Is LLU likely at 1,000 line Exchanges?

Are suppliers like Talk Talk and Sky likely to install equipment in 1,000 residential line exchanges where they don't currently have anything?

Even if you don't make use of their services, their presence can have a big impact on the price that has to be paid for the use of BT equipment.

How does it have such an effect? Exchanges don't get re-classified by Ofcom as a result.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 07-Sep-14 20:28:46)

Plusnet charge more where there are no LLU operators. However, I am not so sure that the Post Office does.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Plusnet charge more where there are no LLU operators.

No, PN charge more at Market 1 exchanges, even if LLU ISPs have appeared since OFCOM's classification done years ago.

Perfectly possible but would need perfect conditions for exchanges that small.

They would need space, power, cheap access to high capacity backhaul and of course the demand (or existing customers to switch over).

Given that a small exchange like that will be a daughter of a larger NGA node exchange it will get GEA-FTTC services when/if FTTC becomes available from the likes of TalkTalk, Sky and more without them needing to Unbundle the local exchange so long as they have LLU in the node exchange and have bought a GEA-FTTC link.

LLU is out-of-date now. Although there will probably be the odd exchange enabled here an there where demand makes it viable.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Are suppliers like Talk Talk and Sky likely to install equipment in 1,000 residential line exchanges where they don't currently have anything?

Even if you don't make use of their services, their presence can have a big impact on the price that has to be paid for the use of BT equipment.

There's always a possibility!

I know for a fact because TalkTalk & Orange (No longer there) many years ago LLU'ed an exchange near me with just 385 residential lines!

I think it depends whether they have presence at nearby exchanges though. Do any exchanges near you offer TalkTalk LLU services?

As of the last we heard Sky do not provide FTTC at their non-LLU exchanges even if that exchange is provided with FTTC from a different one, which they have LLU'ed and have a GEA link.

The reason being they normally insist on LLU phone, and the phone link remains at the copper exchange.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 07-Sep-14 22:01:19)

Oh balls. My bad. Forgot about the phone line side of things.

I wonder if Sky will change how they do things future for off-net areas so that they can still have FTTC through GEA-FTTC? Will probably need to as many exchanges being enabled as part of BDUK Sky wouldn't be able to offer service to.

In statistical terms, the size threshold at which there is a 50% chance of at least 1 LLU operator in addition to BT has been falling steadily over time and may go below 1,000 premises by the end of 2015.

In terms of regulation what matters now is whether an exchange is classified as Market A or Market B (with at least 2 LLU operators + BT). For Market B the 3rd operator would expect to get no more than one-third of the market or less than 300 customers (since broadband take up is less 100%). Whether and when that is worthwhile will depend on equipment prices and the cost of leasing backhaul, but it is probably 2-3 years away at least.

In reply to a post by 5km:

I wonder if Sky will change how they do things future for off-net areas so that they can still have FTTC through GEA-FTTC? Will probably need to as many exchanges being enabled as part of BDUK Sky wouldn't be able to offer service to.

Hopefully! What they may start doing is installing a dedicated handover point (E.g. Small, specific DSLAM) in medium sized exchanges to pull traffic onto their network which they do not currently have LLU presence in and cover a large area from that.

That's what common sense would show anyway...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As of the last we heard Sky do not provide FTTC at their non-LLU exchanges even if that exchange is provided with FTTC from a different one, which they have LLU'ed and have a GEA link.

The reason being they normally insist on LLU phone, and the phone link remains at the copper exchange.

They do now: http://i.imgur.com/oepjjvh.png

That's a property FTTC enabled under BDUK with no Sky presence at the local exchange but the cabinet is backhauled to an exchange which has been LLU'd.

Edited by Olly_ (Tue 09-Sep-14 12:53:59)

That's good .

In reply to a post by Olly_:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As of the last we heard Sky do not provide FTTC at their non-LLU exchanges even if that exchange is provided with FTTC from a different one, which they have LLU'ed and have a GEA link.

The reason being they normally insist on LLU phone, and the phone link remains at the copper exchange.

They do now: http://i.imgur.com/oepjjvh.png

That's a property FTTC enabled under BDUK with no Sky presence at the local exchange but the cabinet is backhauled to an exchange which has been LLU'd.

In that case Sky can only offer SMPF, surely they're shooting themselves in the foot as you're free to choose your own tel supplier?

Sweet

It doesn't say you don't have to take Sky line rental.

Non-fibre would be Sky Connect and WLR. FTTC would be WLR to the copper exchange.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It doesn't say you don't have to take Sky line rental.

Isn't that what it means by 'Sky BB + Talk is not available in your area' but Sky BB & Fibre UL is?

AIUI "Sky Talk" is the LLU product.

Sky Broadband in the particular case would be "Sky Connect".

Yes, but that says nowt about the phone component, which you were alluding to.

You have to take Sky line rental to get Sky broadband. Barring exceptional circumstances.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Barring exceptional circumstances.

I thought here we were exploring an exceptional circumstances in the guise of Sky Fibre piped from a neighbouring exchange where the landline does not terminate.

Otherwise, agreed in the case of Sky ADSL Connect.

That isn't exceptional. I was meaning O2 transfers and I think like BT where the new customer is in phone contract elsewhere ( - until that expires?).

Don't forget my post was a reply to baby_frogmella about shooting themselves in the foot and SMPF.

It's exceptional enough that you were not even aware of it until it was pointed out to you that it does occur.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As of the last we heard Sky do not provide FTTC at their non-LLU exchanges even if that exchange is provided with FTTC from a different one, which they have LLU'ed and have a GEA link.

So you just don't know and can't make positive assertions that such Sky Fibre custs would have to take Sky line rental.

Your reply to baby_frogella referred to and was based on that Sky screenshot that made no mention of line rental; only of the monthly fee & connection fee for Sky Fibre.

The price offered, £20 pm, for Sky Fibre is the standard price w/out the 6 m discount.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 09-Sep-14 20:43:42)

Funny that all product descriptions add "Sky line rental required". Not "Sky Talk required". Baby_frogmella said you could take some other line rental in the post I replied to.

Funnier that that one doesn't! We never pressed the 'Accept' to see if it would.

Yes, it was your reply that kicked this discussion off.

If you're with A&A, then daytime usage is twice as expensive on 20CN compared to 21CN exchanges.

That's true.