Constant Disconnects

Hello

I just had my post office broadband installed on a new line last Friday and ever since I've had non stop disconnects.

Below are the line stats, can someone tell me if there is anything there that would point to the issue?

I have seen posts that the supplied Zyxel Modem doesn't cope well with long lines

Thanks

noise margin upstream: 18.0 db
output power downstream: 19.5 dbm
attenuation upstream: 29.5 db

noise margin downstream: 6.0 db
output power upstream: 12.5 dbm
attenuation downstream: 61.0 db


Speed:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/2082870207.png

This is the exchange I'm on

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SDSLNFL

Thanks in advance

This was posted in the post office broadband but someone suggested I repost it in the general area

In reply to a post by brandscill:

noise margin upstream: 18.0 db
output power downstream: 19.5 dbm
attenuation upstream: 29.5 db

noise margin downstream: 6.0 db
output power upstream: 12.5 dbm
attenuation downstream: 61.0 db

Are out of context and therefore useless w/out the corresponding connection speeds from the router.

Speedtests are only of secondary significance.

Apologies

Upstream Speed: 448 kbps
Downstream Speed: 5184 kbps

This is the model of the router supplied by the post office

ftp://ftp.zyxel.com/AMG1202-T10A/AMG1202-T10A_001.pdf

The BT wholesale number checker says the following

For Telephone Number 01403****** on Exchange SLINFOLD

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 1Mbps. However due to the length of your line the 1Mbps service may require an engineer visit who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.


Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 1Mbps and 3.5Mbps.

The actual stable line speed supportable will be determined during the first 10 days of use. This speed may change over time, to ensure line stability is maintained.

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jul-12 15:09:24)

That is surprisingly fast but otherwise OK.

Now run http://www.speedtester.bt.com/ & post results.

Here you go

Download speedachieved during the test was - 1.81 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.4 Mbps-2 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5.18 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 2 Mbps

Try plugging into test socket and see if that improves things. Post the same stats as before.

Have you removed ring wire? See http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

That is a very high sync rate for what, if the router is reporting correctly, is a very long line. Did you try in the NTE test jack, and if the same there, do you have a nieghbour whose router you could borrow, just to see if sync is stable with that ?

Router is reporting it correctly as it's confirmed by BT Speedtester.

But is it possible that router is negotiating it wrongly?

Pass.

I wonder if, since it's a new install, the 'constant disconnects' are DLM doing it's thang ?
That said, if it were, wouldn't the 6db snr have changed ??

Tried it and it's all the same

The socket is brand new with no extensions.

Sadly no neighbours around here only an old care home. Really am flummoxed as to the problem. Short of a few people saying online that the Zyxel router we have doesn't play nice with long lines I can't think of much else to try.

Luckily had a mini breakthrough with the Post Office who are sending a guy out Tuesday coming to take a look at everything. Hopefully he will try a few things then come and see it hasn't made any difference and perhaps suggest it's the fail router?

Luckily had a mini breakthrough with the Post Office who are sending a guy out Tuesday coming to take a look at everything. Hopefully he will try a few things then come and see it hasn't made any difference and perhaps suggest it's the fail router?

That would be an Openreach engineer on an LLU SFI visit, I rather hope they don't say it's the router, because you'll have a fair chance that the Post Office will pass the visit charges on to you....

How could they justify passing the charges onto me when the router is supplied by them and they phoned me saying we need to send someone out to you.

The way it happened was I phoned 1st line support who said this is happening too often let me raise this to second who will do further tests on the line and decide where to go next. They phoned me up and said nothing of any tests they did just said we need to send someone out to you.

Why would it be an LLU SFI visit? It's a BT Wholesale product as there are no LLU providers in my exchange

Solution is

1. Wait for DLM to get annoyed with modem dropping connection and raise target noise margin (this possibility runs for as long as you have ADSL, not just the first 10 days)
2. Get ISP to request a manual target noise margin change, 12dB is probably what you need to push sync down from 5Meg to around 2.5Meg

The DLM systems DO NOT force disconnects, the disconnects are just the result of the modem decideing the noise margin is too low for it to work, and the exact point this happens varies from router to router and the different firmware versions even.

An engineer attending will not have the expertise in this area I expect. Post Office while run by BT Wholesale call centre staff is not renowned for the most experienced staff.

Why would it be an LLU SFI visit? It's a BT Wholesale product as there are no LLU providers in my exchange

That's what an Openreach 'broadband fault' visit is called.

An engineer attending will not have the expertise in this area I expect.

Have no experience in dealing with 'constant disconnections' ?? Odd statement.

In terms of a line performing beyond expectations due to a CPE that is over utilising the available bits per bin then I would be seriously shocked.

If their test kit connects at a reasonable speed,then end of story, as the issue is a end-user wiring/CPE issue, and or CP provided CPE issue, which is not something openreach will want to touch.

The flowchats say dispatch engineer, who will probably proceed to try and improve line speeds even more, and not slow the connection down.

BT Wholesale is treated to the same level of service as TalkTalk and Sky.

Be sure that the ISP does not pass on the charges.

I just phoned to speak with them and they said as long as I've done all the 1st line support checks as requested which I had done then they're shouldn't be a need for a charge. He said if the fault is with my equipment then a £125 charge applies. I laughed and said by my equipment you mean your equipment you supplied which isn't working?

Just to add they send 2 routers by mistake and I've tried both and the same results

Here are the same tests plugged into test socket

noise margin upstream: 17.0 db
output power downstream: 19.5 dbm
attenuation upstream: 29.5 db

noise margin downstream: 6.0 db
output power upstream: 12.5 dbm
attenuation downstream: 61.0 db

Upstream Speed: 448 kbps
Downstream Speed: 5024 kbps

The BT Speedtester keeps failing

Here is an image of the BT Master socket (the only socket) with faceplate removed. No ring wire I don't think as it's brand new

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8495/img0355be.jpg

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jul-12 21:20:02)

If their test kit connects at a reasonable speed,then end of story, as the issue is a end-user wiring/CPE issue, and or CP provided CPE issue, which is not something openreach will want to touch.

If the disconnects are apparent on the test kit, then it will fault-able. Wiring issue, yep they can fix them too. If it's all OK on the end of said wiring, comparative tests can be made, etc,etc.

Well, I hooked it up to the test socket overnight and when I awoke the connection up time was 30 minutes. So it certainly had several drops overnight.

No ring wire because no extensions

Yes if they can see the disconnects they will try and figure it out, but have you not noticed the exceptionally high sync the modem is trying...looks so much more like firmware is a bit foobar for long lines with that router, than any actual noise fault.

That exceptionally high sync can only be put to bed by using a diff router.

In reply to a post by brandscill:

So it certainly had several drops overnight.

What's router logs say about those discons?

but have you not noticed the exceptionally high sync the modem is trying...

Yes I had, hence my first reply to the OP. Could always be duff equipment in the exchange.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by brandscill:

So it certainly had several drops overnight.

What's router logs say about those discons?

7/26/2012 19:6:23> Configuration Change!
7/26/2012 19:6:23> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c
7/26/2012 19:6:24> Last errorlog repeat 2 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:29> Firewall: Filter no port UDP packet!
7/26/2012 19:6:31> Last errorlog repeat 5 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:31> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c
7/26/2012 19:6:32> Last errorlog repeat 5 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:41> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c
7/26/2012 19:6:41> Firewall: Filter no port UDP packet!
7/26/2012 19:6:41> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c
7/26/2012 19:6:41> Last errorlog repeat 1 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:42> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c
7/26/2012 19:6:43> Last errorlog repeat 5 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:47> Firewall: Filter no port UDP packet!
7/26/2012 19:6:49> Last errorlog repeat 1 Times
7/26/2012 19:6:51> netMakeChannDial: err=-3000 rn_p=8074451c


Those aren't from last night I know, this things keeps about 8 mins of logs if that. Useless!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

That exceptionally high sync can only be put to bed by using a diff router.

In that case, will I be charged for the BT guy coming out? I did everything first line tech support asked, changed micro filter, tried another Zyxel router (they sent two for some unknown reason) and I also tried the test socket. All have countless drops

The Openreach engineer doesn't raise charges, just fills in a report which goes back to the ISP, it's them that decides where and what to do with any charges.

Things to check the engineer does;

Runs an end to end pair quality test, be nosy look over their shoulder, show interest and ask them to explain the results.
No more than 10 ohms difference in the legs, then closer the better.
Nice high AC balance at least 55db, but the higher the better.
Have them watch the error counter on their JDSU/Efo tester whilst using the phone at the same time. Should be little or none.
Look and see what thier kit syncs at, ask them what the average sync rate for the area might be.
Are there any better E-sides that your line might be on ?
They could ring up Wholesale and have them do comparative testing with both your and their kit sync, maybe ask what the RRTC history looks like.

Who knows, maybe it's a 'tickle' and they will just know the cause and sort it.

If it is your router, then you are back to plan A, arguing with the ISP that you did all the checks required by them, and were using kit recently supplied by them ....

I would ask all that but I won't be the one waiting in. It's my birthday and my girlfriend has taken the day of work to prepare some surprise whilst visiting me. She said as she'd need to be home in the morning she doesn't mind waiting in on my behalf.

I'll write down some things for her to ask and hopefully she will but she is the least technically minded person you'll come across really :/

Guess it's just a wait and see game

So far tonight we've had some decent uptime though!

Link Status: Up
WAN IP Address: *.*.*.*
Upstream Speed: 448 kbps
Downstream Speed: 5312 kbps
Node-Link Status TxPkts RxPkts Errors Tx B/s Rx B/s UpTime
1-PPPoA Up 5231093 8930905 0 26136 36568 2:33:23

DSL Line Status Diagnostics


relative capacity occupation: 62%
noise margin upstream: 17.0 db
output power downstream: 19.5 dbm
attenuation upstream: 29.5 db
carrier load: number of bits per symbol(tone)
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 04 66 77 77 88 77 77 77 76 65 55 42 20
tone 32- 63: 00 44 67 99 ab bc dd ad dd dd ee dd dd ed dd dc
tone 64- 95: 0c dc cd dd cd dc a9 bb cb bb cb bb cb cb cc bb
tone 96-127: bc cb ba aa ba bb ba ab ab aa aa ba aa aa aa 88
tone 128-159: 77 89 99 99 99 99 99 98 49 98 78 86 45 36 66 76
tone 160-191: 52 46 52 74 75 74 62 56 76 65 56 65 26 46 66 66
tone 192-223: 56 35 44 22 22 22 22 22 33 20 32 33 30 32 32 22
tone 224-255: 33 00 23 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
relative capacity occupation: 113%
noise margin downstream: 3.5 db
output power upstream: 12.5 dbm
attenuation downstream: 61.0 db
carrier load: number of bits per symbol(tone)
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 04 66 77 77 88 77 77 77 76 65 55 42 20
tone 32- 63: 00 44 67 99 ab bc dd ad dd dd ee dd dd ed dd dc
tone 64- 95: 0c dc cd dd cd dc a9 bb cb bb cb bb cb cb cc bb
tone 96-127: bc cb ba aa ba bb ba ab ab aa aa ba aa aa aa 88
tone 128-159: 77 89 99 99 99 99 99 98 49 98 78 86 45 36 66 76
tone 160-191: 52 46 52 74 75 74 62 56 76 65 56 65 26 46 66 66
tone 192-223: 56 35 44 22 22 22 22 22 33 20 32 33 30 32 32 22
tone 224-255: 33 00 23 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00


I'm hoping that maybe over the next couple of days things really begin to improve and perhaps I can cancel the visit!

Didn't last long, just resynced

Have you tried connecting a corded phone into the TEST socket and dialling 17070 then taking option 2 and listening for noise, it's called the quiet line test?

If there is no problem with the connection you shouldn't hear anything other than a voice occasionally saying "quiet line test".

Don't have a corded phone atm, will try and get one over the weekend

If noise was that constant to be audible, chances are the modem would see it and sync to a lower speed, than the 5Meg at 60dB attenuation.

Has the original poster looked for any firmware versions for the zyxel router, as it is not uncommon for different firmware versions to change how the modem behaves

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If noise was that constant to be audible, chances are the modem would see it and sync to a lower speed, than the 5Meg at 60dB attenuation.

Has the original poster looked for any firmware versions for the zyxel router, as it is not uncommon for different firmware versions to change how the modem behaves

I haven't managed to find any firmware for the device. I browsed the zyxel firmware FTP and there was 1 older version by the looks of it but no direct support pages for the device with useful information

The improvements I've seen over the past few days have vanished. Disconnected 5 times in the space of an hour

As far as I know, the Post Office are the only ISP that supply the Zyxel router. Like the supplier, I found it a pain in the backside. You will not be able to update the firmware as it is locked down with a Post Office custom version, which may now be compounded by the PO switching supplier to TalkTalk. I found the only answer was to purchase a decent router of my own.

May I ask which router you purchased? How easy was it to set up and were post office happy to provide settings?

Phoned them this morning, chatted to a chap about how I think it's down to the router not coping with the line length and mentioned things mentioned by you guys on here. He went to chat with his manager and they agreed it would be best to cancel the tech visit, and send out a thompson router to try first to rule out router faults all together.

Though I run a Billion 7800N now, when with the Post Office I went for one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TD-W8960N-300MBPS-Wi... It worked very well and as you see it is very well regarded at a decent price.
The PO will happily give you the Broadband connection username and password, which is a little different to the standard one you use to access your account.
The userneme is in the format [email protected] though the number is probably variable, but not to worry, Customer Services will give them to you. The username and Password are all you require to set up most routers as they usually auto-config all other settings.

Thanks for this.

At the moment I have a Thompson router being sent out to me, which according to another thread on this forum fixed the problem for somebody describing the same issues I had relating to long lines.

If it doesn't then I may invest in the router/modem you linked

I had the same problem with the post office zyxel router disconnecting last week after i migrated to them. It seems to happen mainly late at night so it didn't apear to be line training. Anyway i reported the issue to support and they tested the line and suggested all the usual things to diagnose. In the end i got the username/password and plugged in my netgear router instead (dg834pn) and i've not had a single disconnect since that i haven't done myself.
So i feel inclined to think it's problems with this router..or perhaps the firmware.

Got my thompson Technicolour router delivered from the post office today. No drop outs yet so lets hope it stays that way

Router http://www.technicolor.com/en/hi/digital-home/mediaa...

Edited by deleted (Wed 01-Aug-12 23:50:08)

Fingers crossed.

In reply to a post by brandscill:

Got my thompson Technicolour router delivered

I was so disappointed when my one arrived. My first thought:

"It's white!"

& what are the stats on that?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

& what are the stats on that?

http://192.168.1.254/cgi/b/dsl/dt/?ce=1&be=0&l0=1&l1=0

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

& what are the stats on that?

Will post these when I get in from work

In reply to a post by camieabz:

In reply to a post by brandscill:

Got my thompson Technicolour router delivered

I was so disappointed when my one arrived. My first thought:

"It's white!"

The women on the phone was like so now you've got your thompson router. I told her it wasn't thompson it was technicolour and she didn't even know they had them

The women on the phone was like so now you've got your thompson router. I told her it wasn't thompson it was technicolour and she didn't even know they had them


Technicolor is new name for thomson products.

In reply to a post by flippery:

The women on the phone was like so now you've got your thompson router. I told her it wasn't thompson it was technicolour and she didn't even know they had them

Technicolor is new name for thomson products.


Really? Couldn't even find a reference to Thompson on the site haha.

There's no "p" in Thomson.

There's no "p" in Thomson.

Are you saying that someone has taken the p?

It is looking that way

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

There's no "p" in Thomson.

Sorry

The stats as asked for

Uptime: 0 days, 10:56:37

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4.320

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 20,91 / 235,79

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,3 / 19,4

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 28,0 / 52,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 19,0 / 9,5

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / TSTC

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / -

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / -

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / -

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 866 / -

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 50 / 23.599

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 38 / 97

HEC Errors (Up/Down): -8 / 97 / 613

Still a fair few errors on there, I'd be especially bothered by the HEC errors.

That's more like it! Old router was reporting too high attn.

Fair no. of errors. Is that from test socket?

Nope, just the master socket

Getting better speeds too!

http://www.speedtest.net/result/2098015918.png

New results from BT Speedtester

Download speedachieved during the test was - 2.59 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.6 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :3.94 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 3 Mbps

Edited by deleted (Thu 02-Aug-12 22:13:27)