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Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 05-Apr-13 16:27:46
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Sky email SNAFU


[link to this post]
 
Having been slightly aghast at seeing Sky switch to Yahoo from Google for email, today's chaos isn't a shock.

BT Yahoo's POP3 service is as reliable as an unreliable thing, so news that "Many UK customers of Sky are being deluged with thousands of old and deleted messages as the company switches email providers" sounded painfully familiar.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 05-Apr-13 20:43:47
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Shows how much people can trust Google. Deleted emails should be deleted - maybe stored as some do for a few days but after that deleted completely. But Google has kept them all, and I wonder if they have retained copies for their own use too?

.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 20:58:16
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Depends how Google supplied the emails, and how Yahoo asked for them. If they were in the form of backups, probably the easiest way of supplying such material, then it is quite possible for deleted emails to reappear if they weren't restored sensibly. Nothing sinister on the part of Google, but possible incompetence from Yahoo (and/or Sky).


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 05-Apr-13 21:40:05
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
But "thousands" for individual customers? That's not a "backup", that's an archive that hasn't been declared/recognised as such.

Exactly the sort of reason I would never want to use gmail for personal stuff. What worries me more is the indexes it has on the content, and will no doubt have retained even after transfer of the service to yahoo.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
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Edited by RobertoS (Fri 05-Apr-13 21:41:50)

Standard User Lethe
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:19:50
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
And surely *delete* means delete.

The Internet is all going to pot IMHO.

Nick
Standard User billford
(elder) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:26:55
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
And surely *delete* means delete.
Not usually- it's just marked as free space on the HDD, the data is still there. Has been ever since before DOS days, hence "undelete" programs.

And even if you over-write it, it's still in the backup... that's the whole point of taking backups!

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.________________Planes and Boats and ... _____________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User Lethe
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:45:54
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Who's talking about backups?

If a user deletes an email it should be deleted? Yes or no?

This was a recovery from backup was it? No. It was a migration of some sort that bugg3red up big time and shows what isn't deleted (and kept) when the user asked it to be.

Nick
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:46:14
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Do these "deleted" emails include those that had been POP3'ed and not left on server?

Those should have been deleted from server immediately the client read them.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User billford
(elder) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:46:36
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
That's not a "backup", that's an archive that hasn't been declared/recognised as such.
A backup is an archive... I think you'd have problems coming up with definitions that distinguished them satisfactorily. The only real difference is the age of what's in them.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.________________Planes and Boats and ... _____________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User billford
(elder) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:53:01
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
Who's talking about backups?
AEP, and I agree with him that it's the most likely way the transfer was done.
If a user deletes an email it should be deleted? Yes or no?
Yes from the live data set, No from the backup. If push came to shove, I'd hope my email provider could retrieve an important email that I'd accidentally deleted.
This was a recovery from backup was it? No. It was a migration of some sort that bugg3red up big time and shows what isn't deleted (and kept) when the user asked it to be.
Read AEP's post that I linked to, and my first comment in this one. How would you have done it, a mass "forward"? Restoring from a backup is by far the easiest way to do such a thing.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.________________Planes and Boats and ... _____________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 07:57:06
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Not knowing how Sky email was set up, in particular for those experiencing problems, it's difficult to make a more detailed comment. It is not inevitable that downloading and deleting emails from a mail server results in their deletion on the server. Client settings may affect this.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 07:58:45
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Agreed. Who knows how long Google keep backups for (should we berate them if it's a long time?) or what Yahoo requested. All available backups? That would make sense.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 08:00:35
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
"Delete" hardly ever means "delete" on a computer! On an email system it usually means "delete from this client". I would be in a right mess if deleting an email from one client meant it was deleted from all of my mail clients and from the mail servers.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 08:02:56
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
How would you migrate mailboxes (without destroying existing ones mid-migration)? Having dealt with exactly this situation (server to server rather than between ISPs) I used existing backups.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 08:06:20
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Not only the easiest, but the most secure. You can set up the new mailbox, and ensure it is working, whilst the old one is still functioning. Then you do a much smaller, and quicker, migration of any new emails since that process.

You don't do a migration of this sort with a "big bang" approach (not if you expect to still have a job next week).
Standard User billford
(elder) Sat 06-Apr-13 08:58:04
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
You can set up the new mailbox, and ensure it is working, whilst the old one is still functioning.
That's the theory, it seems that someone forgot about the bit I've italicised tongue

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.________________Planes and Boats and ... _____________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User undecidedadrian
(member) Sat 06-Apr-13 09:28:32
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
And surely *delete* means delete.

The Internet is all going to pot IMHO.

Nick


Not really, looking at most email clients (outlook, thunderbird etc) the delete folder needs to emptied either manually or automatically.

As for the whole issue of "thousands" of emails people don't seem to realise how many emails they get as they can be collected several times a day.

I keep a 30 day cache of my pop box just in case I need to roll back my windows install and in there there is over 1000 mails,

If somebody has been using IMAP or not configured their POP box correctly I would expect somebody to get tens of thousands of mails in their delete folder.

Is Google really charging that much more than Yahoo for Sky to want to make the move as it is the 2nd time they have moved their mail service since they started,
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 06-Apr-13 09:59:53
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
And surely *delete* means delete.

The Internet is all going to pot IMHO.

Nick



Not in Google's dictionary. To them it means that the user does not want to see it , but is willing to let Google own it and do what they will with the content.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 06-Apr-13 10:49:10
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Or you set up new accounts and give users the option to move stuff across or not.

Or don't import the old emails into plain Inbox, but a legacy folder.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 06-Apr-13 11:02:20
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
depends on what they mean by "deleted" - Gmail has a "Bin" that emails you delete from web or IMAP go into, haven't tried POP3 and don't know if Sky's implementation was the same as full Gmail.

in:trash in the search box of Gmail shows them up - if I was asked to transfer all email from an account to a new provider I would send everything including the trash / bin / deleted items - I've been burned before by end users "storing" things in the trash.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 11:05:38
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Given the choice most users, in my experience, want a migration that means the minimum work for them. So a migration that preserves their existing emails and folders is the ideal. Anything that involves having two systems live at the same time is likely to confuse some.

Having had to migrate thousands of users from one email system to another, and from one server operating system to another, I find that it is very difficult to please all the people all the time. In the current situation I would say that it was more likely that the fault lies with Sky/Yahoo than with Google.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 06-Apr-13 11:07:02
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
If a user deletes an email it should be deleted? Yes or no?


Moved to Trash / Deleted Items / Bin is the modern day interpretation of "delete"

You then have to "empty deleted items" or the like to do what I suspect you want to happen.

My Gmail Bin has 300 items from the last 2 weeks, and I know it's there and empty it.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 11:08:06
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Users are certainly likely to be less happy with material disappearing unexpectedly than with "deleted" stuff reappearing. Of course, users are never truely happy whatever happens.
Standard User leexgx
(member) Sun 07-Apr-13 18:47:40
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Re: Sky email SNAFU


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
i guess users are not aware that on google mail unless you change the default settings pop3 does not delete the email from the server unless you go onto the google mail or sky mail as it is and change the setting

so when sky moved all the mail from Google to yahoo, all mail gets re-downloaded again if using pop3 as the mail is now on yahoo servers

only other issue now is all sky users can now be used to spam any one due to an hole in yahoo network still ( http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/03/06/despite-its... ,ignore comments from users who have had accounts stolen/locked as more likely they have given there password away somewhere)

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