Latency Problems

Hi,

I'm on Virgin National and I'm having issues with high latency. My download speed is 2 Mbps and my upload speed is 0.5 Mbps and when I run a test at Speedtest.net and ping google.co.uk my ping shoots up from around 28 ms to 400-1000 ms.

I have a Xbox One and I pretty much can't play anything on it because everything lags presumably because the ping shoots up as soon as data is downloaded/uploaded.

I'm in absolute despair and don't know what to do. Lag was minimal when I played on my Xbox 360 whilst with Sky at the time.

Can anyone help?

Ummm .

Did you change from Sky because you moved house? What Sky product were you on - LLU or Sky Connect?

Virgin National has a very poor reputation I'm afraid. Apparently they don't even offer it any more.

Which exchange are you on please? (The link to what this checker says would be ideal ).

I know

No, I changed because the speed was extremely poor - 0.6 Mbps. I assume I was on Sky LLU considering my speed?

I then discovered that the reason for the poor speed was actually because I had a bog standard faceplate for my master socket so I fitted a NTE5 ADSL filtered faceplate and removed the ring (bell) wire which immediately doubled my download speed.

I've read a few threads which said that but at the time I assumed that the National service would be decent as I've used their fibre services before and never had any problems.

This is my exchange:

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMGRHAM

Edited by sdb14 (Mon 03-Feb-14 01:22:31)

Sky LLU should have been good there, unless you are a very long way from the exchange.

Anyway, are you tied in to Virgin for a while, or is it monthly?

Please can you run the BT Performance Test and when it comes up with the results click the Further Diagnostics at the bottom. Then copy and paste the contents of the downstream and upstream text boxes of results .

In the morning will do. Sleep time for me now.

If it is the case you're tied into a contract with Virgin I would start a thread here http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Broadband-down-y... as well and get the support ball rolling on their end.

If you post a link back here when you do I'll keep an eye on it. My dad was moved to their national network when he moved home (was on their fibre network) and had bad service at first but they got it sorted for him.

I'll have to check whether I'm in a contract with Virgin but I have a feeling that I am. I'll ring them tonight when I get home from work and check.

The exchange is in the town centre and I live in a housing estate near the edge of town so there is a bit of distance.

I'll run the BT Performance Test tonight and paste the results for you Roberto.

I've rang Virgin a couple of times about my issue and they've been no help whatsoever.

I've actually already posted a thread on their forums but I've had no replies as of yet:

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Gaming/Xbox-One-...

Maybe I should post in the forum for 'Broadband down your phone line' instead?

Edited by sdb14 (Mon 03-Feb-14 10:21:12)

I would post in the down your phone line one as this should get some more attention.

They respond to threads based on those with the oldest reply (so once posted avoid bumping it)

The guys on the forum are generally a lot more helpful than those on the phone, I'd highlight the issues you've had with the call centre staff as well.

Thanks brand.

I'll post tonight and paste the link on here so you can keep an eye on it.

Sure

Are you downloading and/or uploading when you see the issue - what happens when you don't? Have you changed your router form the one you used with Sky? Can you ping the game server instead of bbc?

Higher ping times especially on upload (is it 400-1000ms throughout download and upload phases?) are nothing abnormal without traffic policies engaged locally or remotely.

Hi vimto,

My ping increases when downloading and uploading. My ping stays at around 28 ms otherwise.

I have a Billion 7800N router and I don't know what the Xbox Live server address would be?

Would QoS solve my problem? If I limit the upload bandwidth for my Xbox One so it's less than the total upload bandwidth available would that prevent the ping from increasing?

Hi Roberto,

Here are the results of the BT Performance Test:

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
1.94 Mbps

0 Mbps 2 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 1.94 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.8 Mbps-2 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 2.22 Mbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
0.57 Mbps

0 Mbps 0.83 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.57Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.83 Mbps

Nothing obviously wrong there I'm afraid.

It would appear to be doing downloading and/or uploading while gaming is what is wrecking the gaming. That upload of .83Mbps can easily get swamped, just by the ACKs for the download even without any actual uploads.

Are you setting up as many download streams as possible to maximise download speed? It isn't really a topic I know a lot about, but on slow lines like yours I have often seen it recommended by people that do, that you have to limit the number of download streams, so that the ACKs don't kill the upstream for your gaming packets.

Uploading stuff yourself while trying to game doesn't sound a good idea at all to me, if you are doing.

Is that what QoS does or do I have to do that another way?

Sorry, I don't know the detail of what to do. A huge number on these forums do, so I expect someone will pick up on this. Perhaps not tonight, but tomorrow. I hope someone will be able to help you.

I'd be surprised if simply the ACK's were swamping the upload enough to cause lag. I used to live on a long line 2mbps down 0.4 up and gaming was never an issue latency wise.

Not saying it isn't the cause just I'd be surprised unless OP was perhaps streaming iPlayer and gaming at the same time.

If you saturate one side of the link then it is normal for packets on other side to be delayed if they use ACK i.e. TCP packets

No matter how fast the connection this can happen.

Have you monitored the actual bandwidth in use by the Xbox One? Its usage should be no greater than an Xbox 360 unless you are trying to upload game clips while still playing online.

Oh of course, but general gaming (if xbox one acts similar to the 360) shouldn't saturate one side to the extent it's unplayable.

QoS or a ACK Prioritisation scheme is the answer BUT the much simpler one is that if gaming on the connection DO NOT do anything that uses the connection.

A faster connection will cope with some other activity, but even then there will be limits unless you set up QoS.

When I'm gaming there are no other devices connected to my router. The wireless is disabled on a time schedule. I've tried G.Dmt, ADSL2 and ADSL2+ and ADSL2 seems to work best on my line. My downstream attenuation on ADSL2+ is 64.5 and on G.Dmt and ADSL2 is 61.0 to 62.5. I've also been tweaking my SNR to increase my speed. I've tried QoS and it's helped a bit but my ping is still fluctuating and not remaining consistent. I've noticed that my downstream SNR seems to fluctuate quite a lot too.

Edited by sdb14 (Tue 04-Feb-14 09:44:26)

If the SNR is fluctuating, then you may also have some errors on the ADSL part of the line and this results in packet retransmits over the ADSL segment. So not good for gaming, but largely invisible for usual downloads.

Is the ping stable if all the connection is doing is pinging the first hop inside the ISP network?

Tweaking SNR may not actually help you, as pushing a line too fast and introduce more errors and actually give exactly the problems you have.

When I ping my router I get a stable 3 ms. When I ping google.co.uk I get a stable 24-31 ms, the value varies.

This morning my router had lost its ADSL connection and wouldn't connect so I had to return my SNR to normal and it connected but the download SNR was 13 dB and my download speed had dropped to just over 1 Mbps.

Edited by sdb14 (Tue 04-Feb-14 10:29:13)

If your tweaking made the line unstable then DLM will have seen that and now you are not overriding the target SNR you are back at what it thinks is needed for a stable low error connection.

To be honest, your line is long and you have a choice between slower and stable gaming or squeezing the most out of it.

A download speed of 0.5 Mbps with 0.25 Mbps upload should be enough for gaming, the only time it might struggle is if also using headset comms and have the quality of voice dialled right up. Most games with voice can manage in 128 Kbps to 150 Kbps, with no voice 64 Kbps should be enough.

Does DLM apply to G.Dmt and ADSL2 or only ADSL2+?

Why is my ping so inconsistent though? When I run a test on Speedtest.net the graph has spikes in it.

Here is a ping graph for my connection, look at the yellow and red

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/184e9df1a42...

Edited by sdb14 (Tue 04-Feb-14 11:06:47)

What graph? No link to one was in the post.

Speedtest.net is hosted in many locations, so not a good target to assess if issues are line based or general Internet issues.

The DLM system is active on all BT Wholesale connections that are rate adaptive. Dropping a line back to ADSL2 mode from ADSL2+ mode does not disable the DLM at all. Just removes 1.1Mhz of frequency from use which can make things slightly more stable on some lines.

Post amended.

What mode do you recommend I use on my line?

If I leave the SNR as default and let the DLM do its thing do you think things will improve?

Should I be able to get rock solid pings when gaming? Is there anything else I can do? I've got QoS for my console set to 95% upload bandwidth and 100% download bandwidth.

Without having lived with the line and knowing what hardware you using hard to comment.

Are you saying with the QoS that the console takes absolute priority over everything else? Remember that if its the only device running the sort of QoS you describe is largely irrelevant.

DLM might improve things, it might make it worse.

As for rock solid pings when gaming, the only way is if you OWN and CONTROL ever router between your console and the server. All you can do is try and get the ping stable across the ADSL segment.

I've got a Billion 7800N router.

I've set the QoS to 'Limited' not 'Prioritize' and it's the only device running at the time.

Okay well if the games are sensible they will be using UDP protocol so try prioritising that but if the connection is not saturated and it should not be with online gaming then you really not have a problem. Though some people seem to have had UPnP issues on billion routers and have tweaked settings and QoS to improve things.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1816331

And
http://billion-fae.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/how-to-set...
Also offers some settings you can play with. Alas don't have the 7800N to play with and verify or an Xbox One to see how much traffic they push.

Your problem might just actually be the ADSL transport layer and re-transmits i.e. at a lower transport layer and how the provider handles gaming traffic.

Thanks for the links.

I haven't actually tried my console with prioritization rules applied because I didn't think they'd make an impact if it's the console is the only device running.

I have a feeling that Virgin are screwing me over

Virgin National is known for poor performance i.e. under investment in network capacity so that is the biggest factor.

If it was me I would not bother with any more router fiddling until I had changed to a provider with a better reputation. As Virgin does not sell the national service anymore, they are not going to be investing in it much I suspect.

Who would be the best ISP to go for specifically for gaming if possible? I'm going to get out now even if I have to pay termination fees.

What exchange are you on?

Happy to exclude some mainly based on similar issues to the Virgin National product, but recommending a specific one is impossible, as the choice must be yours.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMGRHAM

I don't mind which one I go to as long as they deliver better performance!

Well TalkTalk LLU is available which is cheap and runs OK but people moan about customer support if they finally need it.

Otherwise a BT Wholesale service avoiding Sky. The usual suspects of BT, PlusNet, Zen, IDNet and the other providers in decreasing size.

Have you checked to see if FTTC is available, as apparently some parts have it, including ones outside the virgin cable footprint

Will TalkTalk give me the best performance? Price is no issue so I'd rather pay more if needed to get the best I can.

FTTC isn't available for me yet every broadband checker I've tried has said I can only get up to 2 Mbps.

Edited by sdb14 (Tue 04-Feb-14 13:28:08)

I wouldn't be so quick to pay the termination fee. You might find if they can't assist you they'll let you go free of charge.

In reply to a post by sdb14:

Does DLM apply to G.Dmt and ADSL2 or only ADSL2+?

To all.

Here is a ping graph for my connection, look at the yellow and red

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/184e9df1a42...

The red is because at 10:30 pm you had a disconnection and reconnection. As you are on a dynamic IP address with VM you have a new address.

That BQM setup is dead and you need to delete it. The next person to have that address may think he is under (mild) attack.

In reply to a post by sdb14:

What mode do you recommend I use on my line?

Not ADSL2+. Of the other two, hard to tell without checking occasionally, but G.DMT is likely to have the lower packet loss. You have a fairly constant trickle of red in the "working" part of that BQM.

If I leave the SNR as default and let the DLM do its thing do you think things will improve?

That's you best chance. If you leave it alone and the error rates go down, then DLM will after 10-14 days lower the margin by 3dBm giving you 500kbps or so more sync speed. It may after a further 10-14 lower it to 6dB with a similar speed gain.

Tweaking a long line is always risky, as was explained earlier.

Yes, the IP address changes every time a connection is made. I'll delete the graph

I'm connecting with ADSL2 at the moment but I'll switch back to G.DMT, leave the SNR alone and see what happens.

What is causing the packet loss?

Definitely won't hand over any money willingly

Andrews & Arnold, if your usage pattern fits into their system i.e. under 100GB
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/isp/aaisp.html

£25 per month plus voice line rental (either with someone else, or them)

Generally the best most techie support you will find

Let's start at the beginning. If you use your xbox 360 and the same router that used to work fine, and you do not download or upload or anything else at the same time, is gaming still bad? Please game, do not try artificial ping analysis.

If it's bad, and Sky at the same house was fine as you say, then there's an obvious solution.

You might be better posting here, giving more details of your connection, usage and circumstances.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Broadband-down-y...

Thanks, I'll have a look

vimto, you don't have all the information I'm afraid.

I'm using an Xbox One, I don't have the same router that I had before and not all the houses had been built round my house back then so I presume that would of helped my connection.

Just been on the phone to Virgin and spelt it out to them - resolve my issue or I'm leaving you. The guy on the phone was joking around and laughing with someone halfway through the call which is an absolute disgrace and very unprofessional. Anyway I e-mailed some pings and a traceroute and my issue has been escalated to second line support. If the issue isn't resolved I'm definitely going elsewhere. Have a look at what I sent, does it look bad I wonder?

traceroute: Warning: google.co.uk has multiple addresses; using 62.254.36.162
traceroute to google.co.uk (62.254.36.162), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 home.gateway.home.gateway (192.168.1.254) 4.063 ms 3.715 ms 3.638 ms
2 pete-bam-1.network.virginmedia.net (194.145.148.98) 25.361 ms 23.751 ms 24.696 ms
3 pete-core-2a-xe-130-2.network.virginmedia.net (82.0.242.109) 251.222 ms 269.485 ms 258.500 ms
4 nrth-bb-1b-ae15-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.175.138) 273.399 ms 245.268 ms 217.359 ms
5 * nrth-bb-1c-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.174.110) 205.619 ms *
6 lutn-icdn-1-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.175.82) 256.449 ms * 272.542 ms

PING google.co.uk (62.254.36.162): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=0 ttl=58 time=373.685 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=346.282 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=2 ttl=58 time=417.837 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=3 ttl=58 time=464.524 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=4 ttl=58 time=465.532 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=5 ttl=58 time=462.496 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=6 ttl=58 time=449.334 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=7 ttl=58 time=496.399 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=8 ttl=58 time=507.656 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=9 ttl=58 time=530.026 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=10 ttl=58 time=459.487 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=11 ttl=58 time=470.177 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=12 ttl=58 time=497.977 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=13 ttl=58 time=525.303 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=14 ttl=58 time=485.585 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=15 ttl=58 time=478.205 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=16 ttl=58 time=481.642 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=17 ttl=58 time=484.026 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=18 ttl=58 time=444.822 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=19 ttl=58 time=399.029 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=20 ttl=58 time=394.357 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=21 ttl=58 time=398.622 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=22 ttl=58 time=400.656 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=23 ttl=58 time=361.681 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=24 ttl=58 time=445.186 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=25 ttl=58 time=408.293 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=26 ttl=58 time=408.757 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=27 ttl=58 time=456.787 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=28 ttl=58 time=424.691 ms
64 bytes from 62.254.36.162: icmp_seq=29 ttl=58 time=344.109 ms

Edited by sdb14 (Tue 04-Feb-14 20:40:23)

What timeframe did they give for a response?

5 working days. If they don't fix it I'm going to move to A&A. Been in their IRC channel for a bit and it seems fantastic!

Looks to be a vm network issue ie massive jump in latency

What could cause that?

People using more bandwidth that Virgin Media is willing to buy use across a specific link.

A hardware fault, e.g. broken fibre so a route is carrying more traffic than usual.

Bad capacity planning.

Or just business as usual for a service that so long as web pages load they consider it ok.

Well I'm giving them a chance which is fair but if they don't deliver I'm off. Why should I pay for a sub-standard service when I can go elsewhere and get something a lot better.

If I leave Virgin and have to pay a termination fee do I pay that first or will they send me a bill with it on? I'm planning on ordering the telephone line from BT then getting Home Broadband from AA.

It'll be on the final bill. Though if they can't resolve the issues in 5 days time you stand good ground for them to wave it as a "gesture of good will"

The woman on the phone said there has to be three fault notifications from the technical team but I'm not listening to that. I'll keep you posted on what happens.

Well if they can't resolve it I hardly see a reason for there to be three! Call centre staff are useless, I always go via the forum because they do do much better (albeit much better than god awful can't stand for to much)