ISP's upto fishyness!

Hi All.
Recently i have been shopping around for broadband.. when i say recently i mean over 2 months, i like researching my commitments.

Anyway, a few weeks ago i check the BT site to see what normal broadband speeds i get, and what i can potentially get from there infinity.

Last week it showed as upto 19mbps, which i am fine with.
I have checked again this week, and it now says between 4.5mbps and 11mbps, average of 7mbps.

I spoke to orange who had the same spiel.

I did a speedtest.net today 3 times on each occasion and over 3 separate times. It responded with 15mbps.

Is it me or are BT and the others now changing what your normal BB speed is, telling you its lower than what you actually get and what they used to say, to pressure you into buying higher speed BB off them?

These are only estimates. The only way to find out what you should get is from your router stats, particularly attenuation.

Orange seem to have a habit of reporting your speed as well below the actual. I sync at 19-20 Meg for the last year but they report it at 13 Meg, having reduced it from 16 Meg when we were LLU .

No need to talk to Orange. Just look at your Member's Centre on their site. Support will only repeat what's there.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

These are only estimates. The only way to find out what you should get is from your router stats, particularly attenuation.

Orange seem to have a habit of reporting your speed as well below the actual. I sync at 19-20 Meg for the last year but they report it at 13 Meg, having reduced it from 16 Meg when we were LLU .

No need to talk to Orange. Just look at your Member's Centre on their site. Support will only repeat what's there.

Thanks for your response. I dont mind that they where reporting it as lower initially. My issue is that up until 2 weeks ago they where reporting it at double, and now suddenly its 7mb. It almost feels like they tell you its really low, so they can sell you the more expensive fibre product.

In reply to a post by CrazeUK:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

These are only estimates. The only way to find out what you should get is from your router stats, particularly attenuation.

Orange seem to have a habit of reporting your speed as well below the actual. I sync at 19-20 Meg for the last year but they report it at 13 Meg, having reduced it from 16 Meg when we were LLU .

No need to talk to Orange. Just look at your Member's Centre on their site. Support will only repeat what's there.

Thanks for your response. I dont mind that they where reporting it as lower initially. My issue is that up until 2 weeks ago they where reporting it at double, and now suddenly its 7mb. It almost feels like they tell you its really low, so they can sell you the more expensive fibre product.

Not sure that would work, But if the estimated speed for your line is lowered for some unknown reason, and you also started to get a reduced sync rate, they could use the estimate info against you, by giving it the spiel about the line is operating within specification and you are getting more or less the estimated speed for you line,
My speed estimate on BT's adsl checker has been changing from a lower to a higher estimate at the rate of nearly each week

As XRaySpeX says:-

These are only estimates. The only way to find out what you should get is from your router stats, particularly attenuation.

If you can find and post your router stats, see here for help, we can tell very closely what you should be getting now. If you are getting less there is a problem needs finding.

As for researching a new ISP, you are better saying what sort of usage and price you are looking for, and getting a short-list of recommendations from here to do your in-depth research on. The information on websites isn't really a lot of use, any more than washing powder/liquid containers tell you anything useful.

The link to what samknows says about your exchange would help.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-Port--|-Status-----------|-TxPkts-|-RxPkts-|-Collisions-|-Tx-B/s-|-Rx-B/s-|-Up-Time--|
|-------|------------------|---------|--------|------------|--------|--------|----------|
|-WAN--|-PPPoA-----------|-210420-|-273927-|-0----------|-713----|-5680---|-15:03:29-|
|-LAN---|-10M/100M-------|-248078-|-211189-|-0----------|-5270---|-766----|-15:04:09-|
|-WLAN-|-11M/54M/150M-|-77515--|-41157--|-0----------|-702----|-119----|-15:04:12-|
|-------|-----------------|---------|--------|------------|--------|--------|----------|

|-------------------------------------------|
|-ADSL-Link--------|-Downstream-|-Upstream--|
|------------------|------------|-----------|
|-Connection-Speed-|-17115-Kbps-|-1134-Kbps-|
|-Line-Attenuation-|-3.9-dB-----|-12.1-dB---|
|-Noise-Margin-----|-2.6-dB-----|-5.4-dB----|
|------------------|------------|-----------|

You should have a connection of 20+ Meg for that attenuation (iirc).

Maybe the line is a little noisy, so there's a lower SNR value. Have you got up to date and solid wiring and faceplate hardware?

Is Down Attn. of 3.9 dB right? If so you should be getting full 24 Meg Sync.

But it is usually 2 x Up Attn.

Hope you didn't type all that out. Copy and paste is much more reliable even if badly laid out, but we can cope with that.

2.6 dB NM is OK at night from a Target of 3.

Yes, but I wondered what a sync increase might do to the SNR.

True! But I'm puzzled by the Attn.

EDIT: A Sync of 17 Meg is more appropriate for a 23.9 dB attn.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 24-Nov-12 19:55:25)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Is Down Attn. of 3.9 dB right? If so you should be getting full 24 Meg Sync.

But it is usually 2 x Up Attn.

Hope you didn't type all that out. Copy and paste is much more reliable even if badly laid out, but we can cope with that.

Started with copy and paste.. then decided to try format it then just did a find and replace lol.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

True! But I'm puzzled by the Attn.

Lol i am puzzled by all of the above lol!

The wiring does seem to be fine, and there is a good condition faceplate.

I did have BT engineers out a few years ago (5 to be exact at the same time, trying to sort it).

Ping test at speed test

Oh and also after 5pm on a weekday i get ridiculously low down speeds

Edited by deleted (Sat 24-Nov-12 19:51:42)

In reply to a post by CrazeUK:

Started with copy and paste.. then decided to try format it then just did a find and replace lol.

Please do a straight copy and paste. As has been said, your attenuation figures are very wonky.

In reply to a post by CrazeUK:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

True! But I'm puzzled by the Attn.

Lol i am puzzled by all of the above lol!

The wiring does seem to be fine, and there is a good condition faceplate.

I did have BT engineers out a few years ago (5 to be exact at the same time, trying to sort it).

Ping test at speed test

Oh and also after 5pm on a weekday i get ridiculously low down speeds

What router are you using with your ISP Orange EE ? Ask them for a free EE Bright Box router.

My Orange EE Bright Box router stats�

ADSL Status Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode G992.5(ADSL2+) G992.5(ADSL2+)

Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1251 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.8 dB 11.2 dB
Line Attenuation 15.6 dB 29.0 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.5 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 16 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 97 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 15 0

Statistics
Received Cells 148037
Transmitted Cells 26214

In reply to a post by E7er:

What router are you using with your ISP Orange EE ? Ask them for a free EE Bright Box router.

My Orange EE Bright Box router stats�

ADSL Status Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode G992.5(ADSL2+) G992.5(ADSL2+)

Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1251 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.8 dB 11.2 dB
Line Attenuation 15.6 dB 29.0 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.5 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 16 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 97 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 15 0

Statistics
Received Cells 148037
Transmitted Cells 26214

This is the problem. I currently have a Netgear DGN1000 (N150) .

I did call them because my router keeps dropping wireless, so the indian call centre guy promised me a bright box, but through the post i received the same one.

I did call them back then this useless woman, said "oh no sir ve cannot giw you dis one, it was mistake" I then asked for my MAC code, so the orange sales guy decided to say we will only give you a bright box if you signup for another year and an £18 a month service (i currently pay £5)

You have been told repeated by various posters that your attenuation figures, as you posted, look fishy and you haven't once attempted to confirm or otherwise whether they were right or wrong

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You have been told repeated by various posters that your attenuation figures, as you posted, look fishy and you haven't once attempted to confirm or otherwise whether they were right or wrong

Could just be that the router /modem thats presumably suppied by the ISP is giving false figures.just a thought? As we should all be aware that even the brand of router could report differently never mind what vendors chipset is in use, The OP is new here and may not be as tech savy as others are,give them a break

Rather than hypothesising, it wouldn't do OP any harm to answer the Q he was asked if he expects help here.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Rather than hypothesising, it wouldn't do OP any harm to answer the Q he was asked if he expects help here.

In reply to a post by CrazeUK:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

True! But I'm puzzled by the Attn.

Lol i am puzzled by all of the above lol!

The wiring does seem to be fine, and there is a good condition faceplate.

I did have BT engineers out a few years ago (5 to be exact at the same time, trying to sort it).

Ping test at speed test

Oh and also after 5pm on a weekday i get ridiculously low down speeds

Really ?

Guys sorry i didn't upload the stats sooner.

I am definitely not isp / telecoms / router savy at all. I know the bare basics of how to get about the router and manage my home connections.

Also by "hypothesising" i was actually trying to learn about the technical side as i didn't actually understand what a lot of the technical terms are i.e. attenuation. Also the reason why i was hypothesising was to be corrected if my understanding was incorrect.

Back to the router stats:
I did swap over the routers to the new one supplied,.

Here are the stats:
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 241944 383448 0 923 20886 06:38:22
LAN 10M/100M 253197 200147 0 11837 843 07:20:16
WLAN 11M/54M/150M 228695 101322 0 9720 536 07:20:19

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 17056 Kbps 1134 Kbps
Line Attenuation 24.1 dB 12.1 dB
Noise Margin 2.9 dB 5.3 dB

Stats which make more sense!

Quick tutorial (non-geeky version):

Sync - Speed of connection...modem to ISP

Profile - 88.2% of sync (or should be - a BT speedtest shoudl show this) - set by BTw and can fluctuate if line not too stable.

Throughput (actual speed of line) - approximately 94% of profile.

Attenuation - Resistance...lower is better and tends to give an idea of distance from exchange. 24.1dB suggest around 1.8km from exchange. The longer the line, the more metal the signal passes thorugh, the more resistance (attenuation) experienced.

SNR - Signal to noise ratio - higher is better - the name sums it up really; it's the amoung of signal to noise, so higher signal to lower noise (noise is basically interference) is better. Generally set at 15, 12, 9, 6, or 3...ISPs should set this to 6 if the line is good for it. Tweaking to 3 (and some routers allow for 4.5dB settings) allows for higher sync, but more noise, so more line errors and a better chance of line drops...and the sync drops...and the SNR rises.

I suggest you reboot the router between 6am and 8am, and see what the sync is. If better, visit BT speedtest soon after and that should raise the profile of the connection. If your ISP follows up with the profile change, your speeds will rise too. Some folk recommend a time before lunchtime for reboots. Opinions vary.

Rough guess... best sync of 19 Meg and speeds of 17 Meg on 3dB SNR.

they estimate my adsl too high.

sky estimate 9meg for adsl on my address haha, I also remember talktalk telling me a very silly high number over the phone which was in double digits.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I suggest you reboot the router between 6am and 8am, and see what the sync is.

IIRC it is you with the very unusual noise margin behaviour. In general, daylight hours is the important factor. So in the summer, 6am-8am fine, but for most people that would be a bad time in the winter.

If better, visit BT speedtest soon after and that should raise the profile of the connection

Visiting the BT speed test doesn't affect the profile, it just reports it. (We don't want to imply something to this OP that isn't the case).

If your ISP follows up with the profile change, your speeds will rise too.

Very few ISPs apply copies of the IP Profile. I doubt if Orange do but don't know for sure.

Some folk recommend a time before lunchtime for reboots. Opinions vary.

Ah - as covered above .

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-Nov-12 11:02:25)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

IIRC it is you with the very unusual noise margin behaviour. In general, daylight hours is the important factor. So in the summer, 6am-8am fine, but for most people that would be a bad time in the winter.

Hence the suggestion. There's room for other time tests after.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If better, visit BT speedtest soon after and that should raise the profile of the connection

Visiting the BT speed test doesn't affect the profile, it just reports it. (We don't want to imply something to this OP that isn't the case).

Splitting hairs. If I visit the tester then wait a day, my profile can rise. Not always, but it can. If...not sure what triggers it...Plusnet have their systems aligned...or I have a reboot after the test. It's difficult to nail down which...probably the latter.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Very few ISPs apply copies of the IP Profile. I doubt if Orange do but don't know for sure.

Indeed, but the statement stands. If the ISP doesn't raise it, that's another problem for the OP later.

In reply to a post by CrazeUK:

Line Attenuation 24.1 dB 12.1 dB

That's more like it! The previous figures were corrupt.

From that Attn. you should be getting 19 Meg Sync & throughput of about 16 Meg on speedtests. You reported you had previously got 15 Meg on speedtests. At that time you would have been syncing at about 18 Meg, faster than now.

As others have requested, reboot your router during daylight hours and repeat these stats.

Then run the BT Speedtester "ADSL and FTTC Diagnostics" (not the Beta) and copy & paste back just the text results.

It wasn't you who was hypothesising

@ Roberto: There is no indication that Orange keep their own copy of IP Profile like PN; we never see PN-like discrepancies. As Orange actually have BTw managing their BB they would have no reason to.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

From that Attn. you should be getting 19 Meg Sync & throughput of about 16 Meg on speedtests.

Indeed. I'll update my guess. Working more in the 10-13 Meg range, I'm more in the habit of knocking off a couple of Meg. The losses fairly increase as the sync rises.

Edited by camieabz (Mon 26-Nov-12 15:05:49)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

@ Roberto: There is no indication that Orange keep their own copy of IP Profile like PN; we never see PN-like discrepancies. As Orange actually have BTw managing their BB they would have no reason to.

Exactly my logic for saying what I did .

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

As Orange actually have BTw managing their BB they would have no reason to.

Don't PN used BTw WMBC for their BB?

And why would BTw management of the BB end up with no reason for Orange to have to match speeds? I though BT required it of *all* ISPs... even if not all of them do it.

BT Wholesale does not require all the ISPs to shadow the IP Profile in the same way that Plusnet do

Hmmm. I could have sworn I've read it somewhere. And somewhere reputable, like a SIN, rather than just internet gossip.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

no reason for Orange to have to match speeds?

I never said that!

"being managed" is not just "use".

Orange is BTw White Label; PN isn't.

Don't PN have there own backhaul network? Orange doesn't.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

"being managed" is not just "use".

I'll leave this part of the debate until I can find evidence of how I thought ISPs should behave. It used to be *so* obvious, I can't work out why I can't find it now!

Orange is BTw White Label

But BTw don't sell to consumers, so they don't have a white-labellable product, do they?

For example, Plusnet run John Lewis' broadband at the ISP level - so I would define *that* as a white-labelled product. But BTw does something at a different level in the market, so I don't see what you mean.

Or do you mean something different?

Don't PN have there own backhaul network? Orange doesn't.

No - PN use the WBMC product from BTw, though I'm not sure whether they use the shared or dedicated variant.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

But BTw don't sell to consumers, so they don't have a white-labellable product, do they?

Yes, White Label Managed Services "allow any fixed communication service provider to outsource its entire service delivery to BT Wholesale".

PN's provisioning of JLP BB is a horse of entirely a diff colour.

Wow. Never knew they did that!

They did it for the Post Office and Vodafone, I recall. I guess they still do it for BT.

Urm no BT Retail is NOT a white label service.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

They did it for the Post Office and Vodafone, I recall. I guess they still do it for BT.

Correct, but Vodaphone customers have been, or soon will be, moved to Plusnet. As Plusnet customers not Vodaphone. Isn't the PO still White Label BTW?

PO shifted contract to TalkTalk Wholesale, but not sure what is happening there.

Plusnet is a special partner of BT Wholesale. I think what has happened is that Plusnet is basically taking over the white label type services.

????
So that would include Orange supply?

If only Orange support was like PN support.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 06-Dec-12 13:54:12)

I'm amazed how good PN support is. A really strong point.

I think John Lewis is PN support as well. Don't know about Vodafone.

They seem to be the exclusion to the rule.
Hence their PR talk of a special deal with BT Wholesale ages ago.

Either that or the other providers are bailing on the white label service, and Plusnet offering is meeting their needs better, or TalkTalk are.

To be honest if the Orange support is really people answering the phone who are run by BT Wholesale, the support knowledge is very bad, but then you don't get a lot for minimum wage these days.

Orange made a smart move going with BT white label, I would think broadband help and advice will be more complex now with Fibre and ADSL services.

BT will take over Orange's fixed-line business, with 61 Orange staff moving to BT as part of the process.
The move to BT will not only increase Orange's coverage, but will also free up resources to invest in its broadband products and customer services.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/357307/orange-...

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Dec-12 17:59:45)

In reply to a post by E7er:

61 Orange staff moving to BT as part of the process.

They never gained any BB knowledge in the move