminals - 2 -Blue, 3-Orange, 5-White/Blue, then repeat with the two extensions (you have no real choice). As you "punch down" the IDCs will cut the insulation and make contact and the little flying end will be cut off too.

At a later date you may want to remove the Bell wire (3) but install it to start with so you are fully/correctly wired.

Do all of that and then we can work through it all .


Also, the phone being so close to power can cause noise and hum - but not much you can do about that .


edit to add:
Just looked at the pictures again and the back boxes are metal, the orange wires are very long and very good change they may have been touching.

Edited by MHC (Tue 13-Sep-11 14:36:57)

Thanks MHC,

I just wanted to check on this before I do anything;

A) This is the only socket that is actually working in the house for the router (and all are working for the phone). - I haven't opened up the other extension socket yet, but would expect a similar sight in each (in terms of twisted wires and extra length being exposed), so would expect that I'd need to do a clean up on all of them, or should just this one plus the one I intend to use for the router be enough?

B) Also, although the terminations look messy, is there a chance that the signal quality will drop over distance from the BT Openreach point (outside the front door) anyway? If so, I may want to reconsider moving my router, and opt for a wireless range extender near to the other extension socket (I dont get a very good Mbps anyway, so want to limit its loss where possible) Would you agree with this approach, or is it worth doing both?

C) Is the ADSL2+ signal carried on just one of the 3 wires? - (You said I could probably disconnect the orange at some point, so presume ont that one.) - What does the orange one do then if its not required?

D) Any ideas why I would have 3 cables here? Presume 1 from outside as the source, but would it be 2 seperate extension cables each with 2 extension sockets on it? (There are a total of 4 additional extensions in the house)

E) Finally in terms of your steps, is your 'orange' the same as the solid red in the picture? There are some white/orange cables which arent connected, along with the white/green cables shown. Is your number in brackets referring to the number of cables to insert, or a slot number? (Sorry if this sounds obvious, as Im not technical).

Apologies for going into lots of detail, but if I start cutting wires and stuff, I want to make sure I get it right!

Thanks again!

I presume that this is the first socket you have included a photo of. It may be that the extension sockets have built-in filters. Take one off and see what they look like inside.

A) It is odd because DSL will work on a single leg - voice requires both. You need to tidy up all of them - a fault or erroneous contact on the last one will feed back and affect the others. the cost of an extra faceplate is small - my local B&Q is clearing out the MK versions at £1 each!

B) You may get extra noise induced but that can only be evaluated after the router is moved. An extra 10m will only add a very small amount of attenuation - consider that the signal has already travelled 3000 to 5000 m. If you are scraping for extra speed then plan to leave it where it is and if you can, run a cat5e cable from the router to your PC.

C) ADSL is carried on 2 wires - a twisted pair which will present on 2 & 5. It can work in fault condition on just one, but that is not relevant. Orange - pin 3 is referred to as teh bell wire and carries the ringing signal which is generated in te master. Some phones require ringing to be fed separately whereas others can generate their own local ringing. Put it in, get everything check and then try it without.

D) You may be right - 1 incomer from te external master, then two extensions on each of the other two. You will need to find out which the incoming master is.

E) 3 pair telephone cable has three pairs twisted pairs Blue, Orange and Green. In each pair there is one with solid colour with white stripes and white with colour stripes - so they become Blue/White (or Blue) & White/Blue, Orange/White (or Orange) & White Orange, and Green/White (or Green) & White/Green - the first colour is the primary/major.

the Green pair are not used. Signal is carried on Blue pair (B/W & W/B) and Ringing on Orange (Or/W)

IDC connector location

1 Not Used
2 Blue/White
3 Orange/White
4 Not used (sometimes White/Orange is fitted) - for neatness and other reason which would complicate things here
5 White/Blue
6 Not Used

I said max of two per IDC but you will have to insert 3 - not nice but it should hold.



more

I haven't seen one of the new external NTEs but hopefully someone here has that may be able to answer this question:

As the OP only has 2 extension wires coming from the extension that the router is in could it be that some of the extensions are fed directly from a filtered leg on the external NTE? Do the external NTEs have filtered connectors and unfiltered connectors? If so then this box may be unfiltered and other extensions filtered?

The external NTE does NOT contain a DSL filter ad there is no provision for one to be fitted.

External NTE

OK, thanks for all the info.

Im going to have to have a little play with it all (and hopefully not break anything), so will post back in a few days when I have some results.

Do I really need to replace each IDC plate, or only if it looks like it wont connect properly now, as its been damaged by 'ramming the 3 twisted wires into it'?

I will also look at what is behind the other 'extension' sockets and report back if there is something that looks like a filter at each, whilst doing any tidying up at the same time.

Bought the IDC/Krone tool on amazon for £2.99 - not sure how long it will last though.

Unlikely to be a filter, as generally sockets with filters are obvious, i.e. have both phone and ADSL sockets.

The jaws that crimp the cable are probably pushed apart and will not cut the cable insulation any more. If this is a new build I would be chasing the builders over the cost of sorting this out, though for the price of a 3 or 4 faceplates then I'd not bother.

Krone tools even cheap ones should last for some time, unless you abuse them.

As Mr S says, the jaws will be pushed apart and no longer cut the insulation. And you will not be able to see it with the naked eye - the gap is tightly controlled so it will slice the insulation and just cut a very small way into the copper.

One wire at the bottom might be OK, but the second probably not.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The external NTE does NOT contain a DSL filter ad there is no provision for one to be fitted.

External NTE

Thanks MHC, as I said I wasn't sure how the new external NTEs were setup but thought I would raise the possibility...