Annex M speeds and ISP?

I am trying to work out if I switch ISP what Annex M upload speed I would be getting based on my line stats. Currently on 21CN with a DG834PN

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 16571 kbps 1176 kbps
Line Attenuation 28.0 db 13.9 db
Noise Margin 5.2 db 6.0 db

I am not sure if it's even possible to estimate with just line stats? Is it possible to be around the 1900 - 2000 kbps mark or is it more realistic to be getting about 1700-1800 kbps?

I would also like to know what ISP's currently do Annex M? The information I searched for says Entanet, Plusnet Business but is that it? If so, what suppliers still use Entanet?

The only one I know a lot about is Be LLU, where everyone reckons the cut-off point is about 16Mbps download speed. So you are just above that.

At 16Mbps it comes out at not much upload increase, but 2.5Mbps download decrease!

That's because the way Annex M works is to take the lower part of the downstream frequencies and use them for upstream. Those frequencies provide a lot of the downstream capacity, and it seems the higher frequencies are so attenuated at the attenuation that results in 16Mbps down that they can't compensate for the loss.

For some reason as well, when those lower frequencies are used for upstream, they too attenuate so much as to provide little .

The higher the original Annex A downstream, the more benefit you get on upstream, and the less you lose from downstream. IIRC once the original Annex A downstream is above 20Mbps you get 2Mbps or more upstream and no downstream loss.

Re ISPs, Be as mentioned - on their Pro product, AAISP via both BT-based and Be-based I think, vivaciti are still Entanet resellers, as are Aquiss. I have a feeling Eclipse may do Annex M as well. There are probably others but those spring to mind.

The download does not concern me at all. It could be a 5 Mbps drop and I would be fine.

I realy just want the extra upload for my Flash Media Encoder streams. No matter the settings they all just look average. An increase in say 500 kbps from Annex M is a huge boost in quality.

Out of interest I plugged in my old Speedtouch 585 and got a good surprise, upload wise. An increase in 47 kbps.

Modulation: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,223 / 15,347
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [KB/KB]: 4.00 / 3.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 0.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.5 / 23.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 6.0

How on earth can my Netgear be 28 db on download and 23.5 here? I did use custom firmware on my Netgear to mess with the synch but can I expect the 1900 kbps mark now for Annex M?

I sync roughly the same 16500 on my netgear dgn 2000 when i swap to annex m i get roughly 2200 upload and 16000 down on the BE 3db profile with gaming mode enabled. or 14300/1900 on the standard profile.

Expect is the wrong word to use, since until you try annex M it is largely estimates and guesswork.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Expect is the wrong word to use, since until you try annex M it is largely estimates and guesswork.

My line is stable on annex A; and when I enable Annex M it disconnects all the time - and here are my stats:

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,321 / 17,076
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.5 / 24.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 6.5

In reply to a post by epyon:

I sync roughly the same 16500 on my netgear dgn 2000 when i swap to annex m i get roughly 2200 upload and 16000 down on the BE 3db profile with gaming mode enabled. or 14300/1900 on the standard profile.

The 3dB profile being an extremely important factor there, which the OP may not kow much about. Your standard 6dB figures illustrate exactly what I was telling him, and which could very well not be workable on his line.

On Annex M I mostly get 2450 upstream and 20000 down on the sync. The highest I've had is around 21500 and 2560.

My attenuation fluctuates between 15 and 18.

Take a look at the speed test result in my signature.

I currently don't have Annex M as I don't need it, but I'll get it back when MW3 comes out, you've gotta love being host.

Oh and I'm on BT 21cn, I can't get BE, but if you can I highly recommend it over 21cn.

Edited by deleted (Sun 16-Oct-11 14:31:33)

But the OP has attenuation of 28dB and sync'ed at about the best possible for that on a standard sync-time noise margin. So we don't want him thinking he is going to get your sorts of speeds, with your 18dB .

On the other hand yours is another post that shows the importance of the attenuation, and ties in with what I explained to him.

OP here. All these different results from different people = mindblown.

From another forum I saw these results. - http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1403140

Billion 7800N (firmware 1.02g)
PPPoA VC-Mux
Sync: 16296/1843
Att: 27dB/18.5dB
SNR: 5dB/6dB
Profile: High Speed Annex M

Billion 7402GL (5.54b)
PPPoA VC-Mux
Sync: 16713/2254
Att: 27.5dB/19.5dB
SNR: 5.5dB/6dB
Profile: High Speed Annex M

I have pretty much the same stats as them but a different router performs better. I suppose this makes sense with me dropping 4.5 db with a different router. But basically, my SNR also affects the speed so I should contact my ISP and be put on a 3db profile? My router is solid at 6 so may aswell try it. But from what you guys have posted, even if I have 23.5 db download attenuation on a 3db profile I might not even get an extra 1kbps on Annex M.

Technology is incredible!

One thing to try first, if you haven't already, is to see what connection speed you get by plugging the router into the Test socket, on the wall at the back in this pic. Just use a short ADSL cable though, not a plug-in extension.

You might get over 2Mbps more than now, and that would put you well over the cutoff point and make it worthwhile. We would just have to talk you through getting the same speed when plugged in normally.

Yeah, it was directed to you, I was letting you hear my experiences with Annex M as you answer a lot of these questions.

Oh and I only router that I get the 2450 sync on is my Netgear DG834G (v3), it lowers the upstream snr to 4 or 5.

All the other routers that I have sync at 2000kbps.

Here's those routers:

Netgear DG834GT
Billion Bipac 7800n
TP-Link TD-8816
Huawei EchoLife HG532
BT 2700HGV
Sagem F@ST 2504

Thanks .

You know, I would have thought there was a sure fire way of working this out (quite accurately), unless there's some magical difference between downstream and upstream attenuation I'm not aware of.

My theory goes like this. Annex M uses more of the downstream BINs as upstream (double, as I understand it). So, if we have a modem that shows us how much data is encoded downstream in the BINs that will be replaced by Annex M for upstream, we can calculate both how much more bandwidth we're going to get upstream, and how much we will lose downstream.

Right?

Or am I missing something (that something maybe being that attenuation of a frequency (BIN) on a line can vary depending on the direction the signal is travelling, eg. upload or download) ?

Should I go and purchase a v3 DG834G or is there better routers on the market now?

Annex M causes the attenuation to increase.

In reply to a post by mixt:

You know, I would have thought there was a sure fire way of working this out (quite accurately), unless there's some magical difference between downstream and upstream attenuation I'm not aware of.

My theory goes like this. Annex M uses more of the downstream BINs as upstream (double, as I understand it). So, if we have a modem that shows us how much data is encoded downstream in the BINs that will be replaced by Annex M for upstream, we can calculate both how much more bandwidth we're going to get upstream, and how much we will lose downstream.

Right?

Or am I missing something (that something maybe being that attenuation of a frequency (BIN) on a line can vary depending on the direction the signal is travelling, eg. upload or download) ?

The main thing you are missing is that the loss of download from the lower frequencies can be compensated for by increased use of the higher frequencies on shortish lines. On longish lines, ie only giving around 16Mbps on Annex A, those higher frequencies are already at capacity due to higher attenuation.

I tried to explain it simply starting at paragraph 3 of this post.

I also said there I don't quite understand why upstream doesn't gain the full amount of those lower frequencies that are nicked for it.

As usual Batboy, another single line response claiming to be the be all and end all of an accurate answer.

Please cite your claim. What you are suggesting is that Annex M (which is purely an ADSL standard, nothing more) changes the physical characteristics of the line that it is operating over, which is impossible.

You probably mean to say this: it causes the attenuation to increase because the amount of bandwidth available to the downstream part of the signal decreases because we are sacrificing good quality lower frequencies for upstream utilisation. This has a negative impact on the measurable attenuation of the downstream spectrum. Upper frequencies inherently have higher attenuation than lower frequencies, so the measured attenuation appears to be worse, however, the actual physical attenuation of the line has not changed.

I've had a sherry this evening, so excuse me if I come across quite blunt when I say this - but for a guy who is ranked as 'Legend' on these forums, with a post count of 17,610, I think this forum should introduce an additional user statistic which is the average number of words per post (excluding any words in posts that are enclosed by quote tags). This would really show up the one line posters like yourself who, in my view, bring very little quality information to the forums.

Right, I'm away for another drink.

Gotcha, and fully understood.

Maybe the exchange can transmit the signal with more power (downstream) than the modem can send (upstream) ?

Purely speculation.

Edited by deleted (Sun 16-Oct-11 21:36:55)

It's a thought. Downstream power is normally a lot higher than upstream.

Anyone considered cross talk issues in this mix?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

I would also like to know what ISP's currently do Annex M?

I have Annex M with O2 Pro (no longer available) with a 3dB target SNR.
I use the outright Annex M winner from this comparison.

Here are the number for my line (approx 1300-1400m);

DSL Up 16859 kbps / 2508 kbps

DSL Line Status:
noise margin upstream: 3 db
output power downstream: 21 db
attenuation upstream: 14 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 07 9b cd ee ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
tone 32- 63: fe ee ee ee ed dd dd cc cc cc cb bb 00 00 00 00
tone 64- 95: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 96-127: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 128-159: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 160-191: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 192-223: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 224-255: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 256-287: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 288-319: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 320-351: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 352-383: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 384-415: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 416-447: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 448-479: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
noise margin downstream: 3 db
output power upstream: 15 db
attenuation downstream: 25 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 32- 63: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 64- 95: 89 bb dd de ef ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
tone 96-127: ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
tone 128-159: fe ff ef ee ee ee ee de ed ee ee dd dd dd dd dd
tone 160-191: ed dd de dd de dd dd ed dd dd dd dd dd dd dd 2d
tone 192-223: dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd b8 cd dd dd dd dd dd
tone 224-255: dc dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd aa cd
tone 256-287: dd dd dd dd dd c7 bd dd dd dd dd db b9 59 bc dd
tone 288-319: dd dd dd dd dd dd dd db dd dd dd dd dd dd dd dd
tone 320-351: dd dd dd dd dc bc cb ab b8 28 ab bb bb bb bb bb
tone 352-383: bb a9 97 50 57 9a ab bb ba ab bb bb bb bb bb bb
tone 384-415: bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb bb
tone 416-447: bb bb bb bb bb bb ba ab bb bb bb bb bb bb b9 aa
tone 448-479: 99 99 aa a9 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 66 66 66 55 55 55

ZyNOS Firmware Version: V3.40(ANZ.6) | 04/08/2009

When using the supplied router, the sync rates are approx 17200/2000.




London

Milton Keynes

Mines 27

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Should I go and purchase a v3 DG834G or is there better routers on the market now?

I think you should, if/when you get Annex M. The router gives the same kind of sync speeds on Annex A though. If anyone is ever looking for a good router for Annex A I would recommend the Billion Bipac 7800n.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Should I go and purchase a v3 DG834G or is there better routers on the market now?

I'm not sure how many Anon posters are in this thread, but whoever posted this - if you are considering moving to Be or using their service through a reseller, that would be a disaster.

The v4 is very good on Be, v1, v2, v3, and v5 are very poor. Only the v4 has a Broadcom chipset, and only Broadcom chipset routers are good on the Be network.

I used a PN, which is Broadcom, and had a fractionally lower (Annex A) connection speed than the supplied box, but higher throughput. Plus I tweaked the margin.

The v3 blows away any broadcom router for annex m sync i grabed 2239bps upstream that was without gaming mode or 3 db profile

pretty amazing tbh but thats about the only thing its good for.

http://img600.imageshack.us/i/bbfsddfs.png/

Edited by epyon (Tue 18-Oct-11 10:41:11)

I wonder how the the Billion 7800N's Annex M upload speed stack up against the rest being Broadcom also.

OP here. Confused by epyon post. He has a much better line than me but only 12,000 download?

Anyway, afew days go I set custom snr to 3 db. It went to max 3.4 at night but now seems happy to be under 3. Am I right in saying I am setting a low SNR to get more download which will in turn get a better upload speed? If not, why else am I lowering SNR? Below is the current stats.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8780/router1.png

Or would I be better using my old 585 router which gives me 23.5 db download attenuation and an average of 1215 upload?

Thats annex m mode on the v3 on the bebox i get like 14000/1900

also that 585 is meh i have one also i dont recommend

Edited by epyon (Tue 18-Oct-11 18:27:22)

In reply to a post by epyon:

The v3 blows away any broadcom router for annex m sync i grabed 2239bps upstream that was without gaming mode or 3 db profile

pretty amazing tbh but thats about the only thing its good for.

http://img600.imageshack.us/i/bbfsddfs.png/

Yeah I totally agree. On BT 21cn the upload SNR can't be set by someone so basically if you want to squeeze more upload out of your line then get a v3. But of course with BE that's not the case as you can just set the upload SNR... giving you the freedom to use a great router like the 7800n.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 17327 kbps 1567 kbps
Line Attenuation 29.5 db 16.5 db
Noise Margin 2.1 db 6.0 db

I moved to Annex M today. I can't really get more than 1567 upload. This is with the DG834PN with DGTeam firmware. Anything I should tweak in router settings?

Can any new router I buy synch anywhere close to say the 1800 mark with those stats? ZyXel/Billion/DG834G?

Edited by gameinn (Thu 03-Nov-11 19:35:22)