Exchange Only Lines

I keep reading news of the latest Gigabit/G-Fast/LR-VDSL projects, and I know some of those will be addressing EO lines, but is there any concerted effort to resolve the general problem? Or is it being done (not done) on a case by case basis?

While I'm happy for people that are having their ADSL2+/FTTC upgraded, I do feel rather left out having to make do with 20CN ADSL, and irritated that it seems that the priority is to upgrade people in urban areas that have already benefited from ADSL2+/FTTC (I know that it is because it is cheaper and they can make more money, but I'd be happy to pay much more for a better connection).

There is no one size fits all strategy when money and timescales are a conaideration, so its a case by case basis.

If you could provide your postcode, some forum members may be able to shed some light if there are any, even rough plans for your area.

Slow EO lines are by no means confined to rural areas. There being very many in the major cities a prime example being the Rotherhithe area of London. In our case, Vauxhall London, we were a group of 75 properties with slow EO lines and we clubbed together and gap funded BT to provide us with FTTC connections by way of a community gap funded network rearrangement whereby an AIO cab was installed close to our properties.

Edit: Not sure why I wrote Shoreditch when I meant Rotherhithe. Brain fade.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Jul-17 23:21:47)

MY query was general rather than specifically my area, which is due to get Gigaclear coverage by the end of 2019 (if all goes to plan), but for the record I'm on the Netherend exchange.

The Gigaclear business offering (if/when it becomes available) isn't very attractive as it will cost £1000+ installation/activation and then a minimum of £100 + extra for bridge mode per month, limited SLA , contention, and no IPv6.

My neighbours and I have looked at the BT Fibre Partnership deals to gap fund our neighbourhood, but there are too few close enough together to be viable. (a couple of businesses have relocated so it is even less viable now).

The alternative is a leased line, which costs more, but has no contention and a better SLA. I can't quite bring myself to commit to a 3 year leased line contract yet, but it may be the best option, and I may go down that route in a couple of months.

However, I'd be happy with ADSL2, as I should be able to get 18Mbps, and 1Mbps up, which I could live with.

The community funded partnership doesn't have to be FTTC, it can be FTTP too.

The general answer is that Exchange Only lines are diminishing rapidly in the amount that exist.

G.fast is not involved in removing presence of EO, its full fibre, VDSL2 and cable broadband that is making them less of a problem.

No total solution has been proposed, since EO close to an ADSL2+ exchange will meet the 10 Mbps USO

Actually, none of those mentioned will address EO lines. (not user what Gigabit is, though). G.Fast and LR-VDSL require a cabinet to work with, and they are just projects to improve speeds of FTTC connections.

Basically, there is no other way to improve EO line speeds but to do some digging. Either they need to dig to deliver fibre to premises, or they need to dig, build a cabinet and rearrange your lines there. Openreach are very reluctant to do that unless there is gap funding, which means almost all EO line rearrangement projects have happened in BDUK areas and Scotland/Wales/NI where devolved administrations have budgets for that.

Urban EO line areas without BDUK money are currently in limbo but things will probably improve in the foreseeable future because of USO.

If your area does not have enough homes to support FTTC, you could always ask how much a FTTP solution would cost. It might be cheaper as the amount of digging remains the same but they do not need to invest into cabinet infrastructure and arrange power to a cabinet. It may still be too expensive, but you can always ask.

The solutions for EO lines are these:
- Add a PCP cabinet, re-arrange copper into PCP, add an FTTC twin
- Add an All-in-one cabinet (AIO) - a combined PCP and FTTC DSLAM
- Overlay with FTTP fibre.

The choice will be down to the costs involved, so every place is bespoke.

BT are also running a programme to upgrade all remaining 20CN exchanges to 21CN by the end of 2018.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting those technologies as a solution for EO lines (apart from the gigabit FTTP such as Gigaclear are installing - but I guess that ignores the EO line rather than solving the problem), but as things that are taking a lot of attention and funding. I was wondering whether there was anything that was addressing EO lines.

My exchange used to have mostly EO lines. As part of the BDUK FTTC funding many were transferred to one of two cabinets. The remaining 30% of lines that are still EO wouldn't have met the minimum 24Mbps that is required for BDUK funding so were deliberately ignored. BT/OR have told me that a line rearrangement isn't cost effective so won't happen.

Due to the way the remaining EO properties are spread out, the BT funding option means that in the cluster of properties at my end of the village we'd be looking at £5k per property for FTTP - which is a bit steep for most people (I'd pay that if I could them get a reasonable monthly payment).

Virgin Business could provide a leased line, but have a 3 year term and leased line monthly prices (this is probably the solution I will have to go with).

Fastershire's solution is Gigaclear, who have the contract to provide FTTP to 63% of the properties without fast broadband, and should be installed before the end of 2019.

As for the upgrade of 20CN to 21CN, that doesn't seem to be a solution to EO lines either.

Edited by sheephouse (Wed 26-Jul-17 16:04:05)

"enough homes to support FTTC, you could always ask how much a FTTP solution would cost. It might be cheaper as the amount of digging remains the same "

Are you sure ? i think for FTTP there is a lot more digging unless you are very lucky ie duct and boxes are all in place and can be used.

Yes i am one of those sad saps living in shouting range of the big boys in canary wharf and all icould get normally 3-4 mbits but been lucky and have been able to get Relish (4G 30mbits) but i know this is coming to an end as new housing development is just starting and will block my line of site to the mast and kill my speed, BT/OR in their wisdon have sod all planned for me so even if they said yes we will do something it will take over a year.

Your not the only one living in the dark ages and to be honest i don't expect anything to improve round here for at least 3 years maybe even longer.

All1

In reply to a post by MC31:

"enough homes to support FTTC, you could always ask how much a FTTP solution would cost. It might be cheaper as the amount of digging remains the same "

Are you sure ? i think for FTTP there is a lot more digging unless you are very lucky ie duct and boxes are all in place and can be used.

Maybe I was lucky, the only digging was for the chamber on the phone pole before mine, where they had to make it larger to fit the FibreDP to the inner wall.

Then after installing all the DP's and Manifold's, BT decides to not give them FTTP, but to then pay even more money to install a fibre cabinet and give that to them.

That makes perfect sense to me LOL.

But yeah, FTTC should require less digging up than FTTP, like the connections between each chambers might not be large enough to also include the fibre cables, ours had loads of space.

Paul

Canary Wharf is one of the worst, friends I have out there also have constant drop outs. The BT network in that area is poor, attenuations of 63db are common, 3Mbps slap bang in the city.

Rotherhithe, Canary Wharf, Wapping and parts of Poplar form the bulk of London's super slow lines. All are former docklands, where lines meander around former docks instead of following current streets, local cabling is aluminium and not copper, 40% of the lines are exchange only and exchanges are far away even as the crow flies as there was no need to build a telephone exchange in a working harbour.

These areas were also converted to residential use only recently, mostly after cable tv heyday, so these areas probably do not have Virgin either.

Then there is the problem of Openreach and Ofcom regulation. There is no commercial reason to upgrade any of these lines. Most of us need the slow connection anyway, so they are generating money to OR instead of being inactive. If they upgraded our lines to something better, they would need to spend money but would earn exactly as much, as their line rental charge for 2Mbps EO line and FTTC line is the same.

Another problem is or was EU state aid rules. Government money was available to improve connectivity in rural areas, which excluded London and a couple of other places from any government money to solve the problem.

The third problem is London but especially these areas being transitional places. Not too many residents come to these areas to stay for life, for many reasons. Trying to raise gap funding from a non-existent community only staying temporarily in their own minds, has not produced to my best knowledge a single success story this far in these areas. Or actually I am wrong here. Of course there have been many success stories, but with Hyperoptic if the building is large enough to attract their interest. This does not require any gap funding, just a decision to let them in.

The current situation is the sum of many things, and no one has done anything wrong. Cabling decisions made when homes were built in the early 90's made perfect sense then. Pricing model geared to provide cheap connections for the 95% or so of the nation instead of forcing the vast majority to chip in to help the remaining 5% makes perfect sense for everyone in the 95%. Again, from the perspective of the 95%, it makes much more sense to give public money to NHS instead of telephone line rearrangement projects. And tenants and buy to let landlords who are not interested in providing any funds that cannot be collected in higher rent, or would benefit the next tenant or the one after them, make a sensible decision from their standpoint.

I do not have high hopes of anything major happening in the foreseeable future. Eventually USO might bring some help starting from 2020, but at that time and already now the main focus is to improve FTTC speeds from whatever it averages now.

H

Edited by deleted (Fri 28-Jul-17 11:54:40)

Are these EO lines on 20CN?

I haven't quite got it clear in my mind whether the replacement of 20CN exchanges will help EO lines at all or whether it is an entirely orthogonal issue.

Anyway, today I have had a reply from Openreach that confirms that they have no plans at all to upgrade my exchange (Netherend) or to address the remaining EO lines, so I assume that it will remain as a 20CN exchange until after the USO comes in.

Can anyone tell me whether the USO will require BT to provide a connection if there is a non-BT alternative available (all be it at a higher price)? I'm wondering whether they will simply abandon the EO lines for broadband in areas like mine if there is Gigaclear or even satellite available, rather than spend a lot of money to keep a group of customers that they see as uneconomic to upgrade.

Edited by sheephouse (Fri 28-Jul-17 12:46:28)

How I understand USO is that no one needs to provide anything if there already is a faster alternative. I am not sure what will be the situation if the alternative is a 4g service that provides over-USO speeds only at night and is severely congested at evening peak.

If you have Gigaclear available but do not want to subscribe for being too expensive, I do not think USO will change anything in your case. Your area then meets USO requirement, as one provider is enough.

The third problem is London but especially these areas being transitional places. Not too many residents come to these areas to stay for life, for many reasons. Trying to raise gap funding from a non-existent community only staying temporarily in their own minds, has not produced to my best knowledge a single success story this far in these areas.

Living on a development of 75 properties in Camberwell on the Vauxhall exchange that has gap funded an AIO cab to upgrade our slow EO lines I think there is one point that you are overlooking. Namely tenants have power in much the same way as property buyers. Roughly two-thirds of the properties here are not owner-occupied however landlords were starting to experience some difficulty in renting their property, or at least for the rent they wanted, due to the development being a slow-spot surrounded by properties with access to a fast FTTC service and in many cases VM cable. Landlords were losing tenants whilst those they got were often having to have 2 BT lines to serve the needs of the occupants. As a result the non-resident landlords were as keen as the residents to see faster broadband available on the development.

Our "community" is at best 8, and in practice only 3-4 max would be willing and able to contribute. This is why I have not been too eager to contact OR about it, as their quote will most likely be far too expensive. I also fear if we show any interest in a community project, we will be pushed to the bottom of the pile in their upgrade plans. This may just be me being paranoid, there is nothing to substantiate this.

Neighbouring large buildings have already FTTC, Hyperoptic or Virgin. There would be about 25 townhouses a bit farther away, but this creates another problem, as it would mean then FTTC instead of FTTP.

A friend of mine got his line rearranged to a cabinet in Rotherhithe a couple of months ago. Oh the joy. Except that he can get 21 Mbps down, downstream handback for his line is 18.9 Mbps (10.2 for "impacted", not sure which one to use). He is not that far away from the cabinet. Nor next to it, but if I included the townhouses in my community project and the cabinet would be there, it would be pretty much the same distance.

Sure, 21Mbps is better than 2Mbps, but I would not be happy to pay £1000+ to get that. The local cabling is aluminium, which complicates things. For him, I fear, this is the end of line until 2025 or so, and 21 Mbps will not be enough in 2020. It is barely enough for 4K streaming now. There is probably no way he will ever benefit from G.Fast or any future products until a FTTP roll out, and he is now low priority as his line meets USO unlike us.

I still hope to get Hyperoptic one of these days if there are no complications, but this area is a nightmare for community FTTC projects as the cabinet would need to be very close. FTTP projects might be a different thing but not sure if they make any financial sense with only 3 contributors. I will go and ask in Autumn if the currently ongoing council investigation leads to nothing and I have not been able to get Hyperoptic.

H

If an area has Gigaclear then USO will mean nothing

That's what I guessed.

So, as a small "business" user by Gigaclear's criteria, if/when I get FTTP (target is by the end of 2019), I'll be facing a minimum monthly cost several times larger than businesses up the road with FTTC, after an installation cost >£1000.

So will BT bother upgrading 20CN areas that have an alternative from another provider, or will they just abandon such areas? OR told me last week they have no plans for the remaining EO lines on our 20CN exchange. They have previously told me they have no plans for ADSL2+ at my exchange. I would settle for ADSL2+ rather than Gigaclear, but it doesn't look as if that will happen.

We�ve known for a while that Openreach will ensure everyone can order at least 10Mb by 2020. Your exchange only line will be no different.

I live in the West End of Glasgow with an Exchange Only line. EE contacted me recently to say I can upgrade to fibre for an additional 5p!

From the Openreach site I found these details:
Exchange name: Glasgow Western
Exchange status: Fibre enabled
Cabinet number: 87
Technology: FTTC

Can someone confirm that the fibre will be to the exchange only and the remainder over my normal phone line. If so, will I notice any substantial difference over my current speed of 13mbps.

Thanks for any information/advice.

fibre will be to the cabinet and remainder over copper

You can do an additional check with your phone number at https://dslchecker.bt.com

Thanks witchunt; hopefully I'll see an improvement when watching iPlayer, Netflix etc.

Thanks Batboy, an interesting link

Are you going to divulge what the interesting link revealed for your telephone line?

I would if I could post a screen print!

You will have to take a screen shot, blank out your telephone number and host somewhere like postimg.org and show us the link here.

Thanks, here it is https://s2.postimg.org/4xjsp2at5/Capture.jpg

Any expert views are welcome

Looks like you line has been routed through a cabinet.

Get your order in!

Does it give a cabinet number at the top ?

Yes: Exchange WESTERN is served by Cabinet 87

It's a cab that was activated in April this year.

Unsure if it's an all in one or standard PCP with a fibre twin but it would seem your line has now been rearranged to go through it.

So there you re, you aren't on a EO line after all and you can order Fibre to the Cabinet. You should expect speeds of 55Mbps which will greatly improve your streaming quality. Not bad for 5p

I've been following this thread with interest as I live in a property with an EO line in North London (exchange code CLUPP). What info would I need to provide to the knowledgeable folks here to get similar insight in to whether I ever have the prospect of getting FTTC/FTTP?

Follow the steps above from here: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4560643-e...

Aha - I should have said, we don't have a phone line (I didn't want to pay for one to get 5Mb ADSL!). I used the address checker instead.

Result here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9vdhnmu52wrduf8/Screen%20S...

I blanked my address. I hope that's not rude. Let me know if it's needed...

Really appreciate any insight anyone might have. Thanks.

Insight is its Central London with no BDUK project, so unless someone pays or the commercial roll-outs arrive then you will be waiting for the 2020-2022 period and USO based options.

Some more central parts are getting EO to FTTP as part of the commercial roll-out to business type areas.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/258240

They have NO plans to upgrade as ADSL is ok.... Im forcing this through

Doubt a political petition is going to make any difference to the providers - parliament generally doesn't dictate what is done in this and rollouts are already happening in a number of areas - I believe a fair amount of EO lines have had either cabinets installed for FTTC or they've had FTTP. Good luck with your petition but I think you are whistling in the wind if you think it will change anything.

Cannot support the petition myself simply because things are happening for EO lines, but it is not in a bulk 100% manner.

The petition makes no acknowledgement that things are changing in some areas, either commercially or via funded routes. It also makes the total flaw that Openreach IS the UK broadband provider, while they have a dominate position there are many others who can and do serve EO areas without any 'unlocking'.

The use of the word unlocking is unfortunate - since it is essentially meaningless and for many it may bring echoes of the word unbundling which is already available.

As exchange only lines tend to have varied circumstances a more targeted local campaign is more likely to work, as well as researching the history of why the area is EO line based and what obstacles are stopping alternate providers from offering their own services e..g Virgin Media, Hyperoptic to name just two.

I don't know where he got this from either:- "Exchange only lines are those that do not have a cabinet and are usually feet from the exchange".

AIUI an awful lot are miles from the exchange. Also, those that are very close to it are almost certainly exceeding the forthcoming 10Mbps USO anyway so will quite justifiably not be the highest priority for (any party of) government or Ofcom. Those far away will be covered by the USO.

He's picked up two sigs today though. Now has 14, in just over a fortnight, though of course he had to drum up at least 5 personally to get it published. He has a long way to go re: "Im forcing this through."