Talk Talk LLU broadband any good?

Talk Talk LLU broadband has been activated at my telephone exchange over the last two months and I'm unsure whether to move to them from a good Zen Internet service.

Everything with Zen Internet has been fine (apart from the odd speed dips but that's ADSL for you) but I've heard I may be able to get a slightly faster speed from an LLU connection and also, we've already got Talk Talk for line rental, so I'd be saving £10 a month on broadband.

Has anyone got any advice?

Thanks.

Will you post your line stats for viewing, use this http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php

Mac

DownStream Connection Speed 4192 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 45.0 db
Noise Margin 8.6 db


Thanks

Paul

The main reason that you might get slightly faster on LLU is that BT (and therefore anybody using BT's infrastructure) apply what is known as a line profile (also IP profile or BRAS profile - all mean the same thing essentially), the profile is rounded down to the nearest half megabit per second so at 4192Kbps sync you'll be on a profile of 3500Kpbs loosing you 17% throughput.

LLU operators don't use the line profiles so you get the full speed of the line

Potentially more use, though, is to figure out why your sync is rather low for the 45dB attenuation reported by the modem and whether you can do anything about it. Try repeating the measurement while connected using the test socket inside your master socket and see if things improve - the "normal" sync at 45dB should be 6-7Mbs

Edited by mr_bean (Sun 13-Nov-11 20:47:25)

The strange thing is that, whilst my Downstream Connection Speed has been 4192 kbps, my IP profile on the BT Speedtester site has actually been reported as 3000 kbps.

I'll see what I can do about connecting to the test socket and report back with my findings.

My router's only about 6ft from our phone socket on a micro-filter, though, so I'm not sure how much difference it'll make.

I reckon you could get another 2000kbps out of you're line with LLU.

That's exactly what someone on another forum said to me.

I'm trying to weigh up the pros and cons of moving to Talk Talk LLU, though.

Yes, the faster speed and £10/month saving will be nice but will I suffer regular drop-outs/see my speed throttled in the evenings?

Also, there's the 12-month contract with Talk Talk, so not particularly easy to leave them if things start to go wrong.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

That's exactly what someone on another forum said to me.

I'm trying to weigh up the pros and cons of moving to Talk Talk LLU, though.

Yes, the faster speed and £10/month saving will be nice but will I suffer regular drop-outs/see my speed throttled in the evenings?

Also, there's the 12-month contract with Talk Talk, so not particularly easy to leave them if things start to go wrong.

2 Things why I would not even consider talk talk,
1, Full LLU only( They take over both phone and bb) and can /is a pain to switch back after,also can/does cost you,in one way or another, if you must go talk talk /opal, then consider doing so via a re-seller
2, their customer service/tech support, is pants via the telephone, and their sales staff are known liers, they will spin you a yarn everytime just to get you to sign up, (as that's how they get a good wage) commision from new buisness not truth

But the service it's self is similar to a few other Mass market isp's, offerings o2/sky spring to mind , the connection will be subject to their DLM so will probably rob you of some sync also the default profile will be interleaved, but have read reports that this can be changed to fastpath, (which in theory should give you a better sync rate)

Requests for this are made are via a cumbersum user forum, which isn't too mucxh of an issue unless you have no working bb connection or worse still voice service too at the end of the day, it's a mass market isp. no frills an all that, so if it works ok you will be fine, but if it don't your screwed basically,
Oh i nearly forgot their web censoring/spyware proxy, that follows you around the web in secret, plenty about that here and elsewhere on the interwebs, unless it's via p2p as that gets throttled, well what did you expect for so little money?

I wanted to go to Sky LLU (who have also recently been activated in our exchange) but mum wants to keep Talk Talk for the phone, due to the cheap call bundle she's on (which I can totally understand).

I know I sound desperate about my speed but I live in a small village of 4,000 people and BT Infinity and Virgin Cable are likely to be out of the question for another 5 or more years (Virgin Cable if ever).

My speed's only gone up by 2MB in the 5 and a half years of me having broadband!

Ahh - I've just noticed that Vivaciti LLU 100GB FUP (Fair Usage Policy) is available to me for £19.80/month inc VAT.

Would this be a less 'riskier' option for me (they say they offer high quality broadband on their web site)?

And it sounds like there'd be no worries about the Talk Talk phone line controlled by BT:

"No, for our LLU broadband, we use what is referred to as partial unbundled (SMPF is the technical term)
This means that the changes only effect your ADSL Broadband internet, and there are no changes to your phone line, or to the company you pay your phone bill to, that stays the same, the only exception to this is our Surfwise Complete package, this does include your phone line rental."

I've been a TT customes for over 3 years and until 3 months or so ago I was a very happy camper.

However, the service lately has been terrible, with constant drops and very low speeds that TT seem unable or unwilling to fix.

And getting a reply on their forum is seemingly too difficult as well - It's this that has pretty much convinced me to seek another ISP.

Hi,
And our contract is monthly so nothing to tie you in either.

Hi

I've just gone into the sign-up page and it says I can't get C&W LLU but I can get the 100GB FUP LLU (the £19.80 'standard' package).

As I have two LLU providers at my exchange - Sky/Easynet and Talk Talk, who would I be connecting through?

Thanks.

The DSL tails would be connected over TT kit but not the data backhaul, that is seperate to their network.

Does this mean I'd be likely to get a more reliable and stable connection than from being directly connected to and managed by Talk Talk?

Any stability issues would be the same as stability is normally between you and the exchange, what sort of stability issues are you seeing at the moment?
The bit that is different is the data flow, data on connections provided by us are not handled the same as a connection provided by talk talk retail.

Very stable - I think I've only had one outage in 5 years,

Do you have any idea why the C&W LLU isn't available at my exchange - is it only available at larger exchanges?

Not all exchanges have the same operators equipment in them, its a commercial decision for exchange company as to what exchanges they decide to un-bundle or not.

I'm not saying I will but if there was a point where I decided to switch back to a BT Wholesale connection, how easy would this be to sort out - would there be a migration charge involved to move away from LLU?

Thanks for your help tonight - I've got all the information I need now.

You would just request a MAC in the normal way.

vivaciti,

Didn't you also say a few weeks age that you would return the SMPF broadband to BTw's kit for a fiver and thus not have to pay any adsl setup charges to the next ISP?

No, that was MPF back to BT kit

Cheers

Looks like you may have made your mind up but to give a balanced view here are my thoughts.
I was with Zen and was very pleased with them TT then became available at my exchange and I changed for their full LLU service to save money.

I have never used TT phone help line because i have not needed it,the few small problems that have occurred have been easily fixed by using the forum.

I am close to my exchange and get very good speed, you appear to be some way out so would not get fantastic speed.

As far as "frills" are concerned I only want a fast and reliable connection and that is what I have. I have never had a problem with regard to censored sites and access any that I want.
I think it is good value for the money.

In reply to a post by Sylcol:

I have never used TT phone help line because i have not needed it,the few small problems that have occurred have been easily fixed by using the forum.

Then you have been lucky,as i said for some it work's fine, or they think that it does,but either way they are happy, all that matters really,But on the other side thing's certainly could be a lot better

In reply to a post by Sylcol:

As far as "frills" are concerned I only want a fast and reliable connection and that is what I have. I have never had a problem with regard to censored sites and access any that I want.
I think it is good value for the money.

But there does seem to be plenty of customers that it has given problems to, and some are quite rightly unhappy about the privacy issues that the other bit brings, (the part of it that the end user cannot disable)

But aren't Talk Talk LLU and Talk Talk LLU through Vivaciti different things?

I honestly believe I'll get a much better (reliable and stable) service through Vivaciti, as they manage things differently.

I'm also extremely pleased about the 1-month contract.

Well I can only speak as I have found, as user of TT LLU.

If I read your post correctly you have not used TT and only speak from other peoples experience.
If you are referring to TT Homesafe, I don't use it so don't know if it does cause problems.

TT has had a bad press but a look at comments on ISP's section on this site shows plenty of unhappy people with many providers. As ever, we normally only complain when things go wrong and make no comment when all is well.

Last night, I cancelled my broadband and requested a MAC code. Step one out of the way! Now, the long wait over the weekend

I'm doing the same - the support and service have gone into meltdown recenltly and although I can put up with some things, being ignored is not one of them.

Do you mean bad experience with Vivaciti or another ISP?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Last night, I cancelled my broadband and requested a MAC code. Step one out of the way! Now, the long wait over the weekend

I hope you did not cancel your broadband! That could really screw things up.

Re an earlier post about LLU not having BT IP Profiles, most of the post was good but it is wrong about you getting line speed on LLU. The best you get is around 84% of connection speed. In general that proves a bit more than the IP Profile would be, but sometimes not much. (As IP Profiles go in bands and if your connection is near the top of a band you lose the speed between that and the bottom, then just a bit at the bottom).

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 16-Nov-11 17:38:36)

'Cancel' meaning I had to click the Cancel button but then selected the 'I'm moving to another ISP and want a MAC code' option.

RobertoS, about not getting the full line speed on LLU, quite often (I doubt any of Zen Internet's fault), my speed has been reported by the BT Speedtester as only being half my IP profile, when it's usually around 75% of it.

As you say, unlikely to be Zen's fault, though not impossible. Maybe there is congestion at your exchange at times?

I would expect the good times on Zen to be well above 75% of profile. Are you running wired or wirelessly connected to the router? Wireless can wreak havoc with throughput.

I'm running a Home Plug (powerline adapter) to my Apple iMac upstairs (with the wireless router downstairs) and I just got 1.92 MB on the BT Speedtester Beta and 1.1 MB on the main BT Speedtester site.

A test file I just downloaded from Zen's own server struggled to get to 100 KB/sec (so less than an 800 K speed, as 100*8 bits in a byte = 800).

Is my speed likely to be more stable on LLU, as it's so annoying that it can fluctuate by 1.5 MB)?

If you are going to vivaciti I expect it will be fine. TalkTalk (direct) I would be wary of.

As you may know, I'm in the middle(?) of a migration process at the moment.

Is it common for your speed to drop dramatically during this period?

Would moving from ADSL Max to LLU ADSL2+ be the reason?

Also, should I be worried that I haven't had my MAC code yet after 3 working days?

I know it can take up to 5 working days but do BT Wholesale and Openreach or whoever's involved work at the weekend?

Thanks.

Paul

If it was you did the opening post Paul, which seems likely, then asking for a MAC should not affect anything. Nothing happens until after you supply it to the chosen new ISP.

Is it the throughput or the connection speed that has dropped?

There is no good reason a MAC should not be supplied within an hour of request. For most ISPs it is a totally automated process for them to get it instantly from Openreach, and it should then get to you very quickly. Are you sure it isn't sitting somewhere in your email, maybe in a spam folder, or in your Zen(?) control panel?

Bob,

Perhaps a MAC key is not needed if switching from IP stream to SMPF or MPF? However, as you know, some ISP's require a 10 day notice period for the cancellation of their service otherwise a cessation of broadband fee on a line can be imposed - not sure of the relevant T&C's in this case though...

I'm with Zen and it looks like no 24mb date is in sight for me from BT but I have sky and TT LLU at my exchange. Let us know how you get on Anon and what speeds are like at peak times I might follow in your footsteps.

MAC is required for IPStream > SMPF
MAC is not required for IPStream > MPF (as it's effectively a PSTN line takeover rather than a change of DSL supplier)

Thanks for the info GeeTee - Plusnet reckon a MAC key is not required if migrating broadband to another ISP using LLU, guess they are talking about full LLU (MPF) and not partial LLU (SMPF.)

It was me who did the opening post, RobertoS.

I'll let you know how I get on, Tim, although I'm not holding much hope of fantastic speeds with a 45db attenuation.

I've been getting 3.2MB across speed tests today and, whilst it allows me to watch 720p YouTube videos and stream TV in high quality (even watch BBC HD on iPlayer!), I felt it was now or never to try and get a better speed.

Living in a small village, you sit and think, "Am I going to get fibre next year or in 5 or 10 years time or never".

Unfortunately that is an all too common misconception within non-LLU ISPs. Understandable really - there's no particular need for their staff to differentiate between the two flavours day to day. It's really the responsibility of the gaining ISP to advise their new customer whether a MAC is required or not.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

It was me who did the opening post, RobertoS.

I'll let you know how I get on, Tim, although I'm not holding much hope of fantastic speeds with a 45db attenuation.

I've been getting 3.2MB across speed tests today and, whilst it allows me to watch 720p YouTube videos and stream TV in high quality (even watch BBC HD on iPlayer!), I felt it was now or never to try and get a better speed.

Living in a small village, you sit and think, "Am I going to get fibre next year or in 5 or 10 years time or never".

Thanks Paul, well I'm on full Max and it's annoying theres no 21CN at my exchange, I have bags of SNR.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

Unfortunately that is an all too common misconception within non-LLU ISPs. Understandable really - there's no particular need for their staff to differentiate between the two flavours day to day. It's really the responsibility of the gaining ISP to advise their new customer whether a MAC is required or not.

I strongly recommend always obtaining a MAC, partly for the reason 4M2 gives that if the migration takes place most ISPs take the issue as the start of the most common 30-day notice period, and partly if the user needs to argue the toss about Cease charges that have been wrongly applied. That does happen too often with a small number of losing ISPs.

The only time a MAC is not required by Openreach is a migration to full LLU, (MPF). Even with that migration, as above I recommend getting one as it is no business of the losing ISP who you are going to migrate to. It is then up to the gaining MPF supplier to ensure that they follow the Openreach "published procedure", which they should be well aware of though I forget what its name is within the system.

The "published procedure" also applies however to SMPF migrations, as they too involve an ADSL Cease of the BT Wholesale service. However in this case the MAC is required by Openreach anyway so there is rarely a problem.

As there are only two MPF ISPs, plus their resellers, this should not be an issue, but occasionally it is. One should try to submit the MAC to the gaining ISP and then what they do with it is their responsibility.

A cease charge will not be raised in the following circumstances:
...
· The End User line has been migrated to another ADSL service provider using the
published migration process.
· The End User line has been migrated to an LLU operator (either SMPF or MPF)
using the published migration process....

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 20-Nov-11 09:31:21)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The only time a MAC is not required by Openreach is a migration to full LLU, (MPF).

Or a migration away from a full LLU (MPF) service - as the PSTN service must be moved in its entirety there is no option to just move the DSL away - hence no need for a MAC and in fact no mechanism for one to be generated.

Correct . I was just trying to keep my post shorter than many of mine as we were talking about migration to ....

I assume in fact a de facto ADSL Cease occurs that way as well. Never seen it mentioned.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

most ISPs take the issue as the start of the most common 30-day notice period

Do you have any evidence of this? Have you done a survey? Also how can the issue of an eventually unfulfilled MAC contractually start a notice period? No, many ISPs require explicit notice or take it at the point of migration.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

most ISPs take the issue as the start of the most common 30-day notice period

Do you have any evidence of this? Have you done a survey? Also how can the issue of an eventually unfulfilled MAC contractually start a notice period? No, many ISPs require explicit notice or take it at the point of migration.

Evidence - observation, experience, and having read many ISPs' T & Cs on the matter in order to advise particular posters.
Unused MAC starting the notice period - I thought I had included that whilst previewing before posting but must have got distracted and posted the preview. Re-reading it, you've done a selective quote. Start a bit earlier in the same sentence . That was how I covered the point at the preview stage.
Many ISPs ... - I think you mean Orange who I believe refused to accept notice until the migration away had completed, which seemed illegal to me. A few do require explicit notice I agree.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 20-Nov-11 14:30:06)

For example, Plusnet certainly do not consider the issue of a MAC key to be the start of a notice period although it is valid for 30 days (it took 5 working days for them to issue me with a MAC key recently.) For cancellation of their broadband on a line and migration to another ISP required 10 days notice (so in all, for me, it took 15 days to migrate away from PN - played it safe by only giving notice once the MAC key was issued.)

I was not migrating to SMPF nor MPF so a MAC key was essential for moving to another IP Stream service, however PN seemed to suggest that a MAC key was not needed for migrating to LLU. Guess if I had migrated to partial LLU (SMPF) without a MAC key I could have been liable to a cessation of broadband charge on my line even though I had given 10 days notice...

Reckon it's always best to get a MAC key in all circumstances even though it may take some time to be issued - max 5 working days I believe.

Agreed, I did overlook the conditional from my selective quote, but unused MACs wasn't the main point of my post (hence the "Also").

Yes, Orange is only ISP I'm aware of that takes start of 14-day (now) notice from point of migration. However, I will not entertain court proceedings here and now .

Please name me one mainline ISP, other than O2/Be, who takes issue of fulfilled MAC as start of notice.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 20-Nov-11 15:18:54)

Newnet.

I am the original poster of the thread. If anyone wants to contact me, this is my new username.

You mean this?

In reference to www.newnet.co.uk/Bottom-Bar/terms-and-conditions.php:

1.By the Customer
1.The Customer may terminate this Agreement by giving 3 months‟ written notice, which may expire at any time after 12 months, or other time as shown on the service schedule, from the Service Commencement Date. Email notification will not be accepted as notice of termination of Agreement.
2.Some services, for example ADSL broadband, have alternative minimum periods and are subject to alternative terms which are shown to the Customer during the ordering process.

in conjunction with:

ADSL broadband services are provided with a minimum contract period of Monthly/Quarterly/Annual with a requirement for 1 month's notice of termination.

during the ordering process.

I don't think so!

Customer chooses to terminate their service or request MAC code.

If the customer selects 'migrate' then they will be emailed a MAC code which will normally arrive in their inbox within 10 minutes.
The customer is then asked to settle their account. We assume a 30 day notice period and calculate monies due.
We look for any excess bandwidth and calculate money due and raise an invoice.
We look for any unpaid invoices and calculate any credit due and apply to the unpaid invoice.

What it doesn't say there is that if you choose not to migrate you need to ring up and cancel the notice. If you insist I shall look to see if it says it elsewhere, but the layout has all been revamped since the takeover. I can't think off-hand where else it would be though.

I did have the old version posted on here, which did say this, but of course long archived so irretrievable without a link.

Where's it say this? As you say you have an old version. I posted what I found currently even to the extent of a partial application . Nothing found about MACs.

Nothing to do with an old post with the old version. That's what I said, current website and it isn't what I remember from the previous. In view of your recent misreading of something I said elsewhere, it really is time you got those specs replaced by optical ones .

Home Page >> Support >> Knowledgebase >> Articles - Newnet FAQ. Ignore the red paint about the Ticketing System, that isn't relevant. >> Regrade/Termination/Migration of service.

Entanet, via vivaciti and ukfsn and previously other resellers, (I cannot guarantee that some resellers do not impose additional terms), do not require notice at all. They simply refund the unused portion of a month's subscription after migration completes.

Plusnet is a 10-day notice period. I believe unused subscription amounts are not refunded but not sure. The 12-month contract can even be truncated by paying the upfront charges that would have avoided it in the first place.

According to aerodynamicists certain bee species cannot possibly fly. But they do. I have no video of them to link to sorry.

Finally, seeing as you are unhappy about Newnet, in a second response to "Please name me one mainline ISP, other than O2/Be, who takes issue of fulfilled MAC as start of notice", I'm unclear why you exclude a major ISP, but the following from AAISP is somewhat specific.

Migrating away

You can request a migration code via the broadband order pages. The migration code is emailed to you and valid for 30 days. Also at that point your services are charged (or credited) to 30 days notice which usually makes this your final bill if you use the migration code and leave us. This charge is confirmed when you request the migration code.

Requesting a migration code does not stop service - you have to actually use the migration code with a new provider. If you do not then billing resumes after 30 days. In the case of lines using Be back-haul you must contact us once you have used the migration code. You will at that point be billed any minimum term at line-only rates and your service ceased.

As is Eclipse

What happens once I have my MAC?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you give your MAC Code to another ISP, your Broadband service should switch to your new provider within 5 working days. In this situation, your 30 day notice period will commence on the date that the MAC was issued, and this will be reflected on your final invoice.

If you decide not to use your MAC Code, your Eclipse service will continue as normal.

Bob,

PN refunded my unused subscription balance recently - e.g. if 10 days notice is given at the beginning of the month to terminate the service then 20 days overpayment is refunded. The date when the MAC key was requested or issued was not taken into account regarding the notice period and the subsequent refund.

Not sure what would have happened if I had given 10 days notice to quit with less than 10 days of the MAC key's 30 days validity remaining though...

That's useful info 4M2.

I moved over to Vivaciti on the LLU Variety 100GB usage package today, having been with Zen Internet for 5 and a half years.

My speed has so far gone up from 3.3MB to 4.8MB.

My stats on the 13th November:

DownStream Connection Speed 4192 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 45.0 db
Noise Margin 8.6 db


My stats now:

DownStream Connection Speed 5609 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 998 kbps
Line Attenuation 48.5 db
Noise Margin 4.1 db


Paul

Good news Paul good stats.

That's cuz you moved from ADSL Max to ADSL2+, but you were getting nearly 2 Meg Sync too slow before and now you are getting almost as much as line will bear but not quite.

I spy a noisy line. That's why the noise margin was 8.6dB and he is getting below par now.

I'm not sure the target noise margin on his new package isn't 9dB anyway. If it is, it confirms the noise.

Target margin is 6db on LLU I'm on, he needs to check his ring wire or wiring.