Help with poor download speeds

Hey everyone,

I've been connected to Vivaciti's Unlimited Be package for around a week and the service has deteriorated slowly since the day of connection. It started off at almost 18MBit and now I'm lucky to get 15MBit. The connection is stable - it just sucks.

Download speeds are a joke .. bouncing from 200 kbps to 1.5MB/sec - then back again. The source is fine - my own 10GBit dedicated servers, so the problem doesn't lie there.


The speedtest below was taken tonight:

Speedtest


Should I just give up and migrate, or is there anything else I can do to improve the connection?


585 v8 Router stats:

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,253 / 16,232
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,257 / 15,060
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 18.62 / 462.13
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.0 / 13.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 3.5


Thanks

Give up when getting 13Meg from a contended source?

What do those line stats look like if you connect the router in the test jack of the main BT telephone point ? 16 meg is a low sync rate for such a short line, and I wonder if something might be amiss with your set up ?

Bizarrely, the only BT Master Socket I can find anywhere doesn't work. There is no dial tone.

13MBit isn't bad per se, but it doesn't cut it for me as I rely on the connection for work.

Speeds started off as expected of Be, but now they are, quite frankly, pathetic.

Any source I d/l from sees speeds jumping all over the place.

Could you describe the phone set up in your place ? How many sockets, of what type, what's connected to em, etc, etc ?

You need to get the phone wiring back to the point where just the first socket in the property is working, if its a mess this can affect both sync and throughput (due to error counts)

There are 3/4 sockets. The only thing connected to any socket is the Thomson 585 v8.

There are no phones, no alarms, etc. Line is silent when I plug in a handset to do the BT test.

The connection is perfectly stable, but I've never experienced such variable download speeds. Any source / country I use produces poor speeds. FTP / direct / Torrents are all the same.

Almost -feels- like throttling.

In reply to a post by lg56xbp:

Bizarrely, the only BT Master Socket I can find anywhere doesn't work. There is no dial tone.

13MBit isn't bad per se, but it doesn't cut it for me as I rely on the connection for work.

Speeds started off as expected of Be, but now they are, quite frankly, pathetic.

Any source I d/l from sees speeds jumping all over the place.

With those attenuation figures as pointed out you should of seen the full advertised sync rate of 24mbits and the 1.4mbits upstream, that line should be capable of an upload speed of 2.5mbit or somewhere very near that without seeing much if any of a drop in downstream sync speeds

And its also unusual for the target snr to differ by 3db as they i believe should be symmetrical as it's how the BE/O2 dslams are configured,

Have you contacted Vivaciti about this , if so what have they said about it, just one other thing and reason for the low sync rates which profile is the line set to, INP1 or 2,or is it fastpath ,
Fluctuating downstream throughput if this is a correct description,

could be an indication of a few different things, from interference that is causing a high error rate,or packet loss which will in turn basically kill the throughput,

Or it could be down to the BE Backhaul from the exchange being insufficient, this would also lead to a decline in sync speeds, or the issue could be down to something within vivacity's control such as peering capacity and management of that , or their networks,i would start with asking Vivaciti why you have a naff connection

You're right, but I can't really go poking about too much as this is a rented property.

Absolutely.

I've just opened a new Ticket with Vivaciti and will report back when they reply.

13/14/15MBit is poor indeed for such a line.

OK, if you can't be brave enough to have a tinker with the sockets, due to it being rented, that's cool.

I still can't help but think that's a very low sync rate for such a short line, and the common cause for such things is internal wiring.

Does the router show any error count in it's stats ?

Here's the full router stats after a manual reboot:

DSL Connection

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 1:30:21
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,253 / 16,340
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,257 / 15,060
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 62.67 / 1.96
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.0 / 13.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 3.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 17,378,329
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 65 / 2,427
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 84 / 14,020

1 hour and 30 minutes after a reboot, to get decent stats it needs to be within a minute or so.

The error stats show the line is not performing well, and may be part of the problem.

Okay, thank you.

Should I contact BT and request an engineer take a look at the line?

If the issue is the wiring in the property then you will be paying £130 to £200 for them to fix it

In reply to a post by lg56xbp:

Okay, thank you.

Should I contact BT and request an engineer take a look at the line?

No. Not at this stage. High downstream FECs are often due to the wiring in the premises.

You must check each socket and see if there is a master. If you haven't got an NTE5, where the bottom half of the faceplate comes off, then look for one like the LJ 2/1A on this page. The rest should be like the LJ 2/3A unless they are extremely old.

What was your previous connection? ADSL or ADSL2+, and what connection speeds did you get?

I'll just deduct it from next months rent.

Surely the fact that the Master Socket isn't functioning is a good reason for an engineer visit?

Very unusual to get identical connection speeds after a router reboot. I wonder what is going on to cause that.

Have you any other ADSL2+ router?

Also I have a funny feeling about 585v8 and error counts, I'll try to remember to check it tomorrow. But if those are correct they would explain both the low conenction speed, (lots of errors during the modem training), and the download speed fluctuation as the router spends all its time correcting errors and only occasionally passing data.

And they will simply contend that someone has fiddled with the wiring

In reply to a post by lg56xbp:

There are no phones, no alarms, etc. Line is silent when I plug in a handset to do the BT test.

Who are you paying line rental to? You are entitled to have a dial-tone and be able to make calls.

I just asked a person who is extremely knowledgeable about Be and routers used on it, whether they were aware of any problems with the 585v8 on the service. The answer was:-

Has an Infinion chipset, so pretty rubbish on BE / O2 - to be avoided from the 2 people I know who have tried it.

Certainly it has always been understood that a Broadcom chipset is the best for a Be connection, though one poster claims his Conexant one is better.

Ok, so I decided to filddle a little with the wiring and have now established that there is no NTE5 Master Socket.

I have found the Line Jacks master with the yellow ring capacitor, and disconnected all wires except those connected to terminals 2 and 5. The other side of the wall to the master is the point I am using - literally less a foot away. Again, I have removed all wires except 2 and 5.

After rebooting the router, the stats have improved (slightly):

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:01:56
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,261 / 16,940
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,261 / 15,787
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 13.00 / 45.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 17.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.0 / 13.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5.5 / 3.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 258,294
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 68 / 43
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 91 / 110



So I guess the next step is to wait and see what Vivaciti have to say.

sub-16MBit seems dreadfully poor given the line stats ...

In reply to a post by lg56xbp:

So I guess the next step is to wait and see what Vivaciti have to say.

sub-16MBit seems dreadfully poor given the line stats ...

Also see if the speed stability has improved, despite being lower than expected.

Note my post about the modem chipset. This low sync compared to expected is exactly the symptom of it not getting on well with the exchange kit. Similar effects can be observed sometimes with other kit at each end on other ISPs' setups.

I would be looking for a cheap Netgear 834GT or PN just to see if it makes a difference. The 834Gv4 is also suitable, but not v1, 2, 3 or 5. 834Nv1 is OK. Sky-locked 834s of one of those abound and can be unlocked, but not something I know about. I think Sky even have Help about it.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 01-Feb-12 09:39:43)

Thanks Roberto, that's also worth trying.


After a reboot I've noticed the huge number of FEC errors:


Uptime: 0 days, 0:01:54
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,253 / 17,116
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,253 / 15,890
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 5.00 / 8.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 17.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.0 / 13.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 3.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 174,000
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 76 / 135
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 125 / 194


Do these FEC errors have any relevance to the speed of the connection?

Just wondering as well, the standard noise margin setting on Be is 6dB. You seem to be on 3dB.

I know in theory 3dB will connect faster than 6dB, but in practice if there is a problem on the line I think it may not. Have you tried 6dB?

I expect it will be about 1Mbps slower connection but only trying it will prove the point.

Note that on a native Be (Retail) connection the maximum throughput is approximately 84% of connection speed. I don't know on the vivaciti Be Wholesale one.

Sorry, missed the FEC question.

At that rate of error correction I think yes. 1526 FECs per second isn't going to leave the router processor much time to pass the data.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 01-Feb-12 10:27:14)

Apparently Vivaciti 'do not use BE's network for data transit', which might help to explain why peering and download speeds vary considerably and are simply not consistent (unlike the native Be service).

Just pondering now whether to revert to the previous (stable) MurphX service, or try another ISP.

What do you folks think?

If it helps, I do know that the transit pipes are no where near to anything like capacity.
The issue would seem to be down to the errors and the fact that when you bounce your router you get a different sync, it does seem like some noise on the line and taking from what you said about the wiring that does seem more likely.
Once you have done the tests that have been suggested in your ticket that will give more idea, but in the mean time we can always raise the snr back up to 6db while further investigations are on-going.

I've also tried a v8

i was surprised how bad it was with my BE service

works well with BT though.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I just asked a person who is extremely knowledgeable about Be and routers used on it, whether they were aware of any problems with the 585v8 on the service. The answer was:-

Has an Infinion chipset, so pretty rubbish on BE / O2 - to be avoided from the 2 people I know who have tried it.

Certainly it has always been understood that a Broadcom chipset is the best for a Be connection, though one poster claims his Conexant one is better.

Broadcom chipped routers are probably the most stable(compatible with BE/O2 LLU line cards) A conexant based router will almost always provide the highest sync rate, but unfortunately , the netgear branded ones are not as resilient in dealing with some types of noise , even when used on a compatible adsl service,


Get yourself a DG834/ (G) V4 the important bit is the bit in bold, as that is the only DG834 Version that has the broadcom BCM6348 V0.7 chip

Or if you are feeling flush go for the Billion 7800 (n)
Both are tweakable, the Netgear tweaks will survive re-boots if you flash with the DGTeam F/W

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I just asked a person who is extremely knowledgeable about Be and routers used on it, whether they were aware of any problems with the 585v8 on the service. The answer was:-

Has an Infinion chipset, so pretty rubbish on BE / O2 - to be avoided from the 2 people I know who have tried it.

Certainly it has always been understood that a Broadcom chipset is the best for a Be connection, though one poster claims his Conexant one is better.

Broadcom chipped routers are probably the most stable(compatible with BE/O2 LLU line cards) A conexant based router will almost always provide the highest sync rate, but unfortunately , the netgear branded ones are not as resilient in dealing with some types of noise , even when used on a compatible adsl service,


Get yourself a DG834/ (G) V4 the important bit is the bit in bold, as that is the only DG834 Version that has the broadcom BCM6348 V0.7 chip

Or if you are feeling flush go for the Billion 7800 (n)
Both are tweakable, the Netgear tweaks will survive re-boots if you flash with the DGTeam F/W

Forgot to add some of the later DG834 GT 's where also broadcom, but finding a new one now can be difficult and if you do you could end up paying over the odds for it,( the billion would be a better choice,) unless you managed to find a S/H one on Flea bay, but buyer beware on S/H goods

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Forgot to add some of the later DG834 GT 's were also broadcom,

ALL of the GT's were; SOME applies only to 834G's

Get a new 834GT on eBay for about £20 or even a Sky-locked one which is easily unlockable. Trouble with buying a 834G on eBay is that sellers rarely know or advertise their versions.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

... or even a Sky-locked one which is easily unlockable.

[cough] [splutter]

It was the Sky DG934G (a locked DG834v3) that I had my mishap with , not the DG834GT. That is harder to unlock, but not impossible.

I forgive you then .