Samknows and defunct LLU providers

I know this is probably a question for Samknows, but does anyone know why Samknows still lists various defunct LLU providers on their website?

For example:

AOL - Subsumed into TalkTalk
Orange - Subsumed into BT
Tiscali - Subsumed into TalkTalk

It's a potential problem for visitors to Samknows, who might believe that if Orange is listed for their exchange it would mean that they would be on LLU and not BT Wholesale if they signed up.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

AOL - Subsumed into TalkTalk

I don't believe this to be true. AOL may now be owned by TT, but they still offer their own BB; see: http://www.aolbroadband.co.uk/

They cba updating or there pretty slow now since being in bed with ofcom.

Also AOL still sells broadband faik.

Edited by epyon (Tue 27-Sep-11 15:39:49)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I know this is probably a question for Samknows, but does anyone know why Samknows still lists various defunct LLU providers on their website?

For example:

AOL - Subsumed into TalkTalk
Orange - Subsumed into BT
Tiscali - Subsumed into TalkTalk

It's a potential problem for visitors to Samknows, who might believe that if Orange is listed for their exchange it would mean that they would be on LLU and not BT Wholesale if they signed up.

I see your point particularly with orange LLU, and orange should also make it clear on their web pages that they now only provide a resold btwholesale product thus no LLU
Tiscali LLU still is in use via a reseller,and it's a different product to talktalk bb,

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I know this is probably a question for Samknows, but does anyone know why Samknows still lists various defunct LLU providers on their website?

For example:

AOL - Subsumed into TalkTalk
Orange - Subsumed into BT
Tiscali - Subsumed into TalkTalk

It's a potential problem for visitors to Samknows, who might believe that if Orange is listed for their exchange it would mean that they would be on LLU and not BT Wholesale if they signed up.

I see your point particularly with orange LLU, and orange should also make it clear on their web pages that they now only provide a resold btwholesale product thus no LLU
Tiscali LLU still is in use via a reseller,and it's a different product to talktalk bb,

And AOL or talktalk rather Aol
It would seem that although talktalk now owns AOL uk they are still trading under its name, and offering bb only service (smpf) and ip stream with a usage cap of 100gb & throttling

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I don't believe this to be true. AOL may now be owned by TT, but they still offer their own BB; see: http://www.aolbroadband.co.uk/

But as to what network TalkTalk has decided to put AOL users on is anyones guess. Given the paltry 10 GB usage allowance they may well be on BT Wholesale.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

orange should also make it clear on their web pages that they now only provide a resold bt wholesale product thus no LLU

Unlikely! They never claimed any particular platform in their own documentation. They take the view that what method they employ to provide their services is purely up to them and no concern of the consumer.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Given the paltry 10 GB usage allowance they may well be on BT Wholesale.

No, AOL is definitely LLU in the exchanges that they support (like here in Reading).

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Unlikely! They never claimed any particular platform in their own documentation. They take the view that what method they employ to provide their services is purely up to them and no concern of the consumer.

Perhaps what is more relevant is the question as to why Samknows lists Orange LLU at all, which is potentially confusing to visitors. As I understand it, Orange have given their LLU network to BT, presumably for absorption into BT's own network.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Unlikely! They never claimed any particular platform in their own documentation. They take the view that what method they employ to provide their services is purely up to them and no concern of the consumer.

Perhaps what is more relevant is the question as to why Samknows lists Orange LLU at all, which is potentially confusing to visitors. As I understand it, Orange have given their LLU network to BT, presumably for absorption into BT's own network.

This is the important bit.

Several recent enquirers on these forums have mistakenly thought Orange LLU was availabale to them, the latest being on a non-WBC-enabled exchange. So quite important.

I've just sent a message to samknows about this. They often act on material comments quite quickly.

Good stuff, let us know if/when they reply.

Quoted with permission . Note the "pricing" issue.

Evening Bob,

I've had a number of discussions with Orange regarding this, and my feeling is to remove them entirely.

For your own reference, those exchanges which have Orange enabled are those which they still refer to as on-net exchanges, and price accordingly, even if only 8Mbps is available. It is actually different from what was their old LLU network, but I can understand the confusion amongst users.

With regards to TalkTalk / Tiscali / AOL - although they are one, they do still actually have separate networks (according to my last comms with them), although again this is possibly something we should look to merge on the website.

I will discuss it with Sam and the team in the morning and look to update the site.

Once again thanks for pointing this out, please feel free to tell other users they can also contact us if they have any questions.

Thanks

In reply to my follow-up email asking for the permission it looks as though they will be giving weight in their discussion to the lack of clarity it causes for users. They are also reviewing the Tiscali/AOL/TT situation but that is more complex.

Nice one, Bob!

That's definitely good news, Samknows is the primary if not only source of information regarding LLU availability, and the information will often influence ISP choice, so clarity to end users is very important I feel.

Update - he has spoken to Sam. Orange LLU will disappear from broadband results and exchange pages, probably tomorrow. Very much because of our comments.

Orange does still have their own LLU in some exchanges afaik

For example, I have my house and my girlfriend has her house, on different exchanges. We're both with Orange.
When samknows started showing the BT21CN date on it's site for my house's exchange, Orange took their LLU out. We've been on awful 4.5mb ever since.
However, during all that time, my gf was still getting 17mb on Orange LLU at her house, and her exchange had no date for BT21CN. But, as soon as samknows put up the RFS date for BT21CN at her exchange, her service suddenly dropped from 17mb (1mb up) to 7.8mb (440k up), pretty much within a couple of days of the announcement on samknows.

So my conclusion from that is that if the exchange already has 21CN, or has RFS date set in the future for 21CN, then there will no longer be Orange LLU in the exchange.
However, if there is no 21CN currently, nor yet planned in the future, then Orange will remain their LLU stuff if it's already there.

At least, that's my experience... and one I'm not happy with.

Edited by deleted (Wed 28-Sep-11 23:10:12)

What you say happened makes sense, but the conclusion you draw is mistaken. Don't confuse the possible continuing existence of some users on Orange DSLAMs and network, now run by BT Wholesale, and the availability of Orange LLU for new signups.

Orange LLU does not exist for new signups, and hasn't done for a fair while now. For the initial weeks after handover (of the kit) to BT Wholesale nothing changed from the customer point of view, while the planning for the service transfer took place. The changeover was then phased in, and may still be in progress - though well advanced. Even if someone is still on the Orange DSLAM and network it is managed by BT Wholesale not Orange.

There have been posts on these forums of users being moved from Orange LLU to "up to 8Mbps". These may include you and your g/f, but there are others.

Tiscali network at least has pretty much been swallowed up by TT I thought

Orange has now vanished from Samknows exchange LLU availability lists.

Good!

And I've always wondered what's special about Tiscali TV to warrant a separate ISP entry.

And I've always wondered what's special about Tiscali TV to warrant a separate ISP entry.

it used to be a separate ISP - Homechoice

Used to be? But is it still? New customers can no longer buy LLU from them any more than they can from Orange, which was the rationale for removing Orange from SamKnows.

As far as I can see they were subsumed into TT which is a listed LLU ISP.

I was explaining how it came to be there, as you say it could be rationalised though personally I am interested to know what is actually present in each exchange - if the users have all been migrated onto another platform then the listing should go, otherwise keep it.