BT 'Unlimited Broadband' Training Period

Hello,

I've just had BT 'Unlimited Broadband' ADSL Internet Connection installed at my flat.

Here are BT's Estimates for my speed:

In reference to www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/broadband/packages?Infinity...:

Estimate download speed = 15Mb
Download speed range = 8.5Mb-18.5Mb

After I plugged in the router yesterday I got speeds of around 14Mbps. Occasionally more and occasionally less. I was even getting downloads upwards of 2MB/s at one point. So a connection speed of 16Mbps+. YAY!
(speeds verified by speedtest.net)

But then three or four hours later... 2.5Mbps...

Now I know that during the training period the speeds are supposed to fluctuate, but I thought this would be by a couple of Mbps... (vary between 12 and 16 Mbps) not by more than 10 Mbps (14Mbps+ down to 2.5)...

My router was switched on at around 11:30 yesterday morning, so I'm still in the first 24 hour "critical" training period (just). I'm at work now, so can't do a speed test, but when I got up this morning, speedtest.net showed a speed of around 3.5Mbps...

Basically I'm just enquiring - is this normal behaviour for a training period? and Will it go back up to 14Mbps+? I wasn't expecting that much fluctuation in speed, and BT reckon my speed should be around 15Mbps (+/- 1 Mbps).

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to even have 3.5Mbps. At my previous house 0.5Mbps was the norm... It's just that I know for a fact that my line is capable of 14Mbps+, so it'd be nice to know that I'll be on that as a constant.

Are you talking about the sync speed, the IP profile, or the download speeds you are measuring?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Are you talking about the sync speed, the IP profile, or the download speeds you are measuring?

I know it's probably not as technical as you would like to hear, but:

I've used speedtest.net for all of my testing. Using the same two servers ("Maidenhead - XILO" and "London - FidoNet") which have returned similar results (but not exactly the same).

I haven't looked at sync speeds on my router yet, and I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to IP profile...

The time I mentioned 2MB/s was in a download for a software update, not measured with speedtest.net, just the "download speed" the program told me it was updating at. All other speeds mentioned were courtesy of the servers mentioned on speedtest.net.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 11:43:02)

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

I know it's probably not as technical as you would like to hear, but:

I've used speedtest.net for all of my testing. Using the same two servers ("Maidenhead - XILO" and "London - FidoNet") which have returned similar results (but not exactly the same).

I have found that those 'speedtest' flash site thingies are rubbish. Try the BBC speed test, gives a much more accurate reading I feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics

Nick

In reply to a post by Lethe:

I have found that those 'speedtest' flash site thingies are rubbish. Try the BBC speed test, gives a much more accurate reading I feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics

Okay, I shall try this when I get home.

But just in case 'speedtest' is right... Is a significant drop (from a high of 16Mbps+ down to 2Mbps) normal during a training period?

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 19:26:10)

In reply to a post by Lethe:

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

I know it's probably not as technical as you would like to hear, but:

I've used speedtest.net for all of my testing. Using the same two servers ("Maidenhead - XILO" and "London - FidoNet") which have returned similar results (but not exactly the same).

I have found that those 'speedtest' flash site thingies are rubbish. Try the BBC speed test, gives a much more accurate reading I feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics

Nick

I think you will find there is a connection between the BBC tester and Ookla - and the Ookla tester is behind Speedtest.net

As for accuracy - it is way out on my connection.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I think you will find there is a connection between the BBC tester and Ookla - and the Ookla tester is behind Speedtest.net

As for accuracy - it is way out on my connection.

This is interesting to know.

I know that these speed testers cannot be relied on to give a completely accurate measurement of connection speeds, but they will give an indication surely?

I mean, like I said... 14-16Mbps to then drop to 2.5Mbps?
I did also notice this with actual download speeds. I was downloading all sorts of updates throughout the day, with things downloading nice and fast (usually around 1.4 to 2MB/s) then dropping to 200KB/s and staying there for the rest of the day into this morning.

My apologies in sounding a bit impatient, but no-one has really answered the main question here... Is a connection likely to fluctuate that much during the training period?

The router sync speed and the IP profile will together set your maximum download speed. you should see what they are set to.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The router sync speed and the IP profile will together set your maximum download speed. you should see what they are set to.

Okay cool. I know where to find sync speeds, so will update you later, but will I find IP profile on the router too? (BT Homehub 3)

And, even if these two are working against each other, are they likely to let my connection go back up to full speed again?

The BBC gives around 15Mbps for mine - whereas it is capable of in excess of 60Mbps - that is not a reasonable indication.

As for te fluctuations - it should not, but until your stats are visible it is difficult to give a definitive answer.

They can give an indication, but should only be used if you CANNOT access the routers statistics.

As a measure of throughput - i.e. what you can push across the connection, their usefulness varies according to the algorithm used.

Ookla tends to favour a burst of speed, and can be fooled sometimes to give beyond sync speed results.

My apologies in sounding a bit impatient, but no-one has really answered the main question here... Is a connection likely to fluctuate that much during the training period?

Thoughput which is what the speedtests are giving you will fluctuate based on all the other factors beyond your connection, so yes normal for them to vary.

During the training there is not a magical try 16 Mbps for 6 hours, then 14 for 6 hours and back to 15 hours. The speed the modem syncs at the first time is usually the highest you see, and if lots of errors are seen then it will be slowed down to reduce the errors.

You NEED to look at router stats if you want to worry about the speeds during training - which really never ends, but has usually settled on a rough speed if the line is fairly stable within a day or two.

The IP profile is held in the BT system. To see it, you have to run a diagnostic speedtest at http://speedtest.btwholesale.com or use the utility here http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

Okay, that's good to know. Thanks for the info.

I will post the info as soon as I have a chance to look (once I get home from work).

Will my router give me all this info? (IP Profile)

I think I may just copy and paste the entirety of the info that I can find and let you guys analyse with your expert eyes. (I believe it details attenuation and everything).

[edit]

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The IP profile is held in the BT system. To see it, you have to run a diagnostic speedtest at http://speedtest.btwholesale.com or use the utility here http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

Okay, that's great. I'll do that tonight
[/edit]

[further edit]
on the speedtest.btwholesale.com webpage, after it's checked my speed do I need to "run further diagnostics" or is the Download + Upload + Ping speed my IP profile?
[/further edit]

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 13:36:40)

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

on the speedtest.btwholesale.com webpage, after it's checked my speed do I need to "run further diagnostics"

Yeah, that's the one

You need to run further diagnostics

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

on the speedtest.btwholesale.com webpage, after it's checked my speed do I need to "run further diagnostics"

Yeah, that's the one

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You need to run further diagnostics

Okay. I'll post a whole load of info on here later, both from my router (sync etc.) and the diagnostics page on btwholesale after I've run that.

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

Here are BT's Estimates for my speed:

These are estimates of your connection speed as measured by your router.

You have been measuring speeds by speedtests. That is no good; they fluctuate during the day and dependent on other network traffic and will not be in line with BT's estimates.

To discover whether you are getting what you have been promised, you need to monitor your router stats.

nothing actually happens in the training period, apart from an electronic clerk taking a note of the minimum speed you sync at. That's it. It's the most overstated myth about broadband.

So if the throughput is all over the place you need to establish if the sync speed is stable (from the router) and that the IP profile is sensible for the sync speed.

The story goes like this :-

1. The DSLAM has a target SNR margin and agrees a sync speed with the modem/router to get as close to this target as they can.

2. The sync speed determines the IP profile, which should be ~88% of sync

3. The actual IP throughput you see in a download or speed test will be influenced by how busy the exchange and ISP connections are, and the site you're accessing.

4. If the line is unstable the DLM system can add interleaving and increase the target SNR mrgin used in 1, often reducing speed to improve stability.

Okay. I've run the various checks etc.

BT speedtest.btwholesale.com gives:

In reference to speedtest.btwholesale.com/:

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Max Achievable Speed = 21Mbps

Download speedachieved during the test was - 2.63 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4 Mbps-21 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 15.69 Mbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Max Achievable Speed = 0.83Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.9Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.83 Mbps

The test result has indicated that you should contact your ISP for further assistance.

Router is showing:

In reference to BT Homehub 3:

ADSL Line Status

Connection Information

Line state: Connected
Connection time: 1 days, 05:55:53
Downstream: 17.37 Mbps
Upstream: 1.133 Mbps

ADSL Settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 5.4 dB / 6.4 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 20.4 dB / 11.3 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 20.1 dBm / 11.7 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 5730521 / 33

And I am still receiving fairly low download speeds...

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 18:11:49)

You are connecting at good sync speeds and well above BT's estimate.

But for some reason your throughput is far too low.

Are you doing these test using wireless or wired? Wireless can be very variable.

EDIT: In answer to your original Q: Your throughput has nowt to do with any training period (or BT's speed estimate).

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 12-Mar-13 18:46:48)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You are connecting at good sync speeds and well above BT's estimate.

But for some reason your throughput is far too low.

Are you doing these test using wireless or wired? Wireless can be very variable.

Currently wired, via Cat 5e Cable plugged into the port labelled "GigE" on the Homehub (assuming all other ports are 100Mb as opposed to 1Gb, unless I've misread the labelling and they're all GigE...).

Although receiving similar if not same results through wireless configuration (such as mobile phone) as well.

[edit] Although, I AM still in the training period like I suggested. Don't know if this would realistically be the cause? [/edit]

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 18:54:52)

No, see my previous Edit.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

No, see my previous Edit.

Ah right. Yes.

Well then... What is going on? Haha. I don't want to be stuck on 2.5Mbps for the rest of my life knowing I'm only half a mile from my local exchange and only 50m from my nearest cabinet...

You could try plugging into a different port on the HH3.

While you're at it, would you mind editing this post as the sig is messing up my Firefox Format? http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4220159-b...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You could try plugging into a different port on the HH3.

While you're at it, would you mind editing this post as the sig is messing up my Firefox Format? http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4220159-b...

Hi again,

Plugged into a different port as you suggested. No difference at all. Speed is still around 2.5Mbps (although I actually just got 3.5 on the last test).

Real world download speeds are at 100KB/s at the moment. (90 to 130) although peaked at 190KB/s for a second...

And BatBoy... Erm, I "edited" the post, but can't do anything about the sig I'm afraid, it won't let me change that.

Ah well, no matter - thanks for trying

I can only imagine BT are controlling the throughput somehow, you might try re-setting the modem using a pin in the reset hole, but other than that you'll probably have to wait a couple of days.

In reference to BT HH3:

ADSL Line Status

Connection Information

Line state: Connected
Connection time: 1 days, 07:31:07
Downstream: 17.37 Mbps
Upstream: 1.133 Mbps

ADSL Settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 5.1 dB / 6.5 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 20.4 dB / 11.3 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 20.1 dBm / 11.7 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 6070115 / 33
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 15604536 / 27
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 113741 / 21

Just noticed you can click to get "More Details" and my Error Seconds are worrying me... They seem rather... High? But I don't know what they actually are, so possibly not too bad?

Also, just found out that the "FEC", "CRC", and "HEC", are all error loggers too?
What's going on? ......

Yes, ES are too high; about 1 per sec, assuming router hard booted 31.5 hours ago. Would not expect more than 1 ES per min on Fast Path.

Try plugging into hidden test socket and re-measure & monitor.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Yes, ES are too high; about 1 per sec, assuming router hard booted 31.5 hours ago. Would not expect more than 1 ES per min on Fast Path.

Try plugging into hidden test socket and re-measure & monitor.

Yeah, that would work out actually... One error per second... AHhh! What's happening?

Thing is, I'm worried because I've been previously warned not to turn off router or disconnect it from the line at all because it could muck up my "training period" even though I've since been told that the "training period" is a myth... *shrugs*

So, to reset & try test socket? or not to reset & try test socket...

(Also, I don't actually have any other equipment / lines... I only have the one phone socket. The BT master socket).

Do you have a phone, sky box, anything like that connected to the phone socket?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Do you have a phone, sky box, anything like that connected to the phone socket?

I have filter connected to BT socket, and then both router and phone plugged into that filter.

I've just tried unplugging the phone but it's made no difference. Still getting one error per second

I have another filter I could try in case it's the filter... But it worked fine to begin with?...

Is it wise to unplug the router from the phone socket or power whilst in training period? (only been connected 1 day and 8 hours out of the 10 days I've been told to leave my hub connected for).

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 20:22:50)

Just restarted router (a crime, I know), also used "reset" button, and plugged in new filter, directly to test socket.
(All in one sweep).

Still getting one Error Second per second... (already on 70 and the Connection time was only on 1:04, so actually it's more than one error second per second that the router has been connected for????????????)

In reference to HH3:

ADSL Line Status

Connection Information

Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:02:30
Downstream: 16.74 Mbps
Upstream: 1.113 Mbps

ADSL Settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.1 dB / 6.7 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 20.1 dB / 11.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 20.2 dBm / 11.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 7865 / 65
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 6326 / 18
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 152 / 0

Do you have another modem you can try?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Do you have another modem you can try?

Well, I could possibly / maybe borrow one from my parents for perhaps 30 minutes... But I wouldn't know what details to use to log in?... My homehub uses my phone number to authenticate the broadband... Not a login or anything...

Do you suspect fault with homehub?

Yes, I binned mine when it kept on slowing down my connection. The login is usually [email protected] with no password if you're on a residential connection.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes, I binned mine when it kept on slowing down my connection. The login is usually [email protected] with no password if you're on a residential connection.

I will attempt to borrow a router from someone for tomorrow then.
So I literally just put in the same login to a normal router as is in the homehub and it still authenticates using my phone number?... That's cool.

What's your operating system, out of interest ? If it's XP there may be some things to look at regarding throughput, though the errors may be a bigger problem.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

What's your operating system, out of interest ? If it's XP there may be some things to look at regarding throughput, though the errors may be a bigger problem.

Windows 7.

Throughput is same / similar on all devices...
Pc (Win 7, wired), Laptop (Win 7, wireless), Xbox 360, iPhone. Etc.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Mar-13 21:38:50)

didn't know BT were using phone numbers on home hub logins, whetever they use on a home hub will work in any modem / router - it's just passed to a RADIUS server to let you connect.

It's surprising DLM has NOT switched it to Interleaved with so many errors.

Unless it's a router fault and DLM is ignorant of them.

Good idea to try another router.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 12-Mar-13 22:02:58)

In reply to a post by yarwell:

didn't know BT were using phone numbers on home hub logins, whetever they use on a home hub will work in any modem / router - it's just passed to a RADIUS server to let you connect.

I was simply told that rather than each customer having their own username / password to log in to broadband via a router, BT worked a system where everyone has the same username, and your service is authenticated via your phone number / line?...

I'm currently attempting to source a router so I can test this theory out.

They mean authenticates via the physical line rather than an number entered into the router

Indeed.

So, when I got home yesterday I did a speed test to find out what my speed was (obviously) And I got 4Mbps... (higher than 2.5 eh?)

Then just before bed I got around 6Mbps...

And now this morning I'm getting 10-14...

Router is still throwing up errors, but internet is noticeably faster / more responsive. Will keep you updated as the day goes on.

Edited by deleted (Wed 13-Mar-13 07:34:49)

In reply to a post by Matthew32:

I was simply told that rather than each customer having their own username / password to log in to broadband via a router, BT worked a system where everyone has the same username, and your service is authenticated via your phone number / line?...

Aha, so the authentication remains via the usual username common to most users. Gotcha.

It isn't strictly "authenticated by your phone number" but obviously the kit knows which line is in which port etc. Talk Talk appear to be ignoring usernames altogether on their LLU.

It has been commented by a BT user that the "common" username is also ignored.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It has been commented by a BT user that the "common" username is also ignored.

Well, I've just sourced a netgear router to try out if the BT one doesn't sort itself out.

If the common username is ignored then how on earth do I connect using a new router? Just plug it in with fingers-crossed?...

The username may be ignored but the domain isn't. Just use [email protected] with no or any password - some routers insist on a password...

... although [email protected] I think is the actual one... you'll see it in the homehub!

Edited by deleted (Wed 13-Mar-13 10:14:17)

I'm still in the ten day "training" period, so all could change...BUT

My conclusion for-now is that my speed has settled, and I believe I now have my final speed. Error seconds on router have also dramatically reduced. I now get more like 4 error seconds every 30 seconds (as opposed to before where I would have got 30+), and I believe the number of error seconds is still falling. So I do believe the previous speed reduction really was just due to my line settling and "training".

Last night when I got home and did a speed test I was getting 14.82Mbps download... Almost zero fluctuation... and when it did fluctuate it only did so by 0.04Mbps... (14.78 to 14.86)... speed test graph was a flat line almost all the way across.

This morning I woke up and did two tests half an hour apart. One downloaded at 14.83 and one downloaded at 14.82.

Aside from the speedtest graph, I download the latest Battlefield 3 update at a blistering 2.4MB/s yesterday (pointing to nearer 20Mbps) verified by the fact that the download of over 4GB's of data was complete in just half an hour (35 minutes).

So... One line conclusion?;

It was all due to line training...

(I'll post again after the ten day period has officially ended just to really finalise that this is my final speed)

You NEVER have your final speeds, even in two years your speeds can go up or down.

All that is set now is a figure is in a database that can be used to judge faults against. The dance of changing noise margins, interleaving and banding will continue.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You NEVER have your final speeds, even in two years your speeds can go up or down.

All that is set now is a figure is in a database that can be used to judge faults against. The dance of changing noise margins, interleaving and banding will continue.

Well of course it won't stay the same forever... The speed depends on a lot of variants... But if we're talking about the speed in relation to the 2Mbps slump that I dipped in to, I think we can call this "final"... And in relation to the "ten day training period" that BT talk of.

Matthew - I'm thinking of moving to BT as the current offer looks tempting so I'm interested in your experience. I'm not clear if you are still using the BT HomeHub or your own? Appreciate any updates on this thread.

In reply to a post by zhango:

Matthew - I'm thinking of moving to BT as the current offer looks tempting so I'm interested in your experience. I'm not clear if you are still using the BT HomeHub or your own? Appreciate any updates on this thread.

I'm using the Homehub 3 still.

It's giving some good speeds. I've currently got 13.2Mbps showing up on my speedtest.

Just today though, BT updated their website to show that I can now get BT Infinity!
Haha. Only 4 days after I got regular ADSL installed.

Will see if they can do a weekend install, if not then I'll be waiting a longggg time, lol.

Yes they can, but you may have to be patient.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes they can, but you may have to be patient.

I can wait a month or two. I've only just got normal internet! haha.

Haven't you signed up for the 18 month contract with a penalty for leaving early?

In reply to a post by zhango:

Haven't you signed up for the 18 month contract with a penalty for leaving early?

No penalty for staying with BT (Changing to Infinity from normal ADSL)...