Intermittant connection since 11pm ish.

Hi folks. Title says it all. is this local, regional?

Anyone know of anything up at present?

On Plusnet perhaps?

Connection doesn't stay up for more than a minute at a time.

See connection:

http://www.camieabz.co.uk/conn.png

Also, see the connection sillyness. Looks like it started around 10:50pm.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/64243c255dd...

When I got that, dialing the quiet line test stopped it. That was on O2 LLU. You're going to find an awful noise margin once it stops .

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 20-Oct-12 09:47:57)

I'm not on LLU (if that matters). What is it then?

It 'seems' to be improving:

http://www.camieabz.co.uk/conn2.png

OK here on Plusnet, but I'm a long way from you.

Had a drop last night or the night before, around midnight.

Couldn't reconnect, so gave up and went to bed. All sorted in the morning, but never found anything in the service status to indicate what the problem had been.

Plusnet's service announcements are regularly announcing gateway 'x' and router the other these days. Time for new kit or new practices.

So you didn't try what worked for me ?

The LLU was to do with the fact that I didn't have a DLM that would mess up my noise margin. Yours will be screwed.

Not knowing the graph colours, is the blue the sync and the red the margin? (If not you were getting negative sync ). And which scale is on the left?

My fault was possibly High Res somewhere in the e-side. Using the phone cured it temporarily.

Ummm. From that one the red is the sync? So how did it go negative? What sync is it, normal?

Why do you say negative sync? |It is only dropping to zero - just that Camie has left the second Y-axis off the graph.

Blue will be the noise margin and Red the sync.

That's why I asked for more detail. You may know what the colours are and what the right-hand axis says. I don't !!!!!

On RSL Lite it was also easy to adjust both scales, which avoids the issue anyway. Is it on the full RSL?

What is odd is that the target noise margin seems not to have been affected. Unless he is somehow setting a target, not a percentage. Thinks .... Maybe he is using the RSL setter, which does ask for a figure - the only one I know of that does. The DLM value has to be 15dB, or if it isn't then something wierd is going on.

Had another bout this morning from 8:45am to about now.

Damned sick of Plusnet nowadays.

Rob:

Can you explain why the 'quiet line test' will stop it, i.e. what is the cause in the first place? The point being, I can't go to Plusnet about this and start talking about quiet line tests unless I know why. If it's not the solution, I'll hardly sound convincing to them.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That's why I asked for more detail. You may know what the colours are and what the right-hand axis says. I don't !!!!!

Red line = sync - line it up to right-hand axis.

Blue line = SNR - line it up with left-hand axis.

...and I check my mail, and in spite of being told 72 hours for 'faults team' response and 3+ hours for a manager response, they have the effing cheek to send my billing e-mail...on time...as usual.

This is not something under Plusnet's control. It is down to Openreach or BT Wholesale kit. It is only Plusnet's responsibility to get it fixed by them.

Quiet line test - something you do. Not PN. Dial 17070 and take option 2, when this is happening. My theory is that because it puts a voltage down the line it can bridge HR faults, possibly partly caused by a bit of damp. Also evaporating the damp.

If you hear crackle, immediately unplug the ADSL cable from the phone socket in the filter. If the crackle continues you have a voice fault. (Best checked again from the test socket, with a corded phone, before you start reporting that. It may be your phone or filter).

If you don't hear crackle, or even if you do, with luck you will find what I did, that the disconnections stop happening. I then needed to let the QLR run for at least 5 minutes to stop an early recurrence. (I only used the QLR because doing a simple dial out (a) needs a number to dial, and (b) times out quite quickly).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If you hear crackle, immediately unplug the ADSL cable from the phone socket in the filter.

My broadband line is hardwired from the back of the faceplate to the extension upstairs.

I was trying to kill two birds with one stone. It wil be easier to talk you through using two stones.

Let's take the easy option first.

When this starts happening, just do the quiet line test, and see if the connection stabilises within a short time. Probably less than a minute. If you hear crackling, that will probably stop at the same time as the connection stabilises.

If the disconnections continue for several minutes during the QLT then we try a different approach.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Quiet line test - something you do. Not PN. Dial 17070 and take option 2, when this is happening. My theory is that because it puts a voltage down the line it can bridge HR faults, possibly partly caused by a bit of damp. Also evaporating the damp.

You'd be much better off ringing the line for a couple of minutes without answering it. It's more efficient at wetting the bad connection.

It was always a good indication of an line fault - a line not getting dial tone until after an incoming call had been received. We could sling that straight back to the external faultsman.

LOL. Yes, that sounds possible.

But seeing as we usually have Radio 3 on, that wouldn't have occurred to me.

On the other hand, you don't find out if there is crackle.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 20-Oct-12 11:50:49)

QLT - nothing. Five minutes of "Quiet Line Test" statements. No blips on the SNR.

Snapshot of BQM for past 24 hrs

Screen shot of 12hrs of routerstats

I think the timing of all these big disconnections is the key to this. Other users of the exchange maybe causing added noise so my line blips out? I've seen it as low at 1.8dB and not disconnect. I still think it's a Plusnet issue. The line noise (on the BQM) at night is higher as the months go by. It adds up to:

a) more users on the exchange

b) more users on Plusnet's network.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What is odd is that the target noise margin seems not to have been affected. Unless he is somehow setting a target, not a percentage. Thinks .... Maybe he is using the RSL setter, which does ask for a figure - the only one I know of that does. The DLM value has to be 15dB, or if it isn't then something wierd is going on.

Plusnet have locked my SNR at 3dB to avoid SNR jumps on connection drops. I'm happy with that. I can suffer a couple of disconnections a month for an extra 1-2 Meg.

You only do the QLT when the problem is occurring. The point of it in this instance is to see if it clears the fault at the time.

Plusnet do not have a network other than what is their side of the WBC nodes.

The connection between you and the exchange DSLAM line card can only be an Openreach issue. The connection at the exchange, i.e. the DSLAM line card, is a BT Wholesale issue.

The number of people online through that DSLAM/line card may be an factor, but still nothing whatsoever to do with Plusnet.

The fixed target SNRM explains that side of things, (PN can request that), so you are operating like my LLU line.

Unless! You aren't on some legacy LLU connection are you? I didn't think they still had those. Does the BT speed test run for you?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Unless! You aren't on some legacy LLU connection are you? I didn't think they still had those. Does the BT speed test run for you?

No. Yes.

In that case, the problem is not with Plusnet. End of.

It is Openreach, BT Wholesale, or your kit/wiring.

The most likely is a developing fault on the line, which my suggestions are trying to identify.

Get ready for another disconnection. SNR at 2.8

I've noticed that a locality near me had an issue on the 17th (Wednesday), and they share the dialling code. No red flags on the VPs.

We'll have to dig deeper.

It seems Plusnet have decided (without consulting me) that a SNR of 9dB ought to do the trick.

Who lets these people make decisions?

I wonder if that's changed automatically?

On 'normal' ADSL I didn't think your ISP could permanently fix or pin a TSNRM.
Not a low one anyway, just one above the default to stabilise things.

If you could request a 'fixed' low TSNRM then I might be in the queue for that to save waiting months for things to recover from a summer storm etc. where my long line is quite susceptible

No. They changed it. They think that errors = bad connection. I've had 13 Meg speeds and errors. That is to say, when the line speed is good. Sometimes it's as low as 4 Meg, and that's due to Plusnet's systems for sure.

Now I've gone from syncs of 15K+ to a sync of 12K and am getting 10 Meg speeds (down from 12.5 Meg).

Had enough of em. The line works fine most of the time, but not when Plusnet's systems are busy. At least two hops on any trace are 100ms plus and they are always Plusnet hops. If I ping other ISPs their hops are fine.

Try their portal. Slowest site I ever visit.

They've been told time and again, and are not interested, so I give up. Looking elsewhere.

You've still got a fault that is nothing to do with anything Plusnet are or are not doing.
[shrug]

As I said, that just sounds like BT's DLM. It looks like your are on a 21CN line so better off than the stone age 20CN rules some of us have to put up with

I can't see how PN would be able to fix your TSNRM to 3db as they can only operate with what BT allow them?

That's what you keep saying.

There is no problem with the line. The broadband can be fast.

Those are the facts. Work out that whatever is causing it, is not me, and I have to assume that it's either my ISP, or my ISP has not one clue as to what it is. Therefore, what is the point in staying with said ISP?

See my sig link. See the speed test history. See the gradual decline of speeds. Note the batch above 13 Meg. Not an occasional thing at the time, but the norm. There's just no consistency to what I'll get now. Sometimes it's 12.5 Meg and 30 mins later it's 8 or 9 Meg.

If that's a line fault, it must be the best one yet, as I've been able to get those speeds from 2.2km from the exchange.

Edit: Not aiming that at you badger. Just letting you know I'm reading your post.

Edited by camieabz (Sat 20-Oct-12 17:29:28)

There is no problem with the line.

Wrong. RouterStats proves there is.

The broadband can be fast.

Yes. When the intermittent fault isn't occurring. So what?

I gave you stage 1 of a few diagnostic tests, and so far as I can tell you haven't done what I suggested. You do appear to have either contacted Plusnet about it, if they have indeed raised the margin to 9dB, and/or to have been under some misapprehension about the previous 3dB. As others have pointed out. There have never been any reports here of anyone having a 3dB noise margin on BT Wholesale that has not resulted purely and simply from the way the latest DLM works, except where people have tweaked it themselves. Are you sure it wasn't you forcing it to 3dB in RouterStats, and it has now been hiked so high by the DLM that 9dB is the lowest it can force?

The fact you said they had fixed it at 3dB was one of the things making me wonder about LLU, as again - agreeing with other posts - I'm not aware of any way PN can fix a noise margin at 3dB. PN certainly would not intervene to change the 3dB, (fixed or not), to 9dB without your having reported a problem.

Whilst they cannot, so far as anyone is aware, fix it at 3dB, they can request the BT Wholesale DLM to apply a "Stable" or "SuperStable" setting. One of which is presumably 9dB rather than the standard 6dB. If you didn't report a problem then it would appear to be the DLM automatically doing this, because of all those disconnections, as I forecast way back when I said I was fortunate to be on LLU so this couldn't happen to my line when I had the same problem.

Best speed test ever:



Snapshot of BQM from that day


Worst test in my collection:



Snapshot of BQM from that day


Bear in mind that there's not a massive amount of packet loss in either. You can see my pingtest line quality in my sig; dated 25th September.

All irrelevant if an intermittent fault developed yesterday. As shown in your routerstats which clearly show disconnections. Plusnet cannot cause disconnections at that frequency of occurrence. As far as I know, the only way they could cause a loss of sync would be via a broadband cease. Which clearly hasn't happened.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The fact you said they had fixed it at 3dB was one of the things making me wonder about LLU, as again - agreeing with other posts - I'm not aware of any way PN can fix a noise margin at 3dB. PN certainly would not intervene to change the 3dB, (fixed or not), to 9dB without your having reported a problem.

Whilst they cannot, so far as anyone is aware, fix it at 3dB, they can request the BT Wholesale DLM to apply a "Stable" or "SuperStable" setting.

Sorry Rob, but you should speak to Plusnet faults team about that. I've mentioned the 3dB thing before.

Linky 1

Linky 2

So what is it then?

Probably a developing HR or similar fault. As already suggested.

It is likely you will get rapid large oscillations in the noise margin even if you don't get disconnections, next time the fault rears its head, now that the noise margin is higher. If you do, try the QLT while it is happening and see if that cures it for a while.

Then stage 2 is, the time after that, just unplug the ADSL cable from the filter/socket and see if there is noise on the QLT. If there is, you have a voice fault which you report (as intermittent) to your line rental CP. With no mention of broadband problems.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Try their portal. Slowest site I ever visit.

I see that too.
One would have thought that an ISP's web site would at least be quick to use.
It is after all the first thing users see.

It's not just the front page either. All pages seem very slow to load to me.

Even with FTTC connections it isn't that much better.

All pages I've tried load in far less than 2 seconds from clicking the link?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

All pages I've tried load in far less than 2 seconds from clicking the link?

Sometimes it's not too bad, but it can be really slow at times, even before 07:00 each day.

Logging in to the Member Centre and/or viewing "problem" tickets can take ages too.
(That may have been due to the huge length of my ongoing ticket that remained open for many months until my connection was eventually permanently "fixed").

In reply to a post by camieabz:

So what is it then?

From the limited RouterStats graphs you've posted, it looks remarkably like the problem I had with REIN some months back, skewed though by you apparently having a fixed SNR margin? I notice that the 12 hour graph doesn't show a problem during the night i.e. when humans are mostly asleep. Is that always the case?

What's happening now that you have a 9dB margin?

Is the connection now holding but with the noise margin dropping every so often by ndB?

Can you post an RS graph that's sampling every 10 secs and set so that there's about 30 mins across the graph please? It might be interesting to see what the drops look like in more detail when they occur and then stop.

My problem was caused by a faulty computer monitor switched mode power supply in a house about 100yds away - every time they checked their mail or used the PC I got clobbered by up to 8dB - it was only when the offenders went on holiday for two weeks that I worked out where it might be after a two week interference free holiday (along with a number of neighbours who had the same problem)! The owners hadn't bothered to address the warning signs that the monitor kept inconveniently switching itself off after an hour or so and was getting hot...

Have your tried listening with a MW radio (within which the ADSL frequency range lies) and see if you can hear some strong buzzing noises when the connection drops out and you then tune around from about 600kHz up?

I don't ever recall anyone posting recordings of REIN, apologies if someone has? If you want to know what you are listening for (for my case anyway) here are two MP3 format recordings, first with no interference and the second with, both tuning up and down the MW band, using a small pocket Roberts radio which was useful when walking around the area with an earpiece trying to trace it:

QUIET Recording

ACTIVE REIN Recording

The original thread on my problem is HERE. Since locating it I've not lost the connection once, even when dropping to below 1db overnight.

Sorry if this ends up being of no help though.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Plusnet have locked my SNR at 3dB

They cannot! The Target NM needs freedom to drift upwards. What would happen if some electrical equipment turned up in your neighborhood or house that caused more noise on your line above the margin. If the margin couldn't increase you would be stuffed with a permanent disconnection.

The most the ISP or BTw could do is set a minimum Target NM below which it cannot drift to ensure stability. You imply they set you a maximum Target NM. Impossible!

The spec for Caller Display used to include the charge/discharge of a capacitor within the Caller Display to give some current wetting prior to the Caller Display fsk data burst. If Camie has Caller Display, may be worth him repeatedly calling his home phone from his mobile?

Cheers!