Strange broadband fault

Hope someone can help with this as it has persisted for almost 3 years on and off and I can't find anyone else with the same problem.

We have BT broadband and live in a rural area so both the line and connection speed are poor. Line is allegedly rated up to 2 mbps, but we usually get around 0.5mb.

We get frequent line problems with a very noisy line, but this is intermittent (at best can go several months without a problem) and BT have never been able to find a fault, just say that the line is old and nothing will really improve until it's replaced, which is probably won't every be.

When we get the noise the broadband connection drops. We can get it back only one way, by dialling a number, usually 1471 so that we can stay connected long enough, usually around 40 seconds, for the broadband to re-connect. This isn't a one-off. It works every time, but only long enough until the line goes noisy again and the connection goes which can be anything from a few minutes to a day.

BT say there is no problem with a broadband connection that can be helped by dialling a number, but this has worked hundreds of times for us. If we don't dial a number the connection stays flashing orange. If we dial a number and stay on the line it comes back to blue - it's not a coincidence.

Currently getting around 0.3mbps again as every time the line has problems the broadband speed drops permanently until BT turn it up again. Best we have ever had on a reasonably steady connection is 0.9mbps. BT did turn it up to 2mb once, but the line couldn't cope.

We have called BT dozens of times in the last 3 years or so and nothing gets done. They don't recognise any problem yet accept there is one.

Everything is the house has been checked (no extensions, router in master socket which has been upgraded so it doesn't need a filter) and replaced so they know it's an external fault, but can't sort it. Now they are threatening to charge over £100 if we call them out again, but we still have a problem. If we had an alternative I'd leave them like a shot, but whoever we use the line is still BT's.

Any thoughts gratefully appreciated.

That's a High Open or High Resistance fault.

Thanks. No idea what that means, but it's a better answer than any of the dozen or so BT engineers we have had out!

At least I have something to look up and work on when I ring them next

What are the connection speed, attenuation and noise margin figures from your router

Hi. Not sure - how would I test that? I can get simple speed tests, though BT's test said the line was too slow for it to work!

Edit. Hopefully here? Line has improved a little since the last cut-off about an hour ago,

ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:55:43
Downstream: 704 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.0 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 58.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 16.6 dBm / 12.5 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 888914 / 15
CRC Events (Down/Up): 771 / 18

Edited by deleted (Sun 18-Aug-13 22:52:55)

Line noise together with the HO/HR symptoms should give the engineers enough to go on to at least recognise a fault exists.Your phone line should be silent, after all.

I had exactly this. Twice!

I reported it the first time, and they ended up changing my connection at the cabinet to a different pair from there to the exchange. That fixed it for a while, but it also caused me a permanent loss of about 700kbps from my previous ~6500kbps.

Talking to the engineer, and confirmed by a few others seen at the cabinet since, I found out that the cable(s) from it to the exchange are in a really bad state. Even connecting a new phone subscriber, or swapping to a different pair like was done for me, takes them an age. Phone mind you - never mind broadband.

They sit there talking to base, and get three unused lines suggested. They test them, no good. Another three please. And so on and so on.

It started up again, and gradually got worse, until it was more than once a day on average. I used to use the Quiet Line Test, 17070 Option 2, as although ringing anything fixed it almost straight away, I needed to keep the call going for 5-10 minutes to make it stick.

Fortunately it didn't affect my connection speeds as I was on O2 LLU, that doesn't have the BT Wholesale DLM.

I waited as long as possible, as I didn't want an even slower pair. Then I was lucky and FTTC became available, cutting out that that section of cable for the broadband. So I went for it. Fine ever since, and never notice any phone line noise either.

That option may not be available or practicable for you though .

Looks slower than it should be and the errors show line is noisy.

The diagnosis of a high resistance fault sound reasonable. They can be difficult to fix but engineers have tools to help

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Line noise together with the HO/HR symptoms should give the engineers enough to go on to at least recognise a fault exists.Your phone line should be silent, after all.

Thanks

The problem is every time they test the line it's 'fine'. The noise is intermittent and we have never yet managed to get an engineer out at the same time as the noise.....

You have said that it is generally cleared by dialling a number etc.

Do you literally have to do that; and hear the Ring Tone, plus possibly have to wait for the other phone to be answered; or is it cleared earlier in the sequence, such as when you first hear Dial Tone or key the first digit etc?

Do Incoming Calls have any effect, from when your phone first rings through to when you "hang up"?

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

You have said that it is generally cleared by dialling a number etc.

Do you literally have to do that; and hear the Ring Tone, plus possibly have to wait for the other phone to be answered; or is it cleared earlier in the sequence, such as when you first hear Dial Tone or key the first digit etc?

Do Incoming Calls have any effect, from when your phone first rings through to when you "hang up"?

Hi. We just have to get a dial tone long enough for the broadband to re-connect. Usually just pressing the button to get a dial tone doesn't give us long enough before the phone cuts the tone off so we dial 1471. The phone doesn't need to be answered. Usually around 30 or 40 seconds continuous dial tone is enough, though sometimes it's longer.

Incoming calls don't usually cause a problem, but do sometimes cut off the broadband if the line is especially noisy, but the broadband usually comes back during the call.

The fault sounds like moisture in a joint along the line somewhere and when you dial 1471 the extra current dries out the joint sufficiently to give you a connection. Have you noticed if the fault characteristics change with the weather?

In reply to a post by E7er:

The fault sounds like moisture in a joint along the line somewhere and when you dial 1471 the extra current dries out the joint sufficiently to give you a connection. Have you noticed if the fault characteristics change with the weather?

Haven't really noticed a link with the weather, but we have had some heavy thunderstorms in the last few weeks prior to this latest round of noisy line/disconnections so you are almost certainly right. Will keep an eye on it in future.

I should have added that you should try to record the noise, a Telephone Answering Machine probably being the most convenient.

I did this about 20 years back; and got transferred to another local exchange in about four days, after a few months of problems, that BT could not locate.

I rang BT this morning after a dozen or so broadband disconnections in an hour, all of which only came back by keeping the telephone line almost permanently on. They are monitoring it for 24 hours, but couldn't find a fault even though I could barely hear the BT guy, and him me, for the line noise.

The connection, typically, has been pretty stable since. Sometimes being on the phone a long time - 1/2 an hour with BT, temporarily 'heals' the broadband for a day or so.

They are ringing be back tomorrow. Before I speak to them, the actual speed of use of the broadband has been awful today with many websites timing out as the connection is so poor. Even when the test is showing 0.8mbps, in can take up to a minute to get a page to load properly - feels like dial up.

When I run a speed test we are getting speeds varying between .3mbps and .99mbps during the test, with an average of around 0.8mbps, which is pretty good for here. Mind you, the results can vary hugely within a few minutes and the speed is never settled at any time during the test.

The surfing experience doesn't reflect that sort of speed though. Normally the upload speed is around 0.3mbps, but today it's constantly around 0.011mbps. Is this the reason for the slow connection and should I mention this to BT? Ping varies between around 500ms and 1700ms which I understand is quite slow. Is that another factor?

Keep on mind that the various measurements you mention, eg Ping, Downlioad Speed, Upload Speed etc, are almost certainly a RESULT of the Line Conditions - NOT the Cause/s.

It is useful that the BT guy heard the Line Noise etc, so assuming you noted his name, you have a degree of confirmation.

However, try recording it as well, preferably when attempting to talk to BT.

Particularly with E7er's suggestion of dampness, take a good look at your end of the phone line, from where-ever it is accessible etc, inwards to your house and internally around your house.

Try spraying any joints with WD 40 and/or Silicone Grease.

Slightly slacken any screw connections (ancient termination blocks) before spraying, to allow penetration, then screw up tightly.

Keep in mind that if it is Dampness, the gaps between the terminations need treatment as well.

If any joints or connectors are in an exposed position, whether internal or external, try to provide some protection.

Disconnect any plug/socket connections, clean if possible; and spray both plug and socket before re-connecting, including some some slight pushing/pulling to help establish good connections.

If the final BT cabling is by overhead line, try to examine it, possibly using binoculars; and particularly where it passes through any trees, vegetation etc.

==============================

Assuming BTO is using a TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer = Pocket Radar Set), to check your line, the one I was experienced in using could not distinguish between a fault close to the far end of the line and the normal far end termination of that line, unless the fault was an Open Circuit or virtually a Short Circuit.

"Partial" Shorts such as caused by dampness look very like normal equipment; and are only identifiable as such if they are some distance away within the known line distance.

Fir example, my line is recorded as being 1,286 metres long. I would anticipate a partial short definitely not being distinguishable if it was within the last 6 metres.

ON the other hand, if the partial short were within the main length of the line, it would stand out, like the proverbial "sore thumb".

Thanks. BT have checked all the internal wiring and pronounced it fine. Main socket has been replaced and also the wiring from the pole to the house as well as the connector on the wall, in the last 12 months. BT didn't ring back as promised, no surprise.

Does the fault continue to occur?

Or has some of the BTO work been in the past week or so?

If the fault is continuing, that seems to place the fault back towards or in the Exchange; or just possibly in your router.

Try unplugging the router from the phone line when the noise occurs.

And progressively any other equipment from their phone line connections.

Hi. Just an update and to say thanks. Hopefully things might be sorted, though I won't count my chickens.....

BT engineer turned up today - wasn't expecting anyone, but not a problem. As usual all his test showed up o.k. except for a slight noise on the line test which was still within acceptable parameters. By the time he came, of course, the line noise had gone and the broadband had been mostly stable for 24 hours or so. Sync speed with the exchange was 1.1mbps.

This time, armed with the info from the forum I was able to get him to look a bit deeper, rather than just sign things off as 'no fault', which is what usually happens. In fairness, he knew there was a fault, just couldn't trace anything when the line wasn't noisy.

He went to the exchange and checked there and found no problems, but on the way back checked a junction about 300m up the road. In that junction our wire was joined simply by twisting the bits of wire together instead of with a connector and had a bit of gaffer tape around it. The whole joint was soaking wet. He reckoned that the rain yesterday got it damp, which helped the connection today as it would have carried the current better. Because the joint was so rubbish he thinks that when it dries out we get the problems. This is pretty much what you have all said on the forum.

Any how, he replaced the twisted wire connection with a connector and cleaned it all up. He didn't have a proper waterproof connector with him, but will do that in the morning.

When he checked things again, the line noise was completely gone and our sync speed with the exchange had increased to 2.6mbps. He is hopeful that the broadband speed should catch up shortly and we 'ought to get around 2mbps'. If we do that will be a major success - we haven't ever really had more than 0.8mbps to 1mbps and that rarely. Average has been around 0.5mbps.

Fingers crossed and thanks again for all the help. I'm sure the knowledge you gave me made the difference.

It sounds very like a line noise problem I had about 1990.

Although it was agreed that there was noise on the line (Dial-up of course), the BT lad could not immediately find the cause in the "obvious places".

The cabinet is directly across the road, its exchange cable going past the side of my house.

But it transpired that the line from the cabinet to my house takes a very different route, proceeding about 50 yards eastwards, crossing the road somewhere on its travels, to a small junction box at the far side of another house, with more joints, before returning westwards to my house.

Thus taking about 125 yards or more, to cover 25 yards.

This junction box is very small, about 1 foot high by about 2 inches wide and 2 inches front-to-back, "PO Telephones" or similar cast in to its front face.

Re-making the joints in that cleared the problem.

There is a very similar box outside a pub in town; but it is the electricity supply to the pub, as it has SSEB cast on the front face.

======================

Please keep us posted of any continuation of the problem, as it is a particularly interesting one.

Morning Milamber

A friend has drawn my attention to this series of postings, particularly #15 (presently second from end)-

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/forums/showthre...

Incidentally, subject to the intermittency and degree of "your" fault, I would have expected it to show up separately on a TDR test, given the significant distance from your house.

Can anyone supplement with a description of present-day test gear used by BTO in such circumstances; or is it back to the days of the Wheatstone Bridge?

Just another update.

BT engineer came back out on Saturday as promised and connected the wires properly with the right connector. He also managed to swap our line back to the exchange. Even connected properly he said the resistance was quite high on the line and that made our actual 3.5km from the exchange more like 4.5km.

Came back and tested the line - completely quiet and we now had a sync speed of 4.5mbps with the exchange, up from 1.1mbps before the fault was fixed.

No broadband speed increase yesterday, but this morning we are all over the place a bit, but testing at around 4.5mbps! Did get 14mbps briefly, but guess that was an aberration......

Really pleased with the result as 0.8mbps has been just about the best we have had and we have gone several weeks at a time at no better than dial up, but a bit annoyed that it has taken 3 years and hours and hours on the phone and with engineers all failing to find anything wrong to get to this point.

Thanks again for the help and advice. Not sure we would have this result without it.

Certainly quite an improvement.

I suggest you now try the BE BRAS Test and post the results, particularly the distance and whether you can reasonably relate that to both the point-to-point (crow's path) and the likely actual duct/wire (road) distance.

http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

My own results-


Enter landline number:

The current Downstream BRAS rate is: 16.78 Mbps
The current Upstream BRAS rate is: 0.83 Mbps

Data For: xxxxxxxxxx
Exchange: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
BT Recorded Line Length to Exchange (m): 1286
BE LLU: Activated
Real Error: Migration code required for this number

==========================================

Incidentally, we had a major power failure in town on Saturday.

When the supply returned about 40 minutes later, there was a significant increase in my BB connections.

The Signal to Noise Ratio improved to about 3.6 dB compared to around 6.8 to 7.5 previously;

and the Download Speed improved to around 15,5 to 16.5 Mbps, compared to 14.2 to 15.2 previously.

The Upload speed also showed a marginal improvement.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Incidentally, we had a major power failure in town on Saturday.

When the supply returned about 40 minutes later, there was a significant increase in my BB connections.

The Signal to Noise Ratio improved to about 3.6 dB compared to around 6.8 to 7.5 previously;

and the Download Speed improved to around 15,5 to 16.5 Mbps, compared to 14.2 to 15.2 previously.

The Upload speed also showed a marginal improvement.

That sounds like you are on the gaming profile. A simple reconnection at any time would have done the same, as that has a 3.5dB sync-time setting. The 6.8dB area would be because of a re-sync for some reason at a noisy time.

Very glad to hear you are getting somewhere at last, thanks to the folks on this great site -- the best place I know to find help

Evening RobertoS

Thanks for the information about the Gaming level; but the welcome improvement has never occurred previously, since receiving the Bright Box in 22nd June 2012, with several reboots in the intervening period, probably averaging about once per month.

I note the Bright Box parameters in a spreadsheet, at irregular intervals, now having 52 sets of records (Excel column M to Column CL inclusive, CL being after Saturday's enforced reboot).

Excluding that last set, the following summarises the 14 months records in that area-

Best Average Worst Median
5.1 6.2 9.3 6.1 Down Noise margin (dB) :
24.0 24.3 25.0 24.0 Down Attenuation (dB) :
5.6 7.2 10.8 7.2 Up Noise margin (dB) :
11.3 11.5 11.9 11.5 Up Attenuation (dB) :

Including that improvement-

Best Average Worst Median
3.8 6.2 9.3 6.1 Down Noise margin (dB) :
24.0 24.3 25.0 24.0 Down Attenuation (dB) :
5.6 7.2 10.8 7.2 Up Noise margin (dB) :
11.3 11.5 11.9 11.5 Up Attenuation (dB) :

It may be as you suggest, a "gaming profile"; but none of our PCs are used for gaming or other intensive activities such as film or TV downloading; nor have I ever requested such facilities.

It may be that I was lucky that the reboot occurred quickly after the power returned, before there was much competition from others, cross-talk etc.

I am continuing to monitor the improvement, using BTW and TBB frequently; and checking the Bright Box stats about twice per day, without recording them.

Presently they are-

Noise Margin 5.8 dB 3.7 dB
Line Attenuation 11.8 dB 25.0 dB

Long may it last!

I got confused because of you using the BE BRAS checker. I assumed you were on Be LLU.

So my post was junk .

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

The Upload speed also showed a marginal improvement.

From what to what?

Possible you've been moved from Interleaved to Fast Path. Does your spreadsheet track those?

EDIT: On 25dB attn. I would expect at least 18 and probably 20 Meg sync which I get on 26.5 dB attn @ 3dB NM.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 26-Aug-13 22:44:29)

Morning XraySpeX

I have been on FASTPATH from definitely 22 August 2012 at 7:45 pm, (on an unknown date after 11th August 2012 at 3:45 pm).

The marginal improvement on Saturday in the Upstream was from 1,215 from 1,191 Kbps.

The reboot on Saturday had completed about 36 minutes earlier, before I looked at the Bright Box stats., as it seemed slightly faster.

================

The ADSL Status just copied from the Bright Box-

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)

Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1215 (Kbps.)
Downstream 19015 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.5 dB 3.9 dB
Line Attenuation 11.8 dB 25.0 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.4 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 2424 399
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 20694 262
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 1996 327

Statistics
Received Cells 40626011
Transmitted Cells 8920977

==================================

There are very few others using TBB Tests around me; and the majority of those are on SKY, the majority if those showing about 9 Mbps, with only one at about 12 Mbps.

The very few others tend to be even slower, the majority being generally at greater distances from the exchange.

No FTTx in the area.

=================================

I note you state "3 db NM", where-as my NM as seen above has worsened from 3.8 to 3.9 dB.

This difference to yours may explain the Downstream Speed difference, the proportionate difference of 3.0 to 3.9 db, being significantly greater (worsening) than the Downstream Attenuation difference in "my favour" of your 26.5 dB to my 25.0 dB.

Interesting.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

my NM as seen above has worsened from 3.8 to 3.9 dB.

You really need to clock the Target NM at sync time, as that determines the sync speed. It then wanders about in response to noise while the sync speed remains as as it was set at sync time.

Your Target NM was probably 3dB, but maybe 4.5dB, as they are set at intervals of 1.5dB, I observe.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

The marginal improvement on Saturday in the Upstream was from 1,215 from 1,191 Kbps.

I gather arithmetic isn't your strongest subject .

Thanks, Robertos.

It should have read from 1,191 to 1,215 Kbps.

I was thinking too much about the logarithmic basis and complications of the deciBels etc.

Taking me back some sixty years to when I first encountered them!

The difference when quoted for Power versus Voltage and/or Current - was it 3 dB on Power equated to 6 dB on Voltage and Current?

Some revision needed!

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

was it 3 dB on Power equated to 6 dB on Voltage and Current?

That's right- provided both measurements are taken using the same value of resistance, otherwise it gets more complicated.

A mathematical annoyance which is ignored much more often than it's obeyed!

If this had been me I would now write up the entire story and send that to BT with a request for a refund for the years of poor service they provided before this bad joint was found by the engineer. Feel free to give him lots of praise and describe what he found and the remedy.
Would be a nice alternative to them charging you £100 - you can but try...

Thanks, Bill.

Just an update and, hopefully, final post on this issue.

We have now had 11 days broadband without a disconnection, which is a record, and a steady speed of around 4.5mbps. It seems as though the problem is finally fixed.

I did get in touch with BT to express our displeasure at the years of hassle which could have been avoided if they had made more of an effort from the start and have received an abject apology plus some compensation by way of discounted broadband for the next 12 months. It's not a fortune - works out at a saving of around £220 for the year which sounds a lot, but BT are more expensive in the first place. Sadly BT are our only option where we live.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

There is no location in the UK where BT is the only retail provider.

BT Wholesale service is available at every exchange that BT Retail is available. So there is retail competition, but not from the ones like Sky who charge £17 for their Connect product which is a poor choice, TalkTalk used to but stopped and EE charge more for an out of area, as do PlusNet.

Still lots of other providers like A&A, IDnet, Zen and a long list of others that can provide better customer service, but you may find unlimited more expensive.

In reply to a post by milamber:

a saving of around £220 for the year

Better than nothing but poor for the amount of problems you've had due to their sloppy work in the past. Good to hear you've now got a stable service.

Been wondering how your BB service has been since your last posting on 3rd Sep.

Is it holding up, similar to the first 11 days?