BT not upgrading

Is it true that BT have stopped upgrading exchanges to 21CN because the ADSL2+ broadband product is actually not fit for purpose (faster it may be to those on small ds attenuations) and that they get more revenue via 20CN BB customers through the ISPs than they do from 21CN.
Is it also true that there is less than 0.5% of BT customers whose exchange has been upgraded to 21CN and why have they stopped doing it?

It would seem that FTTx for the majority is a rural myth never mind urban.

20th Century Schizoid Man

No not in Wales -
http://www.btplc.com/news/articles/showarticle.cfm?a...

Edited by NilSatisOptimum (Thu 29-Sep-11 17:44:00)

No

I guess some people might think it is funny, but to point out figures are wrong, and BT Wholesale has been announcing further exchanges to be upgraded

Thanks but do you think all exchanges in the UK will be upgraded this decade or is that not possible due to financial constraints on BT.in that they need to get a good return on investment.

Obviously there has been a big push in some parts of London for for FTTx due to the Olympics next year, expense not an issue because of that I guess.

I can't be 100% certain about figure used (so perhaps I shouldn't have quoted it) but what would you say was a more realistic figure and can it be verified by anyone other than BT?


20th Century Schizoid Man

I'm pleased for you, but it looks like it is only exchanges with 4000+ users (averaged out) at the moment.

20th Century Schizoid Man

No again, if they had included the two largest towns in the counties of Powys and Ceredigion they would have, I will have to wait too!

Oh well bang goes that theory.

Hope you don't have to wait years for an upgrade to your exchange.


20th Century Schizoid Man

Households getting ADSL2+ as option from BT Wholesale 60% mark, that is off top of head - a lot higher than 0.5%. By end of decade 2020, expect ADSL2+ to be being phased out anyway, just as ADSL is now.

Also London and FTTX, are you including places like Milton Keynes, GALASHIELS, Sunderland, list of lastest 114 exchanges http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/Showarticle.cfm?A...

ADSL2+ though is actually available to around 80 to 90% of households over the TalkTalk network.

An answer to this thread - No, BT Wholesale have not stopped upgrading exchanges to 21CN.

Take a look at mine which was announced in July:

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWNETH

and another nearish to me:

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWPURI

I hope these dates stay and that BT keep rolling out 21CN to exchanges.

I believe BT Wholesale upgrade small exchanges which have a thriving market first, instead of small exchanges which are either way too small or have lots of LLU providers.

As for what you say about revenue from 20CN vs. 21CN, that can't be completely verified.

The way 20CN traffic is taken off BT Wholesales' backbone is completely seperate from the MSILs which carry the traffic off of the 21CN Network.

(An ISP can run over 21CN and not 20CN or vise versa).

Also, ISPs could (and probably do) spend more money and will be spending more money on expanding the links from the 21CN network to their own networks (An incentive to get BT Wholesale to upgrade to 21CN nationally) instead of expanding the links from the 20CN network (Although some say some ISPs are directing all traffic through 21CN MSILs, including 20CN traffic).

Finally, it could be down to how old the 20CN DSLAMs are.

The DSLAMs in my exchange have been going since: 17/12/2003 and the ones in WWPURI have been going since: 24/03/2004.

Apart from WWMINE which has a larger line count, Those two exchanges are the only ones in the area getting 21CN which don't have it already (I think we were among the first to get ADSL when it came to Somerset).

Out of interest (OP), what exchange are you on?

Informative replies, thanks.
So would it be right to assume that all exchanges even those with a few hundred subscribers will be upgraded to 21CN by the end of 2016?

It's not likely that some exchanges will remain 20CN is it?


20th Century Schizoid Man

Thanks for your input,

Out of interest (OP), what exchange are you on?

An extremely small rural one, less than 500 subscribers.
Didn't get ADSL till August 2005 and Max till March 2006.
No LLU and obviously no 21CN or upgrade date.


20th Century Schizoid Man

That would be a dangerous assumption to make.

Have you heard of the 2015 USC, and the government ambition to have 25Mbps available to 90% of population by 2015?

With your size exchange you are in the last 10% probably, so a lot will depend on how your county council/local authority obtain money for upgrading broadband.

There is little or no money to be made from the small exchanges, and yours probably only got ADSL in 2005 due to some extra funding from somewhere.

Some exchanges with more recent DSLAM's (like yours) may run at up to 8Mbps for a good few years, but connect onto the 21CN network for backhaul.

Remember ADSL2+ is only of use if you already get 4Mbps or more. If your connection speed is lower than that, then not likely to see any speed improvement.

There is little or no money to be made from the small exchanges, and yours probably only got ADSL in 2005 due to some extra funding from somewhere.

Once again you are correct

I guess it's better to have some form of broadband than none at all as I read somewhere that the USO is only 28.8kbps or was it changed to 2Meg? (is that sync rate rather than a minimum throughput USO of 2272kbps?)


20th Century Schizoid Man

Im not sure there is any way of reading a method into the way BTw makes these decisions.

Take
SWTB - line count 3240, got ADSL 06/04, Upgraded to ADSLMax 03/06. HAS RFS date 01/12
SWHV - line count 6992, got ADSL 05/01, Upgraded to ADSLMax 03/06. HAS RFS date 01/12
Compare with
SWPM - line count 7997, got ADSL 05/01, Upgraded to ADSLMax 03/06. NO RFS Date Set.

SWPM - the largest exchange in the county, with several industrial parks, and an identical "in date" service to SWHV has no RFS date for WBC, yet SWTB, half the size, and with minimal industry - has an RFS date, go figure.

Fortunately TalkTalk have just added SWPM to their list of targeted exchanges, so hopefully those on SWPM will be able to escape BTw, just gotta choose a decent reseller and avoid the abysmal TalkTalk group customer service experience.

Hmm blimey, I haven't seen that before.

To be honest, that is pretty shocking - 10 year old DSLAM's in there being the only option unless you go down the leased line lane!

Regarding that list of 'Targeted Exchanges', are you referring to that tool found here:

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/content/view/142/156/

If so, It doesn't really indicate much.

TT unbundled a 413 line exchange about 2.5 miles away from me and have left my exchange with 1415 lines in the 'Targeted Status' for ages with no change.

I am very interested to see how SWPM turns out with TT!

Nice to see that they have at least added it to 'Targeted'.

Edited by chris6273 (Fri 30-Sep-11 03:16:32)

Colwyn Central on that list is actually the smallest exchange serving the township. The Colwyn Bay area is served by 3 seperate exchanges, Old Colwyn, Colwyn Bay and Rhos-on Sea.

Both Rhos-on-Sea and Old Colwyn serve more lines than Colwyn Central, with Rhos being the biggest at about 8.5k lines total and still only offers ADSL Max and one LLU provider, TalkTalk (Samknows data incorrect, it's shown the same amount of lines for years when numerous new estates and business parks have been built).

Where's the logic in giving 21cn to the exchange serving the fewest lines out of the 3 covering the area?

Anne Beynon and BT Wholesale demonstrating their wisdom for all to see. Again.

Edited by deleted (Fri 30-Sep-11 08:50:55)

USO remains as a legal obligation at 28Kbps

USC is defined as a 2Meg connection from 2015

There is little or no money to be made from the small exchanges, and yours probably only got ADSL in 2005 due to some extra funding from somewhere.

Just curious: Assuming even a small exchange is hooked up to a backhaul network somewhere then the main cost for an upgrade would be some new equipment at the local exchange. Isn't there any scaled-down version of an eqipment which would be sufficient just to serve a few hundred local loops?

I know that in normal networking you can get Cisco routers for nearly all sorts of sizes. Surely the same must be true for DSL equipment at the exchange?

Yes the same is true, and generally a DSLAM is a lot of empty racks, so they fit the same one, and only install line cards as neccessary

That being the case, the costs for smaller exchange areas to enjoy more up-to-date telecom services for each user, such as ADSL2, LLU, WBC, or whatever its called, shouldn't be higher than for larger exchanges.However, it seems that smaller exchanges don't provide better telecom services.

Same here in Powys and other counties! I wait for the enlightened to answer, alas they stay silent!

Yeah I picked up on that checker from another thread/sub forum - cant remember which, and asked there what "Targeted" was likely to mean in reality - to be told by someone that in his experience it seems to be around 6 months or so until service is available.

At least I have some hope with TalkTalk... more than I have from BTw.

It seems I will have a choice of resellers too, as both Vivaciti and ADSL24 are now both offering connection to the TT network without suffering the TT traffic management and the awful TT group "customer service experience", which I have recently endured whilst trying to sort out a home move for a friend who had a phone with TT and broadband with AOL - he is now going with BT for both as he is sick of the problems TalkTalk group put in his way.

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Oct-11 23:40:23)

Because the smaller exchanges are spread over a larger area, thus more fibre to link up to the new wholesale network.

Plus some small exchanges to provide smooth switch over are limited in space, and new building work may be required, or power supply limits require that to be upgraded. Many factors, which some poor soul in BT will be crunching through.

Sometimes I think some think that BT is trying to sabotage things, when reality is more like they are trying to not overspend

Really gutted now. "Targeting" maybe a promise of jam in the future, but suddenly TalkTalk have suddenly managed to come up jam next month for some locally to me.... with RFS dates for the 2 same exchanges that Btw are putting WBC into Either matching or beating BTw's RFS.

So here I was thinking that maybe we were getting a lift from a company that had spotted that the biggest exchange in the county is being ignored, instead once again we see the same pathetic game where providers scrap for the same turf while other areas are ignored, and end up paying over the odds for old tech services while being fed the vague promise of something better sometime

UK Broadband It really is a world class joke