Going direct to Openreach

Hello everyone,

I'll try to make this post as simple as possible - I may give a lot of information later on! Sister has broadband + phone with Fuel Broadband (formerly Primus) for a few years now, no problems but wants to get a cheaper deal elsewhere - we've tried to sign up with many other ISPs but they all tell us there's no line at her house.

Fuel have now told us that the line is shown as actually being active at the house down the road, and that we need to contact Openreach to update the PAF database.

I was under the impression that we couldn't contact Openreach - that's something only an ISP can do.

Any advice, please?

If current provider knows things are wrong then they are ideally placed to resolve it, if you reported a fault highly likely that engineers would go to the wrong place for example.

Fuel may have used a full LLU connection from their wholesaler and thus telephone number look ups would often fail, is that what you are referring to?

If I've understood you correctly...

When I give the telephone number and address to sign up with other ISPs, they generally tell us there's "no BT line" - I have asked one or two to explain further, and they tell me it's not on the Openreach database - someone at SSE referred to their own "singularity database". More than one provider have told me that LLU lines should still be showing on their database / Openreach - so why isn't ours?

Edited by deleted (Tue 22-Sep-15 23:17:16)

More than one provider have told me that LLU lines should still be showing on their database / Openreach - so why isn't ours?

Probably because, as Fuel have told you, the number is recorded as being connected to a different address,

OK, that explains that one.

But as for my original question - who do I speak to at Openreach to get this sorted? Do Openreach deal with homeowners? I have already tried Openreach and they told me absolutely not.

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Sep-15 08:04:16)

Your ISP deal with it as they have the contract with you

In reply to a post by chipperson:

OK, that explains that one.

But as for my original question - who do I speak to at Openreach to get this sorted? Do Openreach deal with homeowners? I have already tried Openreach and they told me absolutely not.

First of all I want to wish you good luck in resolving your issue with Openreach.
I have been trying for nearly three months to get Openreach to sort out my problem and there is still no light at the end of the tunnel. It is all very well saying your ISP will deal with it but their hands are tied and can only rely on Openreach being cooperative. I have in fact contacted Openreach directly and
this has made not one bit of difference. Apologies for not being more positive but as far as I am concerned until the BT monopoly is ended this is the sort of poor service level we can expect.

Firstly - BT is NOT a monopoly. They may be the major provider but there is nothing to stop Sky, TalkTalk or any of the others building their own network.

And do not blame BT for your not being permitted to speak directly to OR - that is enforced by OFCOM.

BT is a monopoly and you can speak to Openreach directly it just takes a little more effort.

I forgot to mention that Fuel stated Ofcom guidelines say it's my job to speak to Openreach!

I rang Ofcom today, and as expected, they told me it's the ISP's job.

In reply to a post by chipperson:

I forgot to mention that Fuel stated Ofcom guidelines say it's my job to speak to Openreach!

I rang Ofcom today, and as expected, they told me it's the ISP's job.

This made me think of this from your first post:

In reply to a post by chipperson:

Sister has broadband + phone with Fuel Broadband (formerly Primus) for a few years now, no problems but wants to get a cheaper deal elsewhere

A decent ISP could probably resolve this for you. These are the kinds of issues where paying a little more rather than obsessively looking for the absolute cheapest, bargain basement deal has some value.

I hope you can find some way to resolve this. It is, however, entirely down to the ISP to get the issue fixed. Your sister's contract is with them. They are in turn renting the line from Openreach, possibly through an intermediary.

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Sep-15 14:59:26)

BT is a monopoly

BT is far from being a monopoly. It might be the only landline provider at a particular postcode but that does not make it a monopoly.

It's the USO which makes BT a monopoly.

In reply to a post by chipperson:

we've tried to sign up with many other ISPs but they all tell us there's no line at her house.

Looking at this from another angle. What happens if you order a new line?

Presumably Openreach will come out find there is already a line and use that, then update their database: job done.

Edited by hk11 (Wed 23-Sep-15 16:52:53)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

A decent ISP could probably resolve this for you. These are the kinds of issues where paying a little more rather than obsessively looking for the absolute cheapest, bargain basement deal has some value.

Yes indeed. Primus were reasonably cheap when sister joined up (which wasn't without its problems), now they're one of the more expensive, and certainly not value for money.

In reply to a post by hk11:

Looking at this from another angle. What happens if you order a new line?

That's something she's considering, although of course doing that will incur extra charges. I don't want all this to sound like I'm obsessed about doing things on the cheap, but what grates with me is that it's extra money my sister shouldn't have to be spending.

In reply to a post by chipperson:

although of course doing that will incur extra charges.

Not if they don't actually fit/install a new line. That was my point.

I guess there couldn't have been any issues when your sister originally signed up with Primus for phone and broadband, was that her first ISP at that address?

In reply to a post by hk11:

Not if they don't actually fit/install a new line. That was my point.

If it was me I might take the chance, although I suspect an upfront payment (for a new line) wouldn't be refunded if an engineer's visit had been necessary, existing line or not. I also don't want to run the risk of my sister losing her number, although I understand that you don't think that would happen.

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Sep-15 18:28:09)

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

I guess there couldn't have been any issues when your sister originally signed up with Primus for phone and broadband, was that her first ISP at that address?

Sister went with Primus when she moved in because it was free to activate a new number - the previous owners took their number with them, I seem to recall. It took several weeks, to her dismay and my annoyance. Once it was finally up and running, it was fine.

Have you asked "what would happen if"?

Or how about order just on the phone number?

OpenReach CEO. Why not tell him what a shower he runs?

[email protected]

I don't believe that Openreach are responsible for my sister's predicament, but thanks anyway.

In reply to a post by hk11:

Have you asked "what would happen if"?

Or how about order just on the phone number?

Every provider I speak to (or deal with online) tells me there's no BT line for that phone number, that's part of the problem. When we delve further and they do an address search, the phone number is shown as active at the house down the road.

I've asked "what would happen if" lots of times - a new number at my sister's house would involve extra payment upfront as already stated, and no-one (quite understandably) is willing to take on the existing number, because it's shown as belonging to someone else's property.

In reply to a post by chipperson:

Every provider I speak to (or deal with online) tells me there's no BT line for that phone number,

So who does the number belong to?

In reply to a post by chipperson:

it's shown as belonging to someone else's property.

Can they order for your sister then?

That can happen if the number has come from a pool of numbers that was never a BT block, e.g. are from a LLU provider, so the other providers don't recognise the number, but a migration and number port should be possible.

Or last BT record was at the previous address and Fuel or their provider never updated the records, Fuel are the people can verify your identity and access to the number thus are the ones who should be resolving the database issue. The fact they did things like refer you to Ofcom incorrectly suggests they have no clue and you should submit a complaint to Ofcom about actions that are impeding a migration.

You're quite right about the LLU. If only the address was her own she could have migrated and ported the number without any trouble.

I submitted a formal complaint to Ofcom yesterday, and once sister has migrated I'll be seeking compensation from Fuel.

Hi, I'm back, with a quick post to say that this affair is now sorted.

Fuel Broadband got Openreach to update the address on my sister's line, and she migrated from them in November last year. I went to the Ombudsman, and got a letter of apology and £60 a few weeks ago. Better than nothing, I suppose. The apology might as well have been written in crayon, apparently "mistakes are unavoidable". The payment was even late due to the relevant person being on holiday. But hey ho, 60 quid is 60 quid.

As everyone but Fuel Broadband knew, it's not the end user's job to deal with Openreach. Even a director at Fuel got it wrong (wish I'd asked which director it was). So the company were "doing [me] a favour" to quote one rude woman I spoke to. I did ask for copies of the Ofcom guidance which Fuel referred to as saying it was my job, but I never got it. Surprising, I know.

Coupled with general bad customer service, missing callbacks etc, data protection issues (random mobile numbers being added to sister's file), I'm very glad it's done and dusted.

Thanks to MrSaffron, Ignitionnet, and Apprentice for the good advice.