Is it common for ISPs to follow others?

TalkTalk are LLUing my exchange tomorrow which i'm automatically being put on to. The problem is that i'm only expected to get about 8 of the 24mbs, which to me is far from satisfactory. Is it likely that because TalkTalk will be the fastest broadband available that it will encourage someone like BT or Virgin to install their Fibre products which could give me speeds that I want? I presume it would make no difference unless they lose a severe amount of customers to TalkTalk?

No.

No again, However you have more chance of FTTC than a full VM service!

Are you able to find your router stats? See here for help. If you can't, at least tell us what the connection speeds are now, those should be in the router GUI. Perhaps even the attenuation is there as well.

It would be odd for TT to be installing LLU kit with a top speed of 8Mbps, though I believe they do still have some in their early exchanges. Assuming they are putting 24Mbps in, then your router stats now will tell us more accurately than any estimate what you should get. Where has the estimate come from, your ISP? Which is it, and is it they who are going to limit you, not the equipment?

It may also be useful if you post the link to what samknows says about your exchange.

I think he means he will get around 8Mbps once on ADSL2+

Thats what I took it to mean too.

The TalkTalk network was ADSL2+ from its first install, just they used to cap the sync at 8Meg, later they removed the cap, thus those getting 7.9Meg saw no improvement at that time, and why some may think their exchange was not upgraded.

In reply to a post by epyon:

I think he means he will get around 8Mbps once on ADSL2+

Impossible to know what he may get, without the stats. As we all know, estimates from databases are extremely unreliable.

HI All,


This would depend on where the OP has got the infor that 8mg is the expected speeds. When LLU is aviaalbe TT will give an expected speed from our avaialbilty checker. This is based on initial line checks and is slightly lower than the actual projected speed to ensure we are managing customers expecations accurately.

If the Op posts their router stats we can see if the 8mb advised is accurate based on the line details. As Mr Saffron correctly advised LLU is ADSL2+ and in the intial stage this was capped to 8mb. Once caps were removed those who were in sync at less than 8mb saw no change (as they were already acheiving the fastest speed the line could handle), those who were syncing at 8mb found the cap removed and they could potentially sync at a higher rate.

In any case customers will get the fastest possible speed for his line upto 24mb once LLU is available as all LLU customers are now on 24mg BRAS profiles.


Regards

Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

Mi Mark,
You guys (TalkTalk) seem to be investing/upgrading more exchanges than most of your competitors - which is nice to see!

Can you provide a link that shows which exchanges TT LLU are coming to soon?

Thanks.

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6624 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 7.0 19.0
Attenuation (dB): 42.0 20.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Ummm, a bit borderline, and also a bit dependent on the actual kit in use.

The highest you are ever likely to get on that line is 10Mbps, and the more probable range is between 8 and 9Mbps. So the 8Mbps estimate is one of the minority that is close to reality.

Having said that, I would be looking for a few hundred more than you are getting now on ADSL. That isn't a lot, but if you go to ADSL2+ then whatever may be holding you down a bit could hold you down more.

Have you ever tried connecting the router, (using just the short ADSL cable and filter), to the test socket, on the wall at the back in this pic? The stats then would be absolutely the best you can get on ADSL. The download throughput speed wouldn't change for a few days even if that is higher, we would just need the stats.

Don't do this today now though. Best speed is nearly always achieved by a daylight connection.

Id be interested in seeing if my exchange is on a list for upgrades soon... TalkTalk are unbundling a couple of smaller exchanges near me, but beyond it being "targeted" there is no firm news on mine which is the largest in the county, and I am sick of BT s joke of a service

Let's hope the TalkTalk Support chap comes back with an answer....!

Hi Badger,

As exchange upgrades can be subject to change (at short notice, due to various reasons, dates may need to be amended) and there is a large volume of exchanges that we are looking to unbundle, we do not have a public list of which exchanges are scheduled to be updated and when.

We do regualrly submit information to Samknows of which some data does contain projected dates, but there are cases where these dates are passed and unbundling doesnt occur. This can be due to anything from exchange access problems to equipment failures following installation and intial testing (all equipment is tested after installation to ensure it works fully before we connect customers. If this fails on the installation date then availability of LLU will be pushed back until this is resolved).


In light of the above ensuring that any information on such a list was valid and accurate at all times would be quite an administration task. The last thing we would want to do is issue a list and then generate more queries due to discrepancies in the details it provides, or to mis-managed customers expectations. where such unforseen delays may occur

Where LLU becomes availabe in exchanges all TT customers connected to that exchange are notified via letter. This details the process for migration and what to expect when migration to LLU occurs.


Any new prospective customers would also get a live line result on the availability of LLU on the TT Webiste availability checker. As such both Existing and Prospective customers do have this infomration (i.e LLU availability) available, just not in a public disclosed list which contains projected unbundling dates.

Regards

Mark
TalkTalk ONline Community Department

In reply to a post by TALKTALK_SUPPORT:

Where LLU becomes availabe in exchanges all TT customers connected to that exchange are notified via letter. This details the process for migration and what to expect when migration to LLU occurs.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply I would have thought if you release proposed exchanges to SamKnows you would also show them on your own website though.

I know some people that are on TT via BT and SamKnows shows an imminent TT LLU RFS date. Does this mean that they will automatically be moved away from BT or do they get a choice?

In the past TT had a bit of a reputation for 'Phone Slamming' - is that all sorted out these days or does it still go on? Again, I had a client that this happened to a few years back all from a phone conversation that he didn't really understand! If this is a practice that is likely to be repeated when the exchange is upgraded then I'll probably let people know in advance.

Thanks.

Not much of an answer for me there... Coming on top of being earnestly informed last year by a TT rep in a supermarket that my exchange hadnt been unbundled because "BT wouldnt allow them acess to that exchange" (he seemed quite bemused at my laughter at that answer) I thought I had worked out the rationale behind TTs unbundling strategy.

"Where BTw bring faster 21cn services, then TT will hit that exchange, as is the case for SWTB and SWHV. As BTw cant be bothered to upgrade SWPM - we get nothing - which incidentally blows that tired old "too small to be economic" argument right out of the water - both of those are smaller - yet both are about to get both 21cn and TT LLU.

The hole in that theory is SWMF which like SWPM has no 21cn RFS date but now has a TT LLU date along with 2.700 line SWNES, SWNB which has less than 1200 lines, and and SWFCJ 2,900 lines. All these small exchanges are getting LLU in the next 4 months or so, but there is nothing for us.

SWPM is the largest exchange in the county, I wonder why it is having to wait so long to get a decent level of service from anyone. When I saw we were targeted, I had thought we were close to getting somewhere, but it seems we are still stuck in a long line waiting for some undefined date in the future. If TT wait for BT to bring 21cn here before they unbundle I probably wont bother moving - they just wont deserve the business, and I think many will go the same way, sticking with WBC providers rather than moving to TT.

Its a joke.. Google cant even get the location of our exchange right!

The exchange I'm looking at isn't a BT 21CN one - but SamKnows shows TT LLU coming soon.

PS. I don't blame Google for any of this

Hi B4dger,


I can apprecaite this perspective re the information given to SamKnows, however when we have looked into this the above is the reasoning we have for not disclosing a difinitive list ourselves.
The data sent to Samknows is not updated dynamically but rather a static list of expected dates is sent. The issue with us hosting our own list is that we would want this to remain upto date at all times, which as described would be an significant adminstration task, to reflect changes as they occur.

Its not the case that there has to be any presence of particular BTW services at the exchange. TalkTalk are currenlty working to unbundle a number of exchange to increase coverage of our network equipment. As upgrade are completed any TT subscribed on the upgraded exchange will have lines migrated to LLU once this becomes available.

Regards

Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

Mark,

Can you please answer B4dger's question: "I know some people that are on TT via BT and SamKnows shows an imminent TT LLU RFS date. Does this mean that they will automatically be moved away from BT or do they get a choice?"

It was more of a comment indicating that this exchange seeming to be *lost* in the great scheme of things....

Disappointed that there has been no comment from TalkTalk about why the largest exchange has been passed over while all the other main area ones here are being unbundled.. I guess they just dont want our money

I thought this too (WNNN), even had a target for 21cn back in 03/10, although that slipped and disappeared though two smaller exchanges either side have their 21cn RFS dates now. Although TT have since unbundled (WNNN) 08/10 and Sky weeks later.

Edited by NilSatisOptimum (Fri 04-Nov-11 15:58:07)

At least you had a date for WBC... SWPM never even had that lol, a lot of smaller exchanges around us did tho, they all disappeared when FTTx roll out started.. now SWHV and SWTB have RFS dates again.

All this time people have been telling me that SWPM is too small to bother with and yet smaller neighbours are getting upgrades while here, where we have business parks etc - Nothing. There is no logic.

Thanks for that.

Any answer to:

1)
I know some people that are on TT via BT and SamKnows shows an imminent TT LLU RFS date.
Does this mean that they will automatically be moved away from BT or do they get a choice?

2)
In the past TT had a bit of a reputation for 'Phone Slamming' - is that all sorted out these days or does it still go on? Again, I had a client that this happened to a few years back all from a phone conversation that he didn't really understand! If this is a practice that is likely to be repeated when the exchange is upgraded then I'll probably let people know in advance.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

Thanks for the comprehensive reply I would have thought if you release proposed exchanges to SamKnows you would also show them on your own website though.

They did until recently.. which has now been removed.

Matt

HI B4dger,



Yes once LLU becomes available lines will automatically be upgraded and letters sent to all customers connected to the exchange informing them of this change.




With regards to phone slamming the implementation of MAC codes prevent this from occuring, the increase duse of LLU does make this harder as migrations can only be requested back to BT. A Limited nubmer of ISP can do direct LLU - LLU transfers but this is much less common.


Regards


Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

In reply to a post by TALKTALK_SUPPORT:

HI B4dger,



Yes once LLU becomes available lines will automatically be upgraded and letters sent to all customers connected to the exchange informing them of this change.




With regards to phone slamming the implementation of MAC codes prevent this from occuring, the increase duse of LLU does make this harder as migrations can only be requested back to BT. A Limited nubmer of ISP can do direct LLU - LLU transfers but this is much less common.


Regards


Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

Unfortunately MACs don't stop slamming. I believe there are examples where phone has been taken over which because the phone is unbundled would stop the broadband from working - no MAC code required.

Thanks for the replies.

Interesting you automatically move customers to LLU - but guess it makes sense if you've just invested in the exchange installing your kit.

Presumably you would only do this if they had both phone and ADSL with you?
i.e. If they were with BT for their phone and TT for ADSL an automatic move would break things!

As I mentioned the TT 'phone slamming' all happened over the phone and no MAC was requested. It was a few years back so hopefully this practice has been tightened.

I'm wondering what would happen were ADSL is with TT but the phone via BT.

TT upgrade the exchange and automatically switches ADSL customers to their LLU service - surely this will break the customers existing phone service?

If they only move the ADSL service then it shouldn't affect phone at all - other companies have done this such as Sky, Plusnet and I am sure other LLU providers.

The problem only occurs if they shift it to full LLU but no company SHOULD do that without the agreement of the bill payer (and I have no knowledge that any company ever has done that)..

hi All,

It is the case that we only conduct LLU miugration for customer with both ADSL and Phone services.

In terms of bill payer agreement when you sign up to talktalk it does state LLU upgrades will be conducted when available in the terms and conditions

With regards phone slamming there are process to follow should this occur, although the instaces are much less frequent than they were in the past, Sale Compliance procedures across the industry have also helped to stave off the frequency of slamming

Regards

Mark

TalkTalk Online Community Department

Thanks for that. All sounds fine - assuming the 'Terms' small print isn't too small

What's the process when someone only uses TT for Broadband and their exchange is LLU'd?

He doesn't say that people have a choice on TT LLU. Which doesn't answer the question of what happens if someone on AOL non-LLU with BT Retail phone is moved onto TT LLU kit.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

what happens if someone on AOL non-LLU with BT Retail phone is moved onto TT LLU kit.

Why should they be? There is every evidence that AOL is run differently from TT and probably have their own network (but this is impossible to prove w/out a definitive statement from either co.). AOL explicitly offers SMPF for BB Only or BB + Calls on their website.

And where did AOL come into this discussion. Did I miss it? I saw OP was on TT.