Rural phoneline/broadband problem.

Hi guys, I did make a post before, but thought it would be tidier to just start again.

We live in a very rural location, between 7.5 and 8km of cable from the exchange. however I think its quite possible that the 4-5km of UG cable is 0.9mm, maybe even some of the overhead, I'm not sure... The phone has been here since the late 50's.

in our immediate area, where the UG cable goes to overhead (coincidentally this is also the end of the UG.) there are 10 properties, of which 2 probably have no phone paid up (only partially occupied.), and the rest bar 1 have broadband. We are second from the end, the next property is a further 3km ish of cable, and as such will not get broadband.

Our line attenuation is round about 69-70db, noise is currently 17db, and sync speed anywhere between 300-600kbps at the moment. However we are experiencing very poor sync (can take hours) and high data errors, that we never used to get, also speed is down from 1280kbps (stable).

Now we have had 5 BT openreach engineers (one a 'broadband boost'), and another booked for a week on monday. Number 3 apparently swapped pairs, and after he left sync still was not perfect, but speed shot up to 1760kbps for 3 days, then dived to 300kbps.

We are also getting the additional symptoms of hearing our 2 immediate neighbors on either side's phone ringing (faintly, no we can't hear conversations) and the ticking of an electric fence which is maybe 100m from where the UG cable goes to overhead.

I'm really just looking for advice on what to do next, I have all the information for the engineers, they just can't/won't do anything! plus as an added annoyance the line tests fully ok on their equipment (line balancing, everything etc within tolerances and on par with what they would expect for such a line length). To be honest I can't see how this is possible considering the ringing from other lines we can hear...

One of our neighbors said he had tons of trouble, until they replaced his stretch of overhead, but how do I get them to do that? I've spoken to the engineers before on other jobs on this line, the trouble is the overhead wire goes through trees and gets constantly bashed from them, breaking up the cable inside.

Any help would be much appreciated, I've tried to include all the relevant information and to be concise...

Thanks, JF.

In reply to a post by 405mi16:

We are also getting the additional symptoms of hearing our 2 immediate neighbors on either side's phone ringing (faintly, no we can't hear conversations) and the ticking of an electric fence which is maybe 100m from where the UG cable goes to overhead.

Then you have a definite voice fault; nevermind the BB. Do you get those sounds when you call BT Quiet Line Test (17070 Opt 2) with the router disconned? Forget the BB for now and concentrate on that. It is BT's responsibility to fix it.

Yes, that's the only time you can hear them because the dial tone covers up the noises.

And yes, its been reported as a voice fault, as it seems to be the only way TalkTalk will send out a BT engineer instead of a useless (no offence) Cube engineer.

I had 2 BT guys out yesterday, first only came to listen, then referred it to the 'UG guys', the the 'UG guy' came out in the afternoon, took some junctions apart, put them back together, then came into the house with 4 bags of kit, here was me hoping it was some kind of super tester, but no. It was just the predecessor to the current JDSU tester, and just like its modern counterpart it found nothing. I offered to replicate the noise for him to hear, but he wasn't bothered and just left, he then phoned half an hour later saying he had spoken to his boss and that they were closing the fault and I would have to get TalkTalk to send out a Bt Openreach Broadband engineer, I wasnt keen seeing as over the past 3 months and countless phonecalls to TalkTalk Technical Support I have found them to be insanely inconsistent as to what they would do. But I landed lucky, and the guy begrudgingly booked an engineer for a week on Monday.

But the thing is, I just want it so that BT openreach will follow through till its fixed, and I don't have to keep speaking to TalkTalk... any suggestions?

Thanks, JF.

Only the unwelcome suggestion of never taking your landline away from BT if you want voice faults such as this reported & fixed painlessly. BT Retail are excellent at handling them and it can all be done online.

We are also getting the additional symptoms of hearing our 2 immediate neighbours on either side's phone ringing

You may be better ignoring broadband in discussions with Talk Talk and focussing on this. I helped out a radio station that had crosstalk between lines (potentially embarrassing if the office line gets broadcast in a phone-in !) and it was down to corrosion and plant infestation in a neglected junction box.

If the neighbours can hear you in a similar way try to get them to report a voice fault too.

Dialling a single digit gets rid of the dial tone

Yes, well I've been using the 17070 opt 2 quiet line test quite a bit, thing is we also have an electric fence noise, but it seems to vary quite a bit from a definite clicking, to a soft pulsing in the background buzz (which it is now...).

My main complaint I suppose is with BT Openreach, its entirely their problem, their exchange, equipment, cables, poles, junction boxes... It has nothing to do with TalkTalk, so why do the engineers keep closing the fault and telling me to re-report it?! Surely once its been taken to an engineer visit, and he cant fix it, it would be escalated within BT??

Seriously though, 5 BT engineers, 2 of which were half deaf, another young and inexperienced with long lines who spent more time on the phone to his boss (who told him that its a long line, they're just like that) than actually doing anything... And I'm still exactly where I was 3 months ago! Or am I being a little unreasonable?

Thanks, JF.

Talk Talk are Openreach's customer in this case. If they report a voice fault and that fault isn't present when the technician rolls up it is difficult for them to do anything about it.

Similarly if TT report a line fault affecting the broadband and there is no evidence of a fault what do they do ? Openreach are only selling T-T a copper line with an approximate length and a few well publicised electrical parameters, if the line is within those parameters there is in fact no fault.

As for the electric fence, the owner of that is responsible for electromagnetic emissions or nuisance it causes. Are the animals actually in the field ? could the fence be moved a little further away from the phone line or put at an angle to it etc ??

I fully understand and agree with all of that, but the fact is there is a pretty clear fault (hearing other folks' ringing on our line), but the engineers say that they don't/can't understand or fix it, while the line passes all the box of tricks tests, the fault is still there, and the engineers know it isn't fixed when they leave, so why doesn't BT follow through with a more advanced/experienced engineer to actually fix it? Rather than waiting on me to re-report the exact same fault again and again, hoping that one of these times the engineer can actually fix it.

And as for the the electric fence, well that's relatively straightforward, but we'll worry about that later when they fix the rest. Can anyone give be an explanation of how the pulses from the fence end up in a fully insulated cable?

Thanks, JF.

electromagnetic radiation from the fence is picked up by the phone wire, like you can have insulated aerials. This is most likely to happen if you have what is known as a "split pair" which may also give the symptoms you describe as it isn't a twisted pair with its noise rejecting properties . The common mode filter in a iPlate might help a bit.

A split pair is when you use one half of two pairs and someone else uses the other half of two pairs (or similar) and can arise if a cable joint is made / remade incorrectly.

The correct procedure in the faults system is for Talk Talk to reject the fault clearance, having asked you if its ok - they text you and ask you to reply "fixed" don't they ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

The common mode filter in a iPlate might help a bit.

Can you explain what you mean by "common mode filter"? As it is the 4 wire BT cable (yes, I know only one pair is used and the other is standby for a second line or if the current pair fails for some reason) comes straight through the wall into a single brand new NTE5 master socket, there is no extension wiring AT ALL in the house, there is also a filtered faceplate on this, with the adsl router sitting right beside it, and one DECT cordless phone, and one plain old corded phone.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

The correct procedure in the faults system is for Talk Talk to reject the fault clearance, having asked you if its ok - they text you and ask you to reply "fixed" don't they ?

Yes they do, at the moment I have 13 of them!

The most frustrating thing is the time wasting to be honest, every time there is a minimum wait of a full week when getting a BT appointment...

Thanks, JF.

the iPlate has a common mode choke with at least the theoretical capability of rejecting interference while allowing balanced signals to pass. May help with the electric fence, possibly, worth a go for a few quid.

And as for the the electric fence, well that's relatively straightforward, but we'll worry about that later when they fix the rest. Can anyone give be an explanation of how the pulses from the fence end up in a fully insulated cable?

I'd be looking to get that fixed now. If you can hear it ticking on the line, there is no doubt that it's injecting errors on to the circuit. I wonder if the fence is 'pig grade' they seem to kick out more RF than the normal ones.
This can be seen on the engineers JDSU/Exfo tester, using the manual ADSL test, on the errors screen, should be seen as the bursts of errors in time with the ticking. The wideband time can also be used to look down the line to 'see' REIN.

I'd agree with Yarwell that a split pair, possibly rectified, might be the cause. All the 'usual' culprits, battery faults, and the like would have shown up on the previous engineers close out tests.

When the engineer calls to your house and runs the PQ test with the jdsu or exfo tester ask to see the results the ac balance needs to be above 60db and also look at the resistance between the A and B leg any more then 11 ohms is looking like a H/R dis out to line, sounds to me like you need to try and turn the fence off first see if it gets any better, your main problem is the line lenth. I also very much dout the pq test will pass with the overhearing etc, the test result needs to be all orange and/or green to pass any red is a fail and needs to be faulted. hope this helps

Thanks, I'll certainly give the I plate a go when the engineers have finished.

Thing is, its not a hugely beefy fence unit, its only doing a small chicken run, but I suspect the problem is largely because its a net, and the net goes right to the floor, that every pulse will be going to ground. The fence is probably 150m from the phone line at the closest point, 200m from where the main UG cable comes up to go to overhead. As I say, at the moment to ticking has changed to a soft pulsing buzz, could this be due to all the snow cushioning the interference?

So is it possible that the noise of our neighbors phone ringing bleeding through onto our line might not be from a physical problem (like damaged cable or dodgy connections in a junction box), but from EMI?

Oh, and kind of a side point, but one of the engineers said that everyone's pretty solid background buzz on the phone line was due to EMI in the underground bundle of 50 pairs since most places have adsl running all the time now. But to my mind there's only about a maximum of 25 pairs in use on that cable, is that enough to cause a significant background buzz? Or is that more due to the line length?

As a final point, given that the inter-exchange fibres already run up the road, how much would BT be asking for to blow 5km of fibre up the road? See I've got my fingers crossed for FTTP at some point in the next few years...

Thanks, JF.

Why are you telling me this Mart ?

dunno who uses electric fences for chickens, let alone a mesh, but anyway.

Crosstalk of voice won't be EMI between balanced pairs, or the whole phone network would suffer from it all the time.

You can't hear ADSL as it starts well above hearing range, so that isn't the buzz.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

You can't hear ADSL as it starts well above hearing range, so that isn't the buzz.

Yes you can, if the line has a HR fault.

When I had a major HR fault last year caused by a dodgy frontage tee joint, I could hear the modem syncing on the phone among all of the cracking.

It could very well be a HR fault. Once whatever is causing the voice fault is fixed, your broadband speed should definitely improve.

Edited by chris6273 (Wed 13-Feb-13 14:30:41)

you cannot hear ADSL.

You may hear audio tones generated in response to the ADSL signal by unfiltered equipment or by a fault but there isn't a continuing audible element in the ADSL signal itself.

Right, ok...

Quick question, but has anyone any ideas what would be causing a very pronounced and constant buzzing on the line? After speaking to the neighbors it turns out that all 10 properties served by this line after it comes out of the ground have a very pronounced background buzz, and also get accused, by the other end, of being quiet.

Problem is, this problem has been gradually getting worse, and whilst we have been here for generations and know it should be better, everyone else has only moved here relatively recently and puts up with it because they don't know any better, or believe its to do with staying out in the sticks...

I just want to know when the engineer is flanneling me!

Thanks, JF.

is it mains frequency ? like you get when you put your finger on the end of an input jack on a hifi or PC speakers

I suppose it could be... It never stops or changes pitch anyway.

Do you think its possible to be fixed? Or does BT run their own electric grid between exchanges?

One problem that occurs a lot on voice lines out in the country is mains hum. There are often transformers connected to 10kV lines and they do cause a lot of problems - the hum frequency could be 150 Hz, with 300Hz and 450Hz also significant. Those are all very audible.

If the level is high enough it could be causing problems with the front end of the modem where there is normally a built in filter - breaking through the filter and causing issues.

If the noise is on all lines then you ALL need to get together and raise te problem with BT - they can then work back along te line to find teh source of interference and then arrange for the problem to be dealt with - might not be BT plant at fault but they will sort out power companies or individuals that are causing interference.

Ok, well I've just gone along the line, and Ironically the only 11kv transformer anywhere near a BT cable is our own, and its only near our cable. If it was that, could it feed back down the line and interfere with everyone else's lines?

The frequency of the buzz is 495-498Hz according to my app, With the fence pulsing at 2600Hz.

Also, so say there are 7/8 inhabited places being served at this point on the UG cable, and if everyone was with a different phone/Internet provider, how do you go about banding together against BT?

Thanks, JF.

You are not going to band together AGAINST BT. You need to work with BT as it is unlikely that their plant will be the cause and if it is they will fix it.

Get all of you neighbours to give you their numbers and who they are with - I would guess a majority will be with BT. Find one who is a business customer and get them to report the problem and to reinforce the fact that you are all affected. Rather than have a Technician out you need to get the customer service adviser to get a supervisor or manager on the line and at that point go through the problem affecting all 10 houses. Get an email address and send your list to him saying that you have permission from all concerned to raise the problem.

Then take it from there.

Just to remind them, I assume it is a pure voice problem that is to be raised? No mention of broadband.

If it was that, could it feed back down the line and interfere with everyone else's lines?

yes, electricity is bidirectional.

Like MHC says, each customer with a hum on their line needs to raise the hum issue with their telephony provider, these will arrive at Openreach and hopefully someone will spot a pattern, or 10 vans will turn up on the same day and realise there's an issue.

You are not going to band together AGAINST BT. You need to work with BT as it is unlikely that their plant will be the cause and if it is they will fix it.

Thank you, saves me the bother of typing this exact statement.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You are not going to band together AGAINST BT. You need to work with BT as it is unlikely that their plant will be the cause and if it is they will fix it.

Thank you, saves me the bother of typing this exact statement.

Sorry for any offence caused, it was not intentional. I would go back and edit my post, but I appear to be out of time.

Just remembered what the one of the engineers said, he said its still buzzing with my line disconnected and the tester plugged in at the UG/overhead junction box.

So who knows, fingers crossed for Monday.

Thanks, JF.

Well I just thought I'd update this thread...

BT have surpassed themselves today, after waiting just over a week for an Openreach broadband boost engineer appointment, and after checking twice it had definitely been booked, it turns out they managed to magically fix the fault without even visiting, therefore they didn't need to bother to turn up today, or to let me know.

Unfortunately its not really fixed, they didn't really do anything, or try to contact me (which apparently they did, unlikely since the place has been occupied 24/7 for the past month...). So that is a total of 8 days wasted staying here on bt appointment days, 3 of which nobody even turned up! I wouldn't mind so much, but that's 8 days of work lost...

JF.

and I would have to get TalkTalk to send out a Bt Openreach Broadband engineer, I wasnt keen seeing as over the past 3 months and countless phonecalls to TalkTalk Technical Support I have found them to be insanely inconsistent as to what they would do. But I landed lucky, and the guy begrudgingly booked an engineer for a week on Monday.

What did the guy "begrudgingly" book? A phone fault/engineer, or broadband? What did you tell him, and ask for?

I'm also still puzzled by:-

its not a hugely beefy fence unit, its only doing a small chicken run, but I suspect the problem is largely because its a net, and the net goes right to the floor, that every pulse will be going to ground.

I gather from "the only 11kv transformer anywhere near a BT cable is our own" that it is your fence? So why not just turn it off and see what happens?

You also imply earlier that it wasn't like this in the past. So when was the fence installed, in relation to the noise starting?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

dunno who uses electric fences for chickens, let alone a mesh, but anyway.

To deter foxes?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

and I would have to get TalkTalk to send out a Bt Openreach Broadband engineer, I wasnt keen seeing as over the past 3 months and countless phonecalls to TalkTalk Technical Support I have found them to be insanely inconsistent as to what they would do. But I landed lucky, and the guy begrudgingly booked an engineer for a week on Monday.

What did the guy "begrudgingly" book? A phone fault/engineer, or broadband? What did you tell him, and ask for?

I'm also still puzzled by:-

its not a hugely beefy fence unit, its only doing a small chicken run, but I suspect the problem is largely because its a net, and the net goes right to the floor, that every pulse will be going to ground.

I gather from "the only 11kv transformer anywhere near a BT cable is our own" that it is your fence? So why not just turn it off and see what happens?

You also imply earlier that it wasn't like this in the past. So when was the fence installed, in relation to the noise starting?

The guy made an appointment for a BT Openreach engineer to visit, wether it was a linesman or a "broadband boost" I can't say, besides which Openreach decided to ignore this and not tell anyone that they had... Another appointment made for Wednesday.

I told him exactly what the BT linesman told me to say, I asked for a "BT Openreach Broadband engineer". Still can't fathom why each engineer goes home and ticks the "fixed" box even though they know it isn't...

Not our electric fence, a neighbours. When I say 11kv transformer, I mean SSE's one on a pole transforming 11kv down to our 250v mains, but as I say I don't think this means anything because previous engineers have said they still get the noise when the section of cable that runs by it is disconnected.

And no, it wasn't like this in the past (the past being a quiet line and stable 1Meg bb with very very few errors), but besides a ticking I honestly don't believe the fence has any great effect on the line, I have had it switched of several times and the main noise/problems remain.

Thanks, JF.

EDIT:
Yeah, foxes, that's why the electric fence, but also to keep the chickens in, they Live right by a main road.

Edited by deleted (Mon 18-Feb-13 14:02:46)

To deter foxes?

it's a thought, but they would just hop over.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

To deter foxes?

it's a thought, but they would just hop over.

Nah, at just over a metre high foxes wouldn't clear jump it, so first contact scrabbling over will put them off. Its very good at that actually.

Oh well, Just thought I'd put another update down.

Wednesday.
BT Openreach engineer turns up, I ask him what happens if he cannot fix the issue, he explains to me that his orders are very clear, if the line passes his JDSU tester he clears the fault and goes home, his hands are tied and he cannot do anything else. So he goes to the socket, and comes up with an "insulation fault". So he goes 500m down the line, tests ok, back 100m ok, back to the gable end of the house ok. Turns out one of our new sockets less than a fortnight old is faulty! So he replaces that, and gives us a nice shiny Openreach VDSL filter faceplate. He also apologises for not being able to fix the actual problem.

A few hours later I phone TalkTalk Fault Management (its bad when you know their number better than your own mothers!). I speak to a nice Indian woman and explain the whole past 3 months. She listens, apologises, and tells me she is away to speak to openreach and will call me back. Half an hour later the phone rings and she tells me she had spoken to the engineer at Openreach, and that he had explained to her that our cable has degraded to such an extent that the only real fix was to "replace the entire 7.5km from the exchange the the property". She says clearly this is not a quick or cheap thing to do, so a report had been put in to Openreach managers, and TalkTalk managers. If the fault is not able to be resolved we may have to cancel your contract since we are not able to provide the service you are paying for, there was also talk of compensation. She will phone back tomorrow to update.

Tomorrow.
Get a call from TalkTalk UK, knows nothing of my phone call yesterday, blames wet weather, says Indian woman couldn't have spoken to Openreach (I cant see any other way she would get the information she had) and says she is sending out another BT engineer, but no mention of a time slot. This was the worst call centre person I have spoken to yet, completely refused to leave the script, I have honestly gotten on better with the Indian guys.

Half an hour later I got myself that wound up that I called India back and explained the whole situation to somebody else who then went off to speak to Openreach. When he called back he told me that Openreach were requesting this visit (I had been told that before) and that he had made sure the notes to go with this visit explained the issues and previous visits as much as they could. Timeslot booked for Monday morning.

I know people will say I would be better off with BT retail, but the issues are fundamentally Openreach's failings. Granted TalkTalk are not entirely blameless, But they keep reporting the fault and Openreach keep closing it, who is more to blame?

If you can't be bothered to read all that I don't blame you, I'm pretty peed off now as well...

JF.

I would take most of what they told you with a pink of salt.

The service providers for one have no access to the Openreach engineers who work in the field, all they see is the electronic report with various fault codes.

Alright guys, can you just tell me one thing?

When Openreach send out another engineer to the same property/number for the seventh time in 3 months, do they not have a recent history list of notes?!

Problem still ongoing, latest Openreach engineer just as useless (sorry, that's perhaps a little harsh, lets just say unable to help) as the last 6.

Also, problem is more widespread (further down the UG cable to the exchange) than I originally thought, however as we are second from the end of the line the littlest thing affects us badly. Since everyone else is significantly closer they don't feel the ill effects as much and so aren't bothered...

Thanks, JF.

EDIT: Just spoken to TalkTalk yet again, they are now claiming that the fault is within the exchange (plausible), that it is being worked on (not so plausible...), and also that it will be fixed within 48hrs (my foot!).

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Feb-13 09:48:36)

In reply to a post by 405mi16:

If you can't be bothered to read all that I don't blame you, I'm pretty peed off now as well...
JF.

It's fascinating stuff so keep posting!

Not that fascinating for me I'm afraid!

Currently on the phone to TalkTalk to cancel, unfortunately in contract so they want to charge me! So they are wanting to send out one more engineer, then if still not fixed they say they will waive the fees (cheers guys!)...

Not especially happy since TalkTalk are £10 a month cheaper than BT, and seeing as its BT's problem I don't see how TalkTalk should lose a customer over it (apart from their god-awful fault management process!), or how BT should gain one actually... Besides which we don't want a homehub, or 2GB of BT cloud, or any of the other [censored] they give you to try and convince you your actually getting a good deal...

All I want is the line fixed, and to get back our old faithful 1Meg stable broadband!

Yet 10 miles down the road they are getting geared up for ADSL2+ to be upgraded to fibre!

JF.

EDIT: Oh joy, after an hour on the phone they've let us go without fees, now I wonder just how good BT's fault handling is... TalkTalk wouldnt give us compensation unless they fixed the fault! And BT service wont start untill a months time, so I guess we'll have a quiet month.

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Feb-13 11:49:42)

Well, after I cancelled TalkTalk and signed up with BT (start date of 27/03/2013) I got a phone call from a TalkTalk UK call centre, asking if I still had the fault, and if I wanted to book an engineer. Apparently they are still responsible for problems until the 27th...

So I say yeah, go and knock yourself out! Engineer booked for today, and when he turned up he made it clear he was one of the guys that will follow through with a fault. He did all his tests, same as before with no faults, but he agreed something wasn't right. So he calls up a collegue and they work together and test each run of cable right back to the exchange. All tested ok but one stretch he had a pair with a slightly better A/C balance, so swapped them.

He then came back and explained what he had done, and how he was able to replicate our problem even when calling the exchange number. So he thinks its possible that we are on a faulty line card, and that the further from the exchange you get the length of cable acts as an aerial and amplifies the line card fault. Soo, he has kicked it back to the exchange with lots of notes explaining the problem and what had already been done. He also suggested that this may not actually fix the BB problem as that may be down to faulty exchange equipment.

Any comments are welcome.

Thanks, JF.

Which exchange is this BTW?

ESBOC

ADSL MAX since 2006 I think...

Its just a wee wooden (clad) shed.

JF.

He then came back and explained what he had done, and how he was able to replicate our problem even when calling the exchange number. So he thinks its possible that we are on a faulty line card, and that the further from the exchange you get the length of cable acts as an aerial and amplifies the line card fault. Soo, he has kicked it back to the exchange with lots of notes explaining the problem and what had already been done. He also suggested that this may not actually fix the BB problem as that may be down to faulty exchange equipment.

I believe I am right in saying the move to BT means the exchange equipment will be different?
I believe I am also right in saying the move to BT will by pass TalkTalks line cards etc?

I had issues on AOL and eclipse with dropping of connection. All of these services were via BTs equipment.
I had engineer after engineer out nobody found a fault.
Sky then installed full LLU & switched me to it. They told me that if the fault was with BTs equipment in the exchange it would resolve things.
I never had a drop out since.

I don't guarantee it'll fix things but it's worth a shot. BT are also good at fault management compared with TT. They keep sending out engineers till somethings done (as long as you let them). BT are quick to charge customers for call outs though if you don't keep following it through until the issues resolved.

The issue with TT is they're only sending out basic engineers. By now BT would have requested some more advanced engineers with better experience and better testing. TT don't have the margins to through on faults like this so if the basic troubleshooting doesn't work they cancel the contract.

It is a BT openreach fault but the ISP tells openreach what to do.
TT isn't giving BT the authority to do anything too costly and that's the problem.

You also say it takes 7 days plus to get an engineer out. This is again TT being cheap. If they pay a little more they can get an engineer out much sooner. BT commonly do this, TT no.

There's a reason ISPs are so cheap like TT. BT aren't perfect though don't get me wrong.

A&A are among the best at resolving a fault.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 28-Feb-13 15:02:45)

Interesting, TT no longer offer service in your area.

When did you join them?

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I believe I am right in saying the move to BT means the exchange equipment will be different?
I believe I am also right in saying the move to BT will by pass TalkTalks line cards etc?

No, TT are non-LLU at OP's exchange.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Sky then installed full LLU & switched me to it.

Do you mean TT (as you were with AOL)? Or do you mean you migrated from AOL to Sky?

Oh balls!!

Oh no I didn't explain greatly.
I had eclipse internet, then AOL. Both had this intermittent drop out issue.
I then got SKY but I wasn't on the full LLU service as I had landline with BT. I'm not even sure if I was on Sky LLU at all at this stage.
The dropouts continued. At this stage they got much much worse.

All of this time I had intermittent broadband with a faint buzzing on my line. I raised it as a voice fault and BT tried billing me £300 for the visit as no fault was found & I didn't pursue it any further... Hence why I say to the poster to keep going until it's resolved.

At this stage I raised it via Sky as a BB fault as it also interfered with BB. Sky were great.
They fitted a new drop cable, new e side, new d side, new master socket, filtered socket, RF filter.
They kept insisting the issue was on BTs side but apparently BT wouldn't accept an issue.

Sky did inform me that customers who had been on full LLU on my exchange had uptimes of 150 days + whereas those on partial were on 7 days maximum. They could see the issue of drop outs on those who were not on full LLU.

A switch to full LLU fixed everything (and a landline move to Sky + line rental). They told me the issue is with some BT equipment but BT will not authorise it to be repaired / replaced due to expense.

So lesson learnt that equipment can cause major issues.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 28-Feb-13 15:21:10)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Interesting, TT no longer offer service in your area.

When did you join them?

Really?

Been with them by default since they bought Tiscali, and before that it was Lineone (who were bought by tiscali...) never ever changed internet suppliers... Actually that's a lie, had zednet(?) before lineone back in the dial-up days, but as soon as the exchange was enabled we went to bb.

Like I say, TalkTalk are £10/month cheaper than BT, but with BT's 6 months free offer it evens out over 18 months, so we'll carry on and reassess in 18 months.

TBH we have been concentrating on the line noise as a voice fault as its the only way to get a BT engineer and not a TalkTalk guy. But as I said the line tests ok every time, and its only after today's guy has been at it that I can say pretty certainly that the noise is not a line issue, but in fact an exchange equipment issue.

I understand that it has dragged on largely because of poor communication between TalkTalk and Openreach, but they know there have been others out before at Openreach. Line engineers have been sent out on a "concious decision order" or something or other, basically line tests ok, but TalkTalk tell BT to go anyway. Problem is... further up the chain of command, it would appear that management in this area specifically is more concerned with number of things "fixed" rather than actually fixing them, if you know what I mean. I'm only reading between the lines since the engineers don't generally say anything.

Re number of days before engineer visits is an area issue again, over the dec/jan period it was fully 7 days, but recently have got day after next...

With only 150 or so connections I don't think its worth anyone's time to put LLU equipment in...

JF.

Yes, TT must be providing you (via BTw) cuz they inherited you from Tiscali.

I've have done a few experiments, for the purpose of another thread, of a number of TT non-LLU exchanges and in all cases they say they're unable to offer TalkTalk services as it is not currently available.

Yes, well interestingly enough every time I do a speedtest it registers the ISP as Tiscali UK Limited...

JF.

If you raise it as a BB issue with BT they will get somebody out to you who is an actual engineer. No other ISP sends out their own guys. Other ISPs all use BT openreach for all of their faults.

I never fully understood how talktalk worked. I believe they send out their own engineers as they are cheaper than sending out BT but I get a little lost as surely the engineers can't touch BTs equipment? (which renders them useless for anything complex). I could be entirely wrong here. I've always wondered what they can actually do.

I'm hopeful that BT will get this resolved.

As a side note the homehub is good at holding onto connections on long lines with interference. When it arrives please give it a go. It's amazing what a different router chipset etc can do. I doubt it'll resolve everything but it might be slightly better at holding on.

& yes there is unlikely to ever be LLU at the exchange.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I never fully understood how talktalk worked. I believe they send out their own engineers as they are cheaper than sending out BT but I get a little lost as surely the engineers can't touch BTs equipment? (which renders them useless for anything complex). I could be entirely wrong here. I've always wondered what they can actually do.

TalkTalk (Qube) engineers exist because they are cheaper for faults inside the home (they charge £50, but if BT find a fault inside the home TT still charge you £50, but BT charges TT £140 odd), and I think they can deal with TT LLU exchange equipment as well.

Yeah, the 3 Qube engineers I had basically plugged in a new router in the test socket, then phoned the same call centre I could call, then the call centre ignores them and it just stops there...

Well fingers crossed, we'll see what happens...

JF.

EDIT: Cube's changed for Qube's...

Edited by deleted (Thu 28-Feb-13 18:38:36)

Just a one correction. Not 'Cube' but 'Qube'.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

Just a one correction. Not 'Cube' but 'Qube'.

Thanks for that, and fixed!

Also as a short update, got a call from TalkTalk UK about 1630 (apparently they want to provide a better service now we're leaving...), and they told me the fault had just been cleared as fixed by Openreach, and they just wondered if that was right...

JF.

Well guys, its been a while.

We're back with BT now, as the information here was that they can deal with faults better. Doesn't seem to be the case yet.

In the month leading up to switching over TalkTalk were hounding me to send an engineer up, so I caved and they sent 2 more bringing the total up to about 10+ (I've lost count if I'm honest). so out of the 10 - 1 dealt with an iffy connection and improved the line (but did not completely cure it), 1 swapped pairs from the exchange to the property, 1 comprehensively checked every stretch of cable between us and the exchange and concluded the fault lay within the exchange (so much for BT's equipment never being at fault(!)), 1 checked the line from the house, then listened on the board at the exchange and agreed the fault lay within the exchange, 1 read the notes and phoned me from the exchange to let me know there was no point in him coming out*, 2 never bothered to turn up, and 5 did nothing beyond plugging in their tester and then saying there's nothing they could do.

*This engineer explained to me that OFCOM ordered the breaking up of BT into 3 different companies. Openreach installs/repairs/maintains the cables. Wholesale installs exchange equipment. And another that I can't remember maintains/repairs exchange equipment. He also gave me an Openreach fault reference number relating to our problem.

One of the times TalkTalk phoned it was a UK based call centre, so I explained what was going on, and gave him the fault code the engineer had given me, he said I'll check this out and give you a call back. And true to his word he did half an hour later. He said there was a problem with the tracking system and that because of the way this fault had been logged, or the type of fault it is, or whatever, it doesn't work with the tracking system. And that was it, he accepted there was no point in sending an engineer out, and wished me the best of luck.

So now that we're switched back (as they love to say) to BT I decided to phone their fault line and see if they had any better idea what is going on. Turns out they don't. They wanted to go through all the basic checks (is it plugged in? Is it switched on? Are you using a cable to connect to the router? Are you using filters? etc...) I just went with it (there's no point in fighting the script). Anyway, so she decides an engineer visit is required, I say there's no point, here's an Openreach code, speak to them please. That code doesn't work, means nothing, we'll send an engineer out. So an engineer is due to turn up tomorrow (Saturday). I wonder what will happen(!).

And just to fill the page is, here's my lovely brand new HomeHub3's stats.

ADSL Line Status

Connection Information

Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 05:58:16
Downstream: 320 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 13.8 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 71.1 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 15.0 dBm / 12.5 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 1253738 / 372
CRC Events (Down/Up): 6944 / 32
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 2899 / 23
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3564 / 309

And a BT Wholesale Speedtest:
First
Download - 0.13
Uplead - 0.34
Ping - 179.5
Second
Download - 0.14
Upload - 0.26
Ping - 50.25

Aproaching 5 months fast, but I don't blame TalkTalk, not their line equipment or engineers, all they can say is its still not working and rely on BT to do their job.

JF.

Looking at your first post where you said this:

One of our neighbors said he had tons of trouble, until they replaced his stretch of overhead, but how do I get them to do that? I've spoken to the engineers before on other jobs on this line, the trouble is the overhead wire goes through trees and gets constantly bashed from them, breaking up the cable inside.

which is reinforced by this comment from TalkTalk Fault Management:

.....and she tells me she had spoken to the engineer at Openreach, and that he had explained to her that our cable has degraded to such an extent that the only real fix was to "replace the entire 7.5km from the exchange the the property

Surely this issue should be addressed first? Are all these checks on the line and equipment only passing the line as suitable for voice calls?

Well it turns out while his line needed replaced to get acceptable service, he still has the same fault as us. The fault actually turns out to affect a significant number of people served by the same exchange. However a lot of the people wont accept there is an issue, as it doesnt affect them as much as us (because we are 2nd from last on the line (the last guys are on satellite))

The comment from TalkTalk Fault Management turned out to be a load of rubbish/incorrect report by an engineer/whatever. Thing is 2 of the more recent engineers have proved the fault lies within the exchange by replicating it before the cable even leaves the building.

I shall persevere, but I have a funny feeling I will continue to get the "your line is fine" and the "your broadband speed is within range" rubbish.

JF.

In reply to a post by 405mi16:

<snip>

*This engineer explained to me that OFCOM ordered the breaking up of BT into 3 different companies. Openreach installs/repairs/maintains the cables. Wholesale installs exchange equipment. And another that I can't remember maintains/repairs exchange equipment.

<snip>

BT Openreach are responsible for the 'first mile' (or 'last mile', depending on which direction you look) which is located in public places (up poles, down holes, etc) and EU locations (domestic or business), whilst BT Operate are responsible for the exchange based equipment, the FTTCs and the fibre optic feed to/from the latter.

Oh well, after nearly a month of dealing with the BT Priority Care Team I can now say.... I have got nowhere!

(As a side note it would appear since the guy apparently changed "some" equipment in the exchange my attenuation has increased from 69.6 right up to 71.6!)

Anyway, currently on down/up 320/480kbps (250 ip profile) with shed-loads of errors of all kinds, virtually nothing (no internet, just times out) in the evening, iPhone wont even download a basic app.

Like I say, used to get fine 1Mbps to 1.25Mbps speeds, low SNR etc. Hell, I used to have Netflix! barely get internet radio now, let alone streaming a film!

If anyone has any suggestions as to how to get on with this, to be honest I feel like just... Maybe better not say that. Its very depressing anyway. Nobody seems to be listening to me, Openreach keep closing the fault saying there's nothing wrong with the line, the Priority Care boy told me 62dB is the ceiling for broadband, and that attenuation will gradually increase over time (yep, 2dB over a couple of weeks sounds about right(!))...

And all Google says is to call the Samaritans, and they cant even help!

Thanks, JF.

You had a modulation of

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

before, is it still the same? There may have been a change to ADSL2+ which on a long line like yours is probably not a good idea. Most reasonable routers let you override this setting.

The 62dB is more FUD, as the 62/63 value is usually just the maximum attenuation routers display. But 71dB attenuation is right at the edge of things working or not.

Unplug all ADSL hardware, and if there is noise when using a corded phone at the test socket, report a noisy telephone line with no mention of broadband,

Edited by MrSaffron (Wed 24-Apr-13 16:27:20)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You had a modulation of

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

before, is it still the same? There may have been a change to ADSL2+ which on a long line like yours is probably not a good idea. Most reasonable routers let you override this setting.

The 62dB is more FUD, as the 62/63 value is usually just the maximum attenuation routers display. But 71dB attenuation is right at the edge of things working or not.

Unplug all ADSL hardware, and if there is noise when using a corded phone at the test socket, report a noisy telephone line with no mention of broadband,

Been there, done that, nobody cares. I spent 2 or 3 months reporting it as a noisy phone line (which it is), every time an Openreach engineer comes out the line tester box says its fine, I explain and demonstrate the problem, they agree its not right, then they either phone the area manager ("can't figure out what's wrong" "does it test ok?" "yes" "close the fault and leave"), or go back to the exchange and replicate the fault before the line leaves the building. (Depending on how long they've been with BT). at which point the good guys tell me its an exchange equipment fault and they'll report it, and the young guys say "bye". The end result is always the same (nothing).

Modulation is still the same. Attenuation has only been changed by one of umpteen engineers trying their best with their hands tied.

JF.

If they aren't fixing a noisy voice line, then they are almost never likely to fix the broadband.
Why? because there is an obligation to provide voice, but no obligation to provide broadband.

It is possible you are just stuck with waiting for your county council to get its BDUK project underway and service you via the 2 Meg USC plan.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If they aren't fixing a noisy voice line, then they are almost never likely to fix the broadband.

Yes they will. Eventually.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

It is possible you are just stuck with waiting for your county council to get its BDUK project underway and service you via the 2 Meg USC plan.

No I'm not.

I haven't been charged for any visit yet, and I fully intend to keep getting engineer visits until they fix it. Even when I've had every man in Scotland here!

One thing is for sure, they are not just getting away with neglecting they're maintenance responsibility for free.

On the other hand, Maybe I could get them to put fibre in, pretty sure it'll only be in the low hundred thousands(!)

JF.

Have you considered involving the CEO? There are a few threads around where people have been stuck with a variety of different long-term problems. A quick email to the CEO's office (search around here for the email address - I don't have the precise one to hand, although I'd know it if I saw it!) often can be more.. motivational for the staff..

In reply to a post by blueacid:

Have you considered involving the CEO? There are a few threads around where people have been stuck with a variety of different long-term problems. A quick email to the CEO's office (search around here for the email address - I don't have the precise one to hand, although I'd know it if I saw it!) often can be more.. motivational for the staff..

http://www.ceoemail.com/

[email protected]

Okey doke, so after a lassie at the Liverpool BT Priority Care call centre got rather aggressively defensive when I tried to explain my problem and how long it had been going on I got quite fed up. But I persevered and eventually got a hold of a different call centre and explained the problem fully and completely to another lassie who assured me that she would boot [censored] to get some movement.

Now whether this new lassie did something or not I cannot say for sure, but the following week on Friday 10/05/13 the phone went off so I went down the road and bumped into a pair of BT guys apparently being the precision testing team. The boy told me he's had several of the previous Openreach engineers have been periodically asking him if he had my job yet for the past couple of months, to which he could only say that he hadn't been assigned the job till a couple of days ago! Anyway the pair of them do their thing for a day and then go home non the wiser, but he left me a voicemail explaining that they would be back but had a big job on somewhere else next week. anyway, they get back the following Thursday and by lunchtime they have found an old GPO bullet junction housing full of water and a woodpecker shaped hole in it! not only this but the cable going in is date marked 1968 with no grease in it. So they tested this stretch and it came back as dodgy probably due to all the water inside it.

Now we just have to wait for the guys to come and replace 300m+ of this cable with nice new 0.9mm cable, so it should actually be almost fixed within a couple of weeks.

However, whilst I accept this is a clear problem and all the rest of it, if it turns out that we still get the ringing noise probably caused by faulty exchange equipment, how do I push ahead to get that fixed? Just they did mention on the Friday that when they switched the line from one place to another in the exchange it cut down dramatically on noise...

Anyway, Just thought I'd give you lads an update, I know you all want to know how its going!

JF.

Progress, we hope! Your next update will be interesting.

Well one month on from the precision tester putting in for 300m cable replacement I phoned BT (on Monday) to gee them up as per his instructions. However since its been such a long time I'm out of the Priority Care system and back to India... Anyway, I don't believe he actually did anything, I told him the cable story and he said he'd report it.

So I then go to town and get a phonecall saying a BT engineer was at the house! I talk to him and explain about the cable etc... He says he'll just do his tests, then chase up the cable and phone me back. When he phones me back he tells me that the hold up on the cable is that BT apparently don't hold stock of 0.9mm cable, so they are waiting on the supplier (possible I suppose). He then gives me a ref number for me to tell TalkTalk(!) if it goes on too long.

Now, Last night my Xbox starts moaning about a MTU error randomly, internet etc is working fine. So some website recommends setting MTU to 1365 to get it to work. I do this, reset router, and it syncs up at 1344kbps!

BTWholesale Speedtest:
Down: 1.09Meg
Up: 0.30Meg
Latency: 43.13ms

So this is back to what it used to be! I even watched LoveFilm Instant with no interruptions! (terrible quality, true, but it worked!)

And the cable hasn't even been replaced yet, so whats happened? Somebody more important complained?

Interesting is the word...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Router stats are more important than speedtest results and I believe Xbox live had some generic problems on Thursday so changing the MTU probably has done nothing to help, and have never had to tweak MTU for xbox live on numerous providers before.