Is this a fair assessment please?

I am writing a piece for our village newsletter and would appreciate feedback on accuracy and fairness of the following:-

"Market 1 means that the �Local Loop� has not been unbundled or LLU�d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business but you will pay a premium price for that service and if that premium is not passed on to your bill then your ISP is swallowing it to achieve greater market share. One notable ISP exception who will not take this loss but will pass it on to you is O2 who want £30pm incl. line rental if you are an O2 mobile customer and £35pm if you are not. Note this is for a theoretical max. ADSL speed of 8Mbps making the TV ads an irrelvant joke.
To conclude, not only are rural communities likely to have to wait up until 2020 to get on the superfast broadband highway but in the meantime they are being left languishing on the �Slow and Expensive �B� Roads."

TIA

Ignoring the bold.. a little unfair to finger O2, as Sky do the same and Talk Talk have even stopped offering out of network customers services at all!

Matt

Matt fair point it may not have come over but I actually respect O2 for their position

It reads to me as though you are particularly criticising them. As you apparently didn't intend that, I suggest some re-wording is indicated.

Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.

The one ISP I know of giving a discount on Market 2 and 3 is Plusnet, as they are charged less.

Orange, which is in fact just a sales force for a direct BT Wholesale service, charge a premium on all the exchanges they themselves had not LLU'ed at the time they ceased to be a real ISP and became a vISP. That includes some Market 2 and 3 exchanges, as well as the obvious Market 1.
_{Edit - Typo spelling mistake in "criticising".}

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 14-Oct-12 16:38:43)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It reads to me as though you are particularly critcising them. As you apparently didn't intend that, I suggest some re-wording is indicated.

I have had a go at changing this...

Market 1 means that the �Local Loop� has not been unbundled or LLU�d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business but you will pay a premium price for that service and if that premium is not passed on to your bill then your ISP is swallowing it to achieve greater market share. O2 is one of the ISP�s who, quite understandably, will not take this loss but will pass it on to you. They will charge you £30pm incl. line rental if you are an O2 mobile customer and £35pm if you are not. Note this is for a theoretical max. ADSL speed of 8Mbps making the TV ads an irrelvant joke. It also should be noted that some ISPs have even stopped offering �out of network� customers services entirely.
To conclude, not only are rural communities likely to have to wait up until 2020 to get on the �Superfast Broadband Highway� but in the meantime they are being left languishing on the �Slow and Expensive �B� Roads�.


Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.

The above is food for thought - Thanks
Could your point me to some further reading on this as I clearly don't know enough about this.

Interesting about Orange too

The one ISP I know of giving a discount on Market 2 and 3 is Plusnet, as they are charged less.

Orange, which is in fact just a sales force for a direct BT Wholesale service, charge a premium on all the exchanges they themselves had not LLU'ed at the time they ceased to be a real ISP and became a vISP. That includes some Market 2 and 3 exchanges, as well as the obvious Market 1.

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

"Market 1 means that the �Local Loop� has not been unbundled or LLU�d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business....

That looks to be wrong way round to me. Surely you mean the BT Wholesale-based ones?

I think you will find very few of your readers will know that BT Retail broadband is not what you are talking about. There's quite a bit of jargon there jumbled up together, impenetrable to many. On proof-reading what I just written, I'm not sure I'm even reading your draft correctly myself.

Have you read my page on What is LLU? There's a lot more than you need in there, but it might help you explain more clearly. It might even be better not to use the acronym LLU and just say that only BT Wholesale have broadband equipment there. That Sky, O2 and TalkTalk do not, so any service they offer is based on the BT Wholesale service like all others, which is why it is more expensive than where they have their own equipment.

There's also a very important point you don't mention. That is whether or not the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled. If it is, then the speeds available are not slow.

Thanks for the 'What is LLU' link I'm off to read it.

Regarding whether the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled I doubt it. The exchange is WWCHIS can you tell me how I could find out about what is and is not in our exchange if it isn't too much to ask please?

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.

The above is food for thought - Thanks
Could your point me to some further reading on this as I clearly don't know enough about this.

No reading, but just think about it.

Market 2 or 3 by definition means there are LLU suppliers or Virgin Media cable. Let's ignore the VM for the purpose of this discussion and assume at least one LLU supplier.

BT Wholesale is present in all exchanges, with BT Broadband, Plusnet, (special case already mentioned), Zen, IDNet, all Entanet resellers, vivaciti, xilo/uno, ADSL24, ukfsn, Claranet, Timico/Newnet, etc. etc. Over a hundred ISPs offering BT Wholesale based services. All the Market 2 and Market 3 customers of all those ISPs, (PN and Orange excepted), are paying the same as Market 1 users.

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

Regarding whether the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled I doubt it. The exchange is WWCHIS can you tell me how I could find out about what is and is not in our exchange if it isn't too much to ask please?

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWCHIS

21CN WBC status is shown as Not available. That is the BT Wholesale "up to 24Mbps" service that matches LLU for speed.

Although your exchange doesn't have it at the moment, somewhere there is a list of those which are in a current expansion of it. I'm afraid I don't have a link for the list.

While market 1 may strictly mean no LLU, with TalkTalk pushing to 93% of the country until Ofcom does a review on the market definitions there are a good number of exchanges that are mis-classified.

I'd suggest better to not mention market 1 at all, and just refer to your small exchange if it is that, and that the cheapest options may not be available in the area. County Council in theory is investing (don't know your area) so things may change in three years time.

O2 Access which is their offnet product does not have a good reputation in terms of peoples experience.

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

"Market 1 means that the �Local Loop� has not been unbundled (LLU�d)"

Not strictly true. Some Market 1s have 1 or more LLU providers, particularly TT, cuz Ofcom updates classifications only infrequently.

You say 21CN is not applicable to your particular exchange. True at present, but your article reads as a general statement about Market 1. You should make it clear that it is only about your local exchange. Indeed I should forget Market 1 and just say that your exchange only has BT Wholesale BB kit present. Therefore the rest of it.

The problem with your exchange and many like it is BT and other broadband suppliers �at this present time� do not think it viable to invest in broadband upgrades there due to the small number of customers.

709 residential premises
31 non-residential premises.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWCHIS

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

O2 Access which is their offnet product does not have a good reputation in terms of peoples experience.

Network performance O2 Access got a lot better when they imposed a 20 GB usage limit, but that's largely down to the fact that it's no longer competitive and so has much fewer customers now.

I agree with most of the other posters observations

If I was a local I would also ask where you got the 2020 date for Superfast broadband from?

The Government and most councils keep quoting 2015 as the date when the majority of the UK will be 'superfast'. But 2015 is nearly here and my Market 1 20CN exchange doesn't appear to have any upgrade plan in place for 2015 or 2020...

In reply to a post by b4dger:

The Government and most councils keep quoting 2015 as the date when the majority of the UK will be 'superfast'. But 2015 is nearly here and my Market 1 20CN exchange doesn't appear to have any upgrade plan in place for 2015 or 2020...

"The majority" (i.e. over 50%) is easy enough to achieve; Openreach plan on enabling two-thirds of the UK by end 2014. Enabling the rest is the problem, due to cost and lack of ROI.

Yes it's clearly the lack of ROI that will stop the market reaching us.

The 2020 stated earlier is the year by which the Government expects complete broadband coverage (which for some current not-spots can be as little as 2Mbps) and hey we are already covered so there is already a tick in our box

Devon and Somerset have a published goal to achieve 85% through their DCMS/BDUK intervention spending which is starting from the low 50's percentile unlike less rural areas which might start from 62-65% fulfilled out to 85% by intervention spend.

So little villages like ours are pretty certain to fall in the final 10-15% however you look at it and that gap is to be fulfiilled between 2015 and 2020 hence the reference to 2020.

There have been lots of previous very helpful replies and indeed SamKnows links to my request and I will indeed remove references to Market X and make it simply about our exchange.

I have learned a lot through your replies and references and I would like to convey my thanks to all for taking time out to help.

A Bit of A Twist in the Tail (if you can spare a moment to read more]

I would like to rectify something I responded to earlier about 21CN I think that was the acronym where I (and for that matter SamKnows) did not really know about this.

Please bear with me here because this just might be important for us minnows..

Connecting Somerset involved fibre enabling schools, public services like surgeries et al. Now it turns out that this is 21CN fibre bespoke for the public services, fibre laid by Openreach under a 7 year contract for SouthWest One.

We have discovered that fibre has been laid to a primary school in our village 10Mbps (school is 200 mtrs from my house) and to an Academy school about 3Kms away 100Mbps. Our local primary school fibre comes from WWCHIS - Openreach were spotted laying it and when asked replied it was for the school.

We sort of dismissed this fibre as a possible lever to get FTTC to our villages because despite our MP writing to the Chief Executive of Somerset County Council they Somerset are not going to renegotiate the contract and even references to school fibre being utilised to solve a not-spot near Winchester, Hants**. cut no ice with them. Quote "The contracts will be too complex to renegotiate" (** gleaned from news item on thinkbroadband.com !)

What we have however been told is that if BT / Openreach were to succeed in the negotiations with ConnectingDevonandSomerset for the intervention area infrastructure enablement then it would be up to BT/Openreach to decide whether to exploit their fibre infrastructure to fibre enable us by blowing more fibre through the existing fibre ducting. It turns out the only player left in the counties negotiations is BT/Openreach (Fujitsu having pulled out)

Of the 709 (IIRC) subscribers to WWCHIS we have only managed to build a database of 170 registered members who support our attempt to get FTTC. Remember we have a lot of happy subscribers who don't think they will have a need for fibre (mentioned way at the top of the post) so 170 aint bad considering that IMO

My final request for feedback is this..

Do you think we have any chance from reading the above of getting FTTC in our 4 villages by 2015?

Thank you all once again.
Jamie

Now I know its Somerset it is easier to respond as know the council plan.

Theirs is less ambitious at 85% at 25 Mbps and faster, the unknown is whether you are in that area and only the council can answer that. If they simply roll-over and let Openreach get on with it, they will do what is easiest for them.

Some councils have secured much higher coverage figures, which would see you connected sooner in other counties.

If you have premises getting under 2 Mbps connection speed, you should see some money spent in the area, which may see FTTC deployed with a nice side effect of very high speeds. Depends on what Openreach decice to do largely and only time will tell.

Best bet is lobbying of local councils to make sure it is your villages and not some other one that benefit.

Wow! Thanks for that Mr Saffron!

Just today I was complaining about references to the 'Final 10%' to CDS Snr Economic Advisor and got a flat response of 85% limit. i guess they think by them setting it at 85% then anything over that will be seen as a success and that will make them look good - cynical me.

Yes! too to your suggestion of lobbying them this is what we have been doing and will continue to do so enboldened by your encouragement - Thank You .

We are actively trying to enlarge our support by holding an evening event to encourage 'novice' computer and internet users to come and get some help as we are trying to enfranchise everyone who wants to be a part of the future evolution of broadband provision we also want to reach those who want to be included in this but as yet still don't have a computer 'thingy'

Thank You

excchnage WWCHIS is market 1 somersiet -- suggest you contact local authoritry to find out what is happeing re your exchnage as i would expect your exchnage to be in the internention are (not commerially viable) and thefore shoudl be covered onder bDIK funding

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

excchnage WWCHIS is market 1 somersiet -- suggest you contact local authoritry to find out what is happeing re your exchnage as i would expect your exchnage to be in the internention are (not commerially viable) and thefore shoudl be covered onder bDIK funding

Thanks we have been negotiating with our LA (Somerset County Council) since February when we looked at the possibility of a DEFRA grant bid but because DEFRA used something called LSOA (Local Super Output Areas - I think - an Office of National Statistics concept) as the demographically 'fair' area we found we had to abandon that approach because it embraced three BT Exchanges.

Since then we have continued to lobby our LA but concentrating on WWCHIS and between the lines the response doesn't look good at all for us to be included in the 'intervention area' spend clearly it's to do with 'bang for every DCMS/BDUK Buck spent'.

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

between the lines the response doesn't look good at all for us to be included in the 'intervention area' spend clearly it's to do with 'bang for every DCMS/BDUK Buck spent'.

Strictly, everywhere that isn't in BT's self-funded plan *is* in the intervention area (usually called white, but some counties use a different naming scheme). You just might not like the amount of intervention you're going to get.

In the BDUK plans, the target is (nationally) that intervention type A brings SFBB to 90%, while intervention type B ensures a minimum of 2Mbps for *everyone* else. This is the UK government's plan for 2015.

The EU has a separate plan to ensure *everyone* has SFBB by 2020. The UK government hasn't focussed on this yet - I assume because the 2014 (BT) and 2015 (BDUK) plans are all-consuming for now.

I think Suffolk is the only one where I have seen a breakdown beyond those raw figures. They too are aiming at "only" 85% for SFBB, 5% getting between 10Mbps and 24Mbps, 8% getting 5-10Mbps, and 2% getting 2-5Mbps. According to this TBB news story, there's confusion over the timescales there.

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

Connecting Somerset involved fibre enabling schools, public services like surgeries et al. Now it turns out that this is 21CN fibre bespoke for the public services, fibre laid by Openreach under a 7 year contract for SouthWest One.

Are you sure this is really "21CN" and "fibre"? BT's definition of 21CN is really about providing telephony & broadband services from MSAN's - and providing it in a widespread fashion to Joe Public.

What you are talking about sounds like a "private" fibre network for SW1, with the prime aim at connecting council-owned ventures (such as schools, libraries etc).

North Yorkshire have a similar venture known as NYNET. On their website they specifically say that they cannot provide business or residential broadband connections "under state aid legislation".

However, they *do* seem to be able to connect some community hubs, where communities have come together to provide their own internet access (the village of Darley being an example).

North Yorkshire also have EU approval of both their BDUK funds *and* are allowed to make use of EU "ERDF" funds. My reading is that the ERDF funds are specifically for providing business connectivity within the white intervention area, and I think they are allowed to use NTNET for this if BT don't have fibre themselves in an area.

What we have however been told is that if BT / Openreach were to succeed in the negotiations with ConnectingDevonandSomerset for the intervention area infrastructure enablement then it would be up to BT/Openreach to decide whether to exploit their fibre infrastructure to fibre enable us by blowing more fibre through the existing fibre ducting. It turns out the only player left in the counties negotiations is BT/Openreach (Fujitsu having pulled out)

This is true, to the extent of BT deciding how to go about hitting the 85% target they are given.

However, the approach to community-led initiatives within the other 15% is still very much down to the attitude of the council (and individual councillors).

Perhaps you should work out how to learn from NY & Darley?

My final request for feedback is this..

Do you think we have any chance from reading the above of getting FTTC in our 4 villages by 2015?

FTTC specifically - No, probably not.
Some form of SFBB? Perhaps, but it looks like you got voted to the job of turning the councillor's attitudes around.

Regarding your doubt expressed about 21CN....

Here is a quote from a reliable source...

"The BT21CN was rolled out across Somerset, through upgrades to local exchanges etc, and is the fibre network on which SomerNet then runs on"

Right.

I just found this page on SomerNet: The first dedicated fibre-optic network for schools anywhere in the Southwest, "The new network will be built on BT�s 21st Century Next Generation (21CN NGA) National fibre optic network."

There are a couple of interesting quotes:
- "All existing sites have been earmarked for either a 10mb, 100mb or 1gb connection based on current usage stats."
- "The SomerNet 21CN has been the commercially compelling reason for BT to consider further investment in Somerset. Southwest One are currently working with SCC and other partners in developing a bid to enable BT to use the new SomerNet 21CN to roll out high-speed broadband across Somerset."

Those speed options suggest that the network is being built using GEA Ethernet access products from BT Wholesale. I found this BT Wholesale page that described both fibre & copper access methods, and mentions VLAN limits "on their 21CN network"

Yes. Without following any links, the infrastructure in question is simply the extension of fibre links to the exchanges, (thus allowing WBC enablement), with customer/council-financed leased fibre spreading to the schools, hospitals, libraries and whatever. Nothing to do with FTTC as such.

It does however mean that each exchange Openreach has a lot of the basics done to roll out FTTC where Openreach wish. I expect in consultation with BT Wholesale.