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Hi, I am at my wits end with Orange.
I have foolishly entered into another contract with them after requesting my MAC code and am now paying for it big time.
I was very nicely offered a regrade on my line to get better line speeds (as I was only getting about 2mbps - oh what I would give for 2mbps now !). I was told this would take 10 days. I waited and watched my connection drop, speeds go down, speeds go up a little and...hey presto the overall experience wasn't great but, as it was part of the regrade process, I thought I had better stick with it. My ip profile also went up and down all over the place.
The day my regrade was completed (yesterday) lo and behold, I suddenly started connecting at 10mbps with an ip profile and download speed to match. It did drop out every hour or so however.
Last night everything went nuts and I got a download speed of 0.22mbps and an ip profile to of 0.25mbps and this hasn't changed (with a suitably hysterical noise margin in the mid 20's). After a rather frustrating exchange with Orange I am now being told that there will be another 10 days stabilisation period and there is nothing they can do (and in fact, the regrade process 10 days is separate to the stabilisation period).
Am I having my leg pulled here ? Are the two separate ? Am I now waiting another 10 days for things to get better ? Has a rat chewed through a wire at my local exchange (attn 41db so it isn't a million miles away) ? Should I consider suicide ?
Many thanks,
Bill
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At 41dB attenuation a connection speed of 8Meg is possible, but 6 to 7 most likely.
What are all the figures from the modem? Particularly the upstream, as if thats more than 448Kbps, then the IP profile should update in real time.
Were your old speeds 2272 down and 288Kbps up by any chance? i.e. on an old fixed speed 2 Mbps service.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hi, thanks for your response. Here are the stats from my router
data rate information:
stream type actual data rate
Upstream 440 (Kbps.)
Downstream 283 (Kbps.)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 17.5 dB 22.3 dB
Line Attenuation 22.6 dB 40.0 dB
indicator name near end indicator far end indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Prior to regrade the connection speeds were variable but I seem to remember speeds normally around the 5mb and 196kbps mark (with rarely speeds over 3mb).
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi,
I have seen this a number of times where a line is converted to 21CN and a formerly stable line becomes unusable and unreliable - resulting in the IP profile bing lowered to the point of being useless, as you describe.
Assuming the line is noise-free (you can use callinbox to test this - see other posts) then if possible, check how stable the line is using only the test socket and no internal BT wiring. If you need a phone, plug into the filter in the test socket - avoid using extension leads.
At this stage you're looking for stability - rather than speed. If the line is stable like this and you need the extensions connecting, use an ADSL faceplate to filter all the extension wiring and retest. If the line remains stable - the speed will eventually return to at least the speed you had at first.
If the router needs to be away from the test socket, let me know...
Good luck!
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AHA !!!
I take it this is too much line noise ?
http://www.qfpost.com/file/d?g=6THRhp0JW
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Orange are now telling me that they have run a line test and that there is no problem with the line to my socket or the internal wiring. They can escalate but will stiff me for £105 if there is still no fault on the line. By the way, that soundfile that I uploaded was with the mute button on.
Any thoughts ?
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Okay so looks like 20CN to 21CN
On 21CN which tries to use ADSL2+ if you had a variable line connection before, then it will be worse.
Restart the modem once, and get the same stats as soon as you can. Modems tend to settle on the lowest speed, and only recover if YOU restart them.
Do you have a master socket, that comes apart like in the picture http://www.thinkbroadband.com/images/faq/faceplates/...
If yes, try the modem in the test socket, and post the stats. The IP Profile may take a short while to improve, so just the stats are the important part.
If that socket is better then read http://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/sections/radsl.htm...
In terms of escalating, if the problem is your wiring then yes Openreach will charge to fix it. If the noise is not present when using the test socket, then suggestion is that it is your wiring.
if the noise is present at the test socket, and all other phone sockets DONT work and you DO NOT have any filters or ADSL modem plugged in, then report a noisy line to your voice line rental provider, and DO NOT mention broadband, and when engineer arrives unplug all the broadband kit to show the noise is still present.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hi - thanks for thrying that - there is some noise - but quite quiet - ideally there should be none - of course. If that's typical of how it normally is, I would go with testing at the test socket as previous,y described and see if it is stable there.
At least now you can keep the recording for future ref and see if it deteriorates or improves.
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Ok many thanks....I have just bought a corded phone and I will test tonight. I have to say, I really appreciate the help !!
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Is that with or w/out the router connected? And from test socket?
If you have any noise with router disconnected you should report it as voice fault w/out mentioning BB.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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Hi,
Just the phone directly into the test socket.
Thanks,
Bill
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Ok....here is the line test with a hard wired new phone....doesn't sound to be a lot going on....I am guessing this is ok then ?
http://www.qfpost.com/file/d?g=jkAWAcXX3
At which point....unfortunately I am back to square one. My router stats are still the same as this morning.
Any thoughts ?
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Hi, that's not got much noise at all - very quiet.
At this stage we're looking to see if the line is more STABLE - not dropping out etc, the profile will restrict the speed until it is stable or reset. Need to use the test socket long enough to see if line is staying connected much better than before. If so, internal wiring isues can then be addressed...
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Ok thanks....downstream sync speed sits on 283kbps permanently whilst the upstream fluctuates between 90 and 440kbps between resets (not that I have initiated !). Currently:
data rate information:
stream type actual data rate
Upstream 155 (Kbps.)
Downstream 283 (Kbps.)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 3.5 dB 18.9 dB
Line Attenuation 23.9 dB 40.5 dB
Would I be right in thinking that the low SNR upstream is what is causing all these resets ? Will the DLM eventually stop trying to play around with the upstream and concentrate on the downstream and start to slowly lower the SNR to around the 6db mark and up the downstream connection speed ?
Thanks,
Bill
oooh now on:
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 5.4 dB 20.0 dB
Line Attenuation 23.9 dB 40.5 dB
with the same connection speed...my upstream SNR seems to leaping around.
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It just reset a couple of times and now I've got this...
data rate information:
stream type actual data rate
Upstream 114 (Kbps.)
Downstream 283 (Kbps.)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 6.8 dB 13.4 dB
Line Attenuation 22.9 dB 40.5 dB
Is this sort of rapid and large fluctuation really normal under DLM ?
Thanks,
Bill
Hehe...I suppose I am just wary of getting to the end of the DLM period and still finding the same problems.
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Hi,
Assuming this is on the test sock with your wiring all disconnected then there is most likely a bad joint (corroded / wet / etc) externally causing the problem.
It could be RFI (interferance) - but unless you can see if neighbours have the same issue since you started seeing the problem, that's harder to pin down.
Realistically you need to persevere with Orange to get them to accept there is a line fault and ignore the regrade to avoid confusing them and the OR engineer. Give them a nice simple low sync speed problem to resolve - they should see your line as being much faster in the past and go looking outside in the various junction boxes to find the issue.
Good luck with them - get the coffee and biscuits ready...
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Yep.....gotchya...so I need to wait until the end of the DLM period and then just whinge politely at them about a low sync speed. This will then send them through the usual routine of - reset to factory default - reset IE (love that one for low sync speeds !) - test socket etc but, at the back end of this they will eventually capitulate and fire up Openreach ?
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Hi - Unless they've told you to wait any longer, I would start poking them ASAP and try to get past first level support if they don't play ball.
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First line support have told me they cannot register a fault until the DLM period is over (very politely as is often the way with overseas call centres). That will be on the 14th so I am guessing next Monday will be the first time I am going to be able to do anything.
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Hmmm...well.....5 days into DLM and my ip profile is stuck at 0.25mbps downstream and 0.83mbps upstream. My connection is stuck 283kbps downstream with a 20db SNR. My upstream fluctuates from 96kbps to 440kbps and then every connection in between - the SNR fluctuates between 13db to about 3db and then every occasionally 6000db. My router keeps rebooting several times an hour (although occasionally it is ok for a few hours). Is this normal behaviour for DLM ? (It is getting pretty frustrating as I am without a usable connection and have been for over two weeks now).
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi, Do you really mean your router is REBOOTING? - or just re-syncing?? If the router is rebooting that may be a different problem and could cause the DLM to drop the line speed. Have you tried a different router to see if the connection is more stable (not faster at this stage due to the DLM)
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Yep...sorry....meant re-synching not rebooting. Should I still try another router ?
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Not unless you think it's faulty - all indications point to a poor connection or joint on tyour PSTN line...
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Yeah...this is starting to look very much like a line issue to me. Ah well, I am just going to spend the rest of this week with candles and tins of baked beans and pretend that I am back in the mid 70's and then start shouting at Orange on Sunday (when, hopefully, the DLM period will have finished). Thanks.
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Hmmm...not so sure about the line problem anymore. The router is no longer resynching and has been stable at 288kbps downstream and 440kbps upstream for the past couple of days. The SNR is also stable at 43db downstream and 29db upstream. The ip profile is still rock solid at 0.25mb downstream and 0.83mb upstream. I am also not getting a 3am resync (which I understand is a standard for DLM).
What do you think ? Has the DLM finished early and left me with this shocking but very stable state of affairs which I will have for evermore ? Is it still possible that there is still a line fault or is it a sticky BRAS profile. I suppose I just want to be able to start shouting at Orange at the earliest (I've been without a usable service for about 3 weeks now) but don't want to spend a hour going through the usual usual just to be told (after the elimination of IE, factory defaults etc) that "your line is still undergoing training so we cannot log a fault".
Happy to do it if you think it is worthwhile.....
Many thanks once again,
Bill
Edited by deleted (Fri 11-May-12 19:09:18)
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data rate information:
stream type actual data rate
Upstream 155 (Kbps.)
Downstream 283 (Kbps.)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 3.5 dB 18.9 dB
Line Attenuation 23.9 dB 40.5 dB
The 21CN does now support 3.0dB Target Noise Margin profiles, but you should be getting much faster on your connection.
Does your Router report the Output Power anywhere?
That will indicate whether the line is noisy if it is around 20dB, due to the MSAN trying to push as much power through it as possible (To counteract the interference).
If the Output Power is low, there must be some sort of capping/ banding going on (See below).
I suspect that you could be on the: 160 - 288 banded profile.
You are constantly syncing at 283Kbps indicating you probably are on the Banded Profile. Also: "The router is no longer resynching and has been stable at 288kbps downstream and 440kbps upstream for the past couple of days.".
That is at the top of the range of the profile you could be on.
Is there any chance you can check with Orange to see if this is true?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed: 24276 kbps 1211 kbps
Line Attenuation: 16.5 db 6.4 db
Noise Margin: 1.1 db 6.2 db Edited by chris6273 (Fri 11-May-12 22:02:07)
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Here are my stats...these have been solid now for about 3 days or so (along with my ip profile)
data rate information:
stream type actual data rate
Upstream 440 (Kbps.)
Downstream 288 (Kbps.)
defect/failure indication:
operation data upstream downstream
Noise Margin 29.1 dB 42.9 dB
Line Attenuation 22.5 dB 40.0 dB
Near end output power is 12.7db and far end is 0db
Have just spoken to Orange and they have told me that the training period is still running and that, by Monday the 10 days will be up and all my problems will be resolved.....I suspect however that this is a load of old cobblers.
Thanks,
Bill
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I doubt the problem will suddenly be resolved come Monday.
If I was you on Monday, I would get a hold of Orange (If the problem isn't sorted) and discuss the possibility of you being on a Banded Profile and to get it removed.
If you leave it to the DLM to sort, it isn't something which is over and done within a few hours - It can take days/weeks/sometimes months for the DLM to see your line stable enough to lift the banding profile.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed: 24276 kbps 1211 kbps
Line Attenuation: 16.5 db 6.4 db
Noise Margin: 1.1 db 6.2 db |
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Noise Margin 29.1 dB 42.9 dB Very suspicious! Never seen them so high.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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When was the last time you reconnected? As XRaySpeX says, those noise margins are extremely high.
Have a read of what the 10-day period does.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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I restart the router daily in the vain hope that something changes....nothing. Thanks for the link on the 10 day period...reading that it looks a bit like my line will be performing fine as far as BT are concerned. I will have an IP profile of 0.25mbps, I have connected at 288kbps and my actual download speed is just a fraction lower at 0.21mbps...it all looks good as far as the FTR is concerned as I now have an incredibly stable connection operating at 0.25mbps (searches for axe)
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That's the stupidity of the sacrosanct 10-day no fault reporting allowed.
You clearly have a line fault, which will have to be fixed. Then because of that a new 10-day period will be needed to reset the MSR/FTR to valid values. So you are simply being left with a useless service because "Rule-book says no".
Madness  .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Yep....that is pretty much what I thought. Thanks for the sympathy, I will update you on the outcomes when I get hold of Orange on Monday.
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Right...well....yesterday I called and was told that...at midnight....everything would be sorted and that I wouldn't need to call again. Well...guess what ? My ip profile has gone up....to a blistering 0.5mbps. So....back on to Orange tonight.... another line test which has pointed to a problem "in the house" - no extensions, in the test socket for the last 2 weeks and have changed routers and filters twice to check so this should be fun. The fault is now going to the "back office" team who will call me on Thursday night as they will be able to run more tests.
I wait....with baited breath.
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Hello nhsmonkey,
I am sorry to see the experience you are having. I will get your issue escalated if you Private Message your details to me including landline broadband number and a mobile contact number. Someone will call you back.
Regards
Gavin
Orange Home Broadband
'Here to help'
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The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
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Hehe...right...well, earlier today Orange called my wife (they were supposed to call after 6pm). She asked them to call after 6pm (they haven't yet) and, lo and behold, I am now getting an ip profile of 6.13mbps downstream and 0.9mbps upstream. My sync is stable at 6944 down and 0.903 up and....DEEEEEEEPPP JJJOOOOYYY...I am getting speeds to match (about 6mbps). Clearly something has happened somewhere today (so much for my internal house problem !?!?!). Anyway, I am waiting for them to call again and see if this is the best I am gonna get as my SNR is 8.9 upstream and 15.3 downstream (attn 22.8 up and 40.5 down). With my attenuation do you think this is the best I am going to get as my SNR still seems very high ? (if so...so be it but it is not exactly the blistering ADSL2 speeds that the rep was quoting me the day before this debacle of regrading nightmare began). Gavin, thanks for the post...lets see what becomes of it first...everything may be fine and I may be trying to now squeeze blood out of stone but I just want an opinion at this stage.....
Thanks,
Bill
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