ADSL Max vs "Fixed Rate"

According to www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html my exchange has the following available:

ADSL Max offering 5.5 Mbps
and
"Fixed Rate" offering 2 MBPS

There is also a note stating:

"The Stop Sale date for Datastream is from 30-Jun-2012; the Formal Retirement date for Datastream is from 30-Jun-2014."

I'd be grateful if someone could answer the following questions:

1) With my current provider, I get a speed of over 6 Mbps, so presumably am on ADSL max; If I change to a cheaper provider, is there a possibiliy I'll only get "Fixed Rate" with a max speed of 2 Mbps? I suppose I'm asking if there really are two broadband speeds available from the same exchange.

2) Is "Datastream" a third product that is no longer available, or is is the same thing as "Fixed Rate"?

Datastream not available

Who is existing provider if llu may be faster than adsl max

Providers only use The fixed rate products if you order that explicitly ie. As rare as 5 numbers on national lottery

Hi,

I don't think so. Makes no sense to put someone on a fixed IPstream 2mbps service where ADSL Max (upto 8mbps) is cheaper and more flexible.

Datastream ( I think) was the system before IP stream came along. https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/products-se... is what I think I am on about. I also think Datastream was the fixed product but few people are on it now

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Datastream not available

Who is existing provider if llu may be faster than adsl max

Providers only use The fixed rate products if you order that explicitly ie. As rare as 5 numbers on national lottery

Existing provider is Plusnet. SSE offer free BB for two years if I move line rental to them, but their system tells them I'd get a max speed of 0.5 Mbps. Can I safely assume that is rubbish and I'd actually be getting the same product as I'm currently enjoying from Plusnet?

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Apr-15 23:09:56)

If no llu at exchange I'd avoid SSE as providers like them tend to perform poorly on ipstream max echanges due to small amount of backhaul capacity ordered

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If no llu at exchange I'd avoid SSE as providers like them tend to perform poorly on ipstream max echanges due to small amount of backhaul capacity ordered

ADSL Max and the Fixed Rate thing are all that are showing. I think you are saying that SSE are probably correct in warning me my speed will be low? Is backhaul capacity sort of like bandwidth they have to pre order from BT wholesale? So if I go with SSE, I could find my speed is actually restricted to 0.5 Mbps?

It wouldn't do any harm, and there's a slight chance it would help, if you tell us the exchange .

The BT Wholesale estimates are connection speeds, not throughput. The 0.5Mbps suggestion from SSE looks strange. Again, a copy and paste of the BTW estimates might help us help you.

Datastream and IPStream were around at the same time but were wholesaled differently as they used different options for the backhaul from the exchange.

A small number of providers used datastream but the majority used IPstream. Both are now legacy products since the implementation of 21CN.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It wouldn't do any harm, and there's a slight chance it would help, if you tell us the exchange .

https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/ESASB


The BT Wholesale estimates are connection speeds, not throughput. The 0.5Mbps suggestion from SSE looks strange. Again, a copy and paste of the BTW estimates might help us help you.

BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER
Telephone Number 01361840xxx on Exchange ABBEY ST BATHANS
Featured Products
Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate(Mbps) Downstream Range(Mbps) Availability Date
ADSL Max Up to 5.5 -- 4.5 to 8 Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

Throughput/download speeds will be less than line rates and can be affected by a number of factors within and external to BT's network, Communication Providers' networks and within customer premises.

The Stop Sale date for Datastream is from 30-Jun-2012; the Formal Retirement date for Datastream is from 30-Jun-2014.

No LLU
http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/?postcode=TD11%...

So general rule is avoid the resellers, stick to the BT, PlusNet providers

Datastream vanished in use once Tiscali once bought by TalkTalk

Fixed rate is only appropriate on long lines with issues when the actual speed on ADSL Max is below the fixed rate. On ADSL Max, when many errors occur it slows the line down to try to make it stable.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

No LLU
http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/?postcode=TD11%...

So general rule is avoid the resellers, stick to the BT, PlusNet providers

Plusnet have been trouble free, but now the introductory discount is expired, they are looking expensive. I know of others on the exchange using Zen and also Post Office - and happy with result. Why would SSE be worse/slower than them?

In reply to a post by asker:

Plusnet have been trouble free, but now the introductory discount is expired, they are looking expensive. I know of others on the exchange using Zen and also Post Office - and happy with result. Why would SSE be worse/slower than them?

ISPs tend to be quite expensive on Market A so there's usually little point in straying from BT, plus BT generally order plenty of backhaul from their sister company when others tend to order less on IPSC.

What are the prices like?

In reply to a post by AAuser27:

Hi,

I don't think so. Makes no sense to put someone on a fixed IPstream 2mbps service where ADSL Max (upto 8mbps) is cheaper and more flexible.

Datastream ( I think) was the system before IP stream came along. https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/products-se... is what I think I am on about. I also think Datastream was the fixed product but few people are on it now

DataStream had both fixed and Max variants, It's differentiator was that it provided an ATM Virtual Path (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_Transfer_Mode) backhaul for each and every individual BTWholesale DSLAM within an exchange to an ISP's nearest point of presence on their network. ISPs could size each VP to suit the traffic needs in a much more granular way, lowering costs in the process. Only suited to those ISP's with an ATM based core network (such as Tiscali).

SSE use Daisy as their wholesaler, and don't know enough about how they perform on Market 1 with no LLU exchanges.

Given the village with the exchange in it seems to comprise just one postcode cannot see LLU arriving, so I'd take the higher price with provider who is delivering or try BT. Personally I'd be picking from Zen and IDNet anyway, but they are more expensive than Plusnet

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by asker:

Plusnet have been trouble free, but now the introductory discount is expired, they are looking expensive. I know of others on the exchange using Zen and also Post Office - and happy with result. Why would SSE be worse/slower than them?

ISPs tend to be quite expensive on Market A so there's usually little point in straying from BT, plus BT generally order plenty of backhaul from their sister company when others tend to order less on IPSC.

What are the prices like?

The SSE offer is:
SSE Everyday Broadband (unlimited) free for 2 years then £8 per month
+ Talk Weekend
+ £12 a month line rental

With Plusnet I'm looking at line rental of £12.99 (if I pay for a year in advance) + 16.99 for unlimited BB now that the £7 introductory discount has expired. They can do slightly better than that - but insist on a 24 month contract.

- so you can see why the SSE offer is of interest, but I'd be sick as a parrot if I was signed up for 18m and only getting 0.5 Mbps.

Edited by deleted (Wed 29-Apr-15 11:27:29)

I came here with the belief that if I was buying ADSL Max from another provider I'd be getting the same product at a lower cost (albeit with likely poorer support)

I think you are saying that due to "back haul" (whatever that is) and other issues, the cheaper ISPs would not be providing the same product - and even though it is still ADSL Max, it would be slower.

Is this a fair summary?

Let me chip in. Do not stray from BT, PlusNet etc - I totally agree. The big ISPs generally buy enough bandwidth to cope with their demand, the small cheap ones often do not, the small expensive ones do.

As a basic example, imagine it like this.

Imagine there are 3 providers, BT, Plusnet and SSE.
If you imagine every ISP has 100 customers.
100 customers on BT, 100 on Plusnet, 100 on SSE

Lets say there is 100Mbps available to your local telephone exchange.

BT may pay for 50Mbps, Plusnet may pay for 40Mbps, SSE may pay for 10Mbps.

Evidently SSE would end up much slower, as it has purchased a much lower amount of bandwidth (only 10Mbps) whereas BT would be 5 times faster as it has 50Mbps of bandwidth.

This is largely how it works... The example is very basic but gets the point across.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Let me chip in. Do not stray from BT, PlusNet etc - I totally agree. The big ISPs generally buy enough bandwidth to cope with their demand, the small cheap ones often do not, the small expensive ones do.

As a basic example, imagine it like this.

Imagine there are 3 providers, BT, Plusnet and SSE.
If you imagine every ISP has 100 customers.
100 customers on BT, 100 on Plusnet, 100 on SSE

Lets say there is 100Mbps available to your local telephone exchange.

BT may pay for 50Mbps, Plusnet may pay for 40Mbps, SSE may pay for 10Mbps.

Evidently SSE would end up much slower, as it has purchased a much lower amount of bandwidth (only 10Mbps) whereas BT would be 5 times faster as it has 50Mbps of bandwidth.

This is largely how it works... The example is very basic but gets the point across.

OK thanks I didn't know it worked like that. I've just been on the phone to Plusnet and they've offered to more or less match the SSE deal - so that seems like an amazing result - and from what you say here, a lot better than going over to SSE or Post Office

Thanks to all for good info and advice.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Providers only use The fixed rate products if you order that explicitly ie. As rare as 5 numbers on national lottery

That's true. I just wanted to add that I have the option to go 2Mbps down and 1mbps up on my TT line I have with A&A

I have about 30 profiles from 256k both ways right up to max speed. It's mind blowing

It doesn't actually happen at the exchange. It happens at the other end of the BT Wholesale system, where they pass it over to the individual ISPs.

The ISP rents MSILs at that/those point(s), and they pay by the maximum Mbps that their MSILs can handle. There isn't a direct clash between ISPs in the way ukhardy described - though his method was a very good way of illustrating the effect.

ISPs basically look at their number of customers, and working on the basis that although a high percentage may be connected at any given time the traffic for each comes in bursts.

Let's take two extremes. Think sending and receiving emails, or clicking on a link to a page on a site. They expect say only 1 in 20 people to click a new page link at the same time.

If we assume all 20 are connected at 8Mbps, the therefore need only to provide 400kbps each (total 8Mbps) at the handover point. Most of the time it will work fine.

The problem (at the other extreme) comes when 15 of the 20 want to watch live Wimbledon, or snooker at the moment, and the other five are streaming Netflix.

The more expensive the ISP, in overall cost of the service and bundles, the more simultaneous handover capacity per customer they budget for.

A reasonable summary, backhaul is the middle bit of the network between the exchange and the Internet, as capacity on IPStream Max exchanges costs more generally, tendency is for cheaper providers to not spend the money needed and concentrate on areas where they can get more bang for their buck.

So the ADSL connection would be the same, but experience in day to day use might vary. Of course until you try you cannot be sure, but with a 2 year contract that's a big gamble.

As you have probably gleaned from all the previous answers it does, in the end, come down to: the lower the cost, the lower the quality/support/speed - the have to limit what they can provide.

If an ISP charges more, they have more money to spend on back-haul and links, support - both location and times, and willingness to resolve issues &c

I use a business quality service and certainly pay a lot more than most - do I see congestion, very, very, very occasionally. Do I get outages? Yes, however they are rapidly fixed. Support, 24hr UK based &c &c.

That is a different thing, the TT profiles on your AA line are not about changing products, but about controlling the DLM for the specific product you are using.

In reply to a post by asker:

I think you are saying that due to "back haul" (whatever that is) and other issues, the cheaper ISPs would not be providing the same product - and even though it is still ADSL Max, it would be slower.

"ADSL Max" on refers to the bit on your phone line from the exchange to your house. It doesn't help determine how well your chosen ISP gets the information from the exchange to the internet.

I get what your saying. Thanks for the clarification

it's still cool to go back to 2mbps/512k for nostalgia reasons

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It doesn't actually happen at the exchange. It happens at the other end of the BT Wholesale system, where they pass it over to the individual ISPs.

The ISP rents MSILs at that/those point(s), and they pay by the maximum Mbps that their MSILs can handle. There isn't a direct clash between ISPs in the way ukhardy described - though his method was a very good way of illustrating the effect.

ISPs basically look at their number of customers, and working on the basis that although a high percentage may be connected at any given time the traffic for each comes in bursts.

Let's take two extremes. Think sending and receiving emails, or clicking on a link to a page on a site. They expect say only 1 in 20 people to click a new page link at the same time.

If we assume all 20 are connected at 8Mbps, the therefore need only to provide 400kbps each (total 8Mbps) at the handover point. Most of the time it will work fine.

The problem (at the other extreme) comes when 15 of the 20 want to watch live Wimbledon, or snooker at the moment, and the other five are streaming Netflix.

The more expensive the ISP, in overall cost of the service and bundles, the more simultaneous handover capacity per customer they budget for.

Is this the same issue as "Contention Ratio"? I presume it is more complex than that, otherwise it would be simple matter to ask a potential ISP what contention ratio they could offer?

In reply to a post by asker:

Is this the same issue as "Contention Ratio"? I presume it is more complex than that, otherwise it would be simple matter to ask a potential ISP what contention ratio they could offer?

They won't quote a contention ratio, they just cram loads of people into a small pipe and let them fight it out. Ask any user who has experience of Sky or TalkTalk over BT Wholesale.

In a way, yes. But much more complicated.

Contention ratios as we used to understand them (20:1 and 50:1) were effectively scrapped when ADSL Max came on the scene. They basically applied to the merging of several fixed-sync lines at some point in the system.

The contention has in general now moved to these MSILs I mentioned earlier, where it is a more complicated calculation involving user profiling, expected normal and unusual peak demands, the profit margin required and the customer satisfaction levels needed. The detail I don't know, but a few years ago they were talking in terms of low hundreds of mbps per customer.

Now that unlimited usage and loads of streaming are expected they must be provisioning rather a lot more than that, but there are still millions who only browse, shop and email. They use very little.

Some local information. Abbey St Bathans is a tiny exchange that had Exchange Activate equipment in it for a long time, which can only provide 0.5 Mbps. I don't know on what basis SamKnows claims that it was upgraded to ADSL Max in 2005 but from conversations back around 2008 I believe that it was after that date with some spare money left over in a Scottish Government program.

The figures that have been given for backhaul bear no relationship to the situation at an exchange like ASB. There will be no more than 40-50 ADSL customers at the exchange and I doubt whether there is more than a 10 - or just possibly 20 - Mbps circuit from the exchange to (probably) Duns or Berwick. I suspect that SSE would only buy a 1 Mbps of backhaul capacity or they would buy an end-to-end service from BT Wholesale. As a consequence sync speeds, occasional speed tests and reliable speeds during peak periods will differ by large margins.

The point is that ADSL services from small, rural exchanges in the South of Scotland or the Highlands have a completely different character from those that 95% or more of TBB readers experience. The truth is that SSE probably doesn't want you as a customer unless it has a number of other customers at the same exchange, which, given its & the exchange's history, is unlikely. So specifying an old and uncompetitive speed is a good way of saying no politely.

I am surprised that Plusnet took the bait - presumably their software is not discriminating enough to work out when customers would be unprofitable. Several companies claim that their service is not available at current or former Exchange Activate exchanges because they don't want the costs and hassle.

0.5 Mbps was a very welcome upgrade from dialup and seemed fast at the time. The next upgrade was Spring 2011. Currently I get a speed of 6 to 7 Mbps - even at peak times. Does that say anything about capacity of the (fibre) line out from the exchange?

Plusnet accepted an order from me in 2008 - but then backed out, so perhaps they are not as dim as you think. Presumably the exchange is better for them now.

In reply to a post by asker:

0.5 Mbps was a very welcome upgrade from dialup and seemed fast at the time. The next upgrade was Spring 2011. Currently I get a speed of 6 to 7 Mbps - even at peak times. Does that say anything about capacity of the (fibre) line out from the exchange?

Plusnet accepted an order from me in 2008 - but then backed out, so perhaps they are not as dim as you think. Presumably the exchange is better for them now.

It could be a microwave link.

I would hope it's a fibre link though and if so would be 100Mbit minimum

Edit> I've done a bit of digging and found a post on this very forum. Apparently Exchange Activate bonds multiple copper lines (EFM basically). Depending on the distance to the larger exchange the speed of Exchange Activate backhaul using these bonded pairs is between 2Mb and 34Mb.

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-May-15 17:43:54)