Possible fault - Deteriorating download.. Now upload?

Hi,

We have a fairly long telephone line, and has always been bad. We started getting a lucky 2400(ish) kbps connection when the "up to" services started (ADSL Max?) around 6 or 7 years ago i guess. This has been getting progressively slower over time to now more consistently in the 1600-1800 kbps range.

Recently this has been getting even worse, and is starting the effect the upload. It had consistently been the 448kbps maximum ever since we have got it.

I have been noticing alot more dropout, or innstances where the modem (Netgear D6300) would hold the synch, but the SNR would be around 1 dB and the amount of errors would result in webpages unable to load. This has co-incided with vastly variable downstream and upstream connections.

Downstream between 1200kbps and 1800kbps
Upstream between 80kbps and 396 kbps.

As i said, we have never previously had an issue hitting the 448 kbps upstream limit.
Downstream was always around the 2400kbps when we first got upto 8mb, but now more consistently 1800kbps.

After a little reading I am thinking this is a fault? especially because it is hitting the upstream?

My current line stats are as follows:

Downstream:
Connection - 1358kbps (worst I have seen in a LONG time - after a resync this morning)
Attenuation - 69.5 db
SNR - 6.3 db

Upstream:
Connection - 396 kbps
Attenuation - 41.2 db
SNR - 6 db

Our ISB is Plusnet. And yes I am aware this is a very long line and lucky to have it even working. Just seems suspect that it has degraded this far. And no Bt infinity nor Virgin cable are not available, they are in the town but deemed our (affluent) estate not worthy of cabling.

I was going to go to Plusnet to day for a diagnostic, I would just like to ask your opinions so I have some addition information to push at plusnet.

Thanks for your time,

Greg

Just to add to this, I was monitoring the line stats whilst in the customer service queue, and some pretty nasty crackling occured just as the upstream SNR went bananas.

Resynched to a higher downstream of 1554kbps but much lower upsteam of 84kbps (SNR of 8???)

Get a (free) copy of Router Stats Light and set it running to monitor your upstream SNR and sync with samples every 15 seconds. Leave it running for 24 hours (minimum).

That "crackling" indicates that you should do some Quiet Line Tests first.

Unplug what yiu can at the NTE (Network Terminating box - where the incoming phone line "enters" your property).

If it is a recent NTE5 White Box, remove the lower front part, two simple screws, to expose the Test Socket.

Plug preferably a corded (older/simpler) phone in to that Test Socket.

Dial 17070

Select Option 2 (Option 4 if SKY)


If there are any untoward noises (apart from a very low hum), eg "snap, crackle, pop", dialling tones, crackling etc, try agin with an xDSL Splitter included.

If the noises remain, REPORT this a s PHONE Line problem, to your PHONE PROVIDER, avoiding mentioning Broadband.


It may be worth repeating this QLT particularly during extreme weather, as some faults only show up in such conditions.

---------------------------------

If your Phone Line passes the QLT, reconnect everything normally; and repeat the QLTs from a suitable extension.

If you now hear "untoward" noises, they are coming from either your own equipment whether PC related or not, or from an extraneous source, which may be in your own household or near neighbours.

If from within your own household, it is your responsibility to sort it.

If from a neighbour .....

-----------------------------------

assuming you get any problems cleared, you should repeat the QLT occasionally, rather like testing the tyre pressures on a car.

Setting it to save the graphs, including on closing, and preferably save to a log file as well.

Just an update - fairly sure this is to do with the crackling on the line. I have done the suggested QLT going into the master socket, and do get intermittent bursts of crackle. So will be reporting this to BT and as suggested, not saying anything about ADSL.

Just to eliminate everything else, I also changed filters, direct to the master socket. I plugged in the old 2wire 2700GHV to see if the chipset helped to no avail.

Forcing ADSL 1 helped the attenuation and downstream alot... and also helped the upstream for a while (fixed at 448)

however this has since died and the upstream is now a lowly 32kbps (but downstream 1800kbps).

Just out of curiosity, what do they do when fixing the crackling? what causes it? High resistance?

Just out of curiosity, what do they do when fixing the crackling? what causes it? High resistance?

Yep, usually an HR fault.

So will be reporting this to BT and as suggested, not saying anything about ADSL.

This advice is often given on these boards, and I wholly disagree with it. You'll most likely get a noob engineer out on a CDTA task who'll pronounce the line as testing OK and you'll get stuck with a charge.

Since it's the broadband you are having issue with, then report it as such.

The reason it is suggested so much is that it is usually a line fault and fixing that will normally fix the broadband, whereas it was the norm for years that reporting a broadband fault resulted in No fault found. Not only that but the callout to line faults seemed much more responsive.

Openreach diagnostics and/or the broadband engineer training may have improved, but that is where the advice stems from.

Similarly it was much more common than it is now for the phone and broadband to be from different CPs. If when reporting a crackling line to the rental CP the user mentioned broadband, they would be told to contact their ISP instead. If they did that we are back to my first paragraph.

You may well be right nowadays, but historically it wasn't so.

TBF, it was more my usual reaction to eckidoo's posts, the poster seems incapable of posting on here without suggesting a quiet line test ???

Ah, I thought I'd seen several suggestions over the last couple of months of quiet line tests where there was nothing in the described problem that indicated it was the next step, but I hadn't thought to look at who was posting them.

Well. if you are bored Bob ........ check it out.

My reasoning for suggesting the QLT is that effectively, it costs nothing to do; and is a quick, simple action that the person can carry out, without fancy test equipment etc.

I would also ask why it is provided as part of the "BT Line Test Facilities" and does not require to be "authorised" (Option 3), if it has no relevance?

I think that you would agree that the state of the phone line is important to the delivery of most Phone and Broadband facilities, as very few have FTTP etc; but many are unaware of the relationship, that generally xDSL Broadband is as dependent upon the Phone Line as any Phone Call from the same connection.


To pose the question the other way, would you advise that the QLT should never be used; or only after other avenues have been explored?

I would also ask why it is provided as part of the "BT Line Test Facilities" and does not require to be "authorised" (Option 3), if it has no relevance?

Of course it has it's uses, but the same affect can be achieved by simply pressing 9 once. One might argue if it's so essential why can it not be done on Talktalk LLU voice services ?

I think that you would agree that the state of the phone line is important to the delivery of most Phone and Broadband facilities,

Yes, but there are plenty of issues a pair may suffer from which might affect phone and/or broadband which cannot be identified by a quiet line test. Unbalanced, low AC balance, battery and earth contacts, rectified loops, etc, etc.

To pose the question the other way, would you advise that the QLT should never be used; or only after other avenues have been explored?

My proposal was that maybe your advocation of it's use in a such high percentage of your posts was not always required

As someone with a reasonable knowledge of current Openreach working practices, your advice of ringing to report a voice fault is, unless a 'hard' fault is detected, going to end in charges being passed to the CP from Openreach, and from the CP to punter. All that, and you'll still have a broadband fault.

Did you see this ?

Edited by Zarjaz (Tue 22-Jul-14 23:03:08)

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

without fancy test equipment etc.

I'm shocked these days by the no. of peeps who don't own a basic landline handset and don't realise they could be invaluable for diagnosing BB. So there is often a few pounds cost involved.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Of course it has it's uses, but the same affect can be achieved by simply pressing 9 once.

That test only lasts 16 seconds on my line

Morning Zarjaz

Agreed fully that the QLT is not a "cure-all" for all xDSL Broadband problems.

And I have not intended to imply this, just that it is a simple test, fairly readily understood, not requiring fancy test equipment and technical knowledge; and may guide the person towards ensuring that the problem is "not of their own making" etc, ie that the problem source is possibly some of their own or local devices, as the QLT has shown the external phone line to be "Quiet"; but that as soon as the internal wiring is re-connected ...

In the latter case, tending to steering them away from incurring such charges, rather than potentially incurring them.

Otherwise, what would you recommend such persons to do?

Simply accept a poorer service?

Possibly incur costs by moving to another ISP with possible additional costs and continuing to get a poor service?

Clearly incur further costs by buying a "super-duper" modem/router, to continue getting a poorer service?

-----------------------------------

What initial route would you advise "Joe Public" to follow in such situations, to avoid or minimise costs, whilst achieving Broadband services of the quality he is already paying for?

Agreed XRaySpex.

I also have been surprised by that, showing the ingress and replacement by mobile/cell phones.

And with (almost-) simple fixed hand-sets being so cheap, apart from "inherited" ones.

Similarly it is interesting to note how many "local tradesmen" etc display mobile numbers on vehicles, advertising etc, rather than a fixed land line "traditional" number.

I have noted that the local Phone Book has shrunk back to approaching the size of the 1970's Phone Directory, yet containing at least two additional sections, so a fair proportion of multiple entries for businesses, compared to back then.

Morning 4M2

Agreed that the "9" lasts 16 seconds, just checked on my own phone.

To be effective, the BT QLT is around 25 seconds; but does not cut-off in the way that the "9" does, so could be held open for longer, thinking of intermittent faults.

But does "9" do exactly the same as the QLT?

the BT QLT does not directly give additional information that I have heard; BUT the SKY Option 4 QLT does give at least one additional item, whether there is an Echo on the line; and the level of that Echo.

I came across this when doing the QLT on a SKY Land Line with Broadband etc.

Another SKY installation simply reported that there were no problems.

I did not hear any echoes or pulses on the first SKY line, suggesting that there may be an ultra-audio component to the SKY Test, along the lines of a TDR.

The first time I tried that SKY line, the result was that the line was "Quiet but I can hear an Echo" or similar.

The next time some days later, the result was "Quiet but I can hear a slight echo." or similar.

Does the BT QLT have such an additional component?

Sorry don't know much about quiet line tests but '9' did seem a little too brief for hearing intermittent crackling etc. However my neighbours did have a continuous humming on their line and I guess �9� would be OK for testing that

Afternoon 4M2

I have just finished working through the full range of digits, getting exactly the same result from each digit, 16 seconds of a very slight hissing, followed by a three note chime and "The number you have dialled has not been recognised. Please try again" etc.

Trying the proper QLT Option, there was a similar hissing, with the occasional announcement "Quiet Line Test".

I used the speaker facility on my phone, to maximise the volume in each of the tests, so the very quiet hissing may have been locally sourced in that phone.

Whilst your neighbour did hear a continuous hum with his specific fault, the single digit in my opinion, is clearly not intended to be a substitute for a proper QLT, otherwise why did BT (and SKY) provide the 17070 facility?

Do you know what the actual cause of the humming?

Yes it was a fault with the internal wiring from the external junction box to the NTE5 - an OR engineer relocated the NTE5 after drilling a hole in the wall and running fresh external grade cable from the junction box. The original internal grade cable etc. was left in place (obviously disconnected) since removing it would have caused problems with the wallpaper, carpeting etc. at that stage.

The humming was so bad that conversations were impossible. Because it was a serious voice fault the OR engineer did the repair, free of charge, a day after the fault was reported In contrast I�ve found that intermittent "crackling" voice faults are a devil to get repaired unless they are a symptom of ADSL disconnections

Afternoon Zarjaz

I have since followed through, first checking BT's recommendations-

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/37807...

You'll note that the first step is to re-boot the equipment.

The second step is to check that the phone line is working, acknowledging that it does not mention the QLT.


SKY's recommendation-

http://broadband.diagnostics.sky.com/
"
If your Sky Broadband connection has stopped working, is slower than expected or has an intermittent connection, our online step by step guide will help you fix the problem.
"

Following through "Get started"

http://broadband.diagnostics.sky.com/dial-tone
"
Check your phone line

If you have a telephone, lift your phone receiver. If you can hear a beeping, intermittent dial tone, this means you have a voicemail and there isn�t a fault with your telephone line.

We also need you to check for the following before you continue:

No dial tone
Noise, hissing or crackling on the line
"
(My Emphasis)

Again there is no direct mention of the QLT, which I think is some-whst remiss of both companies, as the use of their respective QLTs, would help to establish recognised standards of testing.

I wonder why this reluctance?

I had not viewed those BT and SKY pages previously.

==============================

Agreed that there are many phone line faults that can affect either or both Voice and Broadband - so do we tell any enquiring poster to simply contact the ISP, with all their obstacles, costs and similar ramifications should the source of the fault turn out to be within the poster's control?

If the poster is unaware of the QLT or a substitute, how is he/she going to learn about it if not mentioned?

And I have only recommended that a Voice Fault be reported when "untoward noises" have been heard at the NTE, nowhere else - surely directly in line and agreement with your own clearly expressed opinion?

Thanks for the quick reply and explanation.

so do we tell any enquiring poster to simply contact the ISP, with all their obstacles, costs and similar ramifications should the source of the fault turn out to be within the poster's control?

No, we listen to what the poster has to say, and based on this, if the symptoms suggest it, and after all the usual advice, trying in the test jack, new filters, etc, then we might suggest it.

If the poster is unaware of the QLT or a substitute, how is he/she going to learn about it if not mentioned?

My point being that maybe in some/many cases informing the OP should be as required, not mandatory.