Stopping openreach having access to dig

I've had numerous issues with my broadband over the years necessitating multiple digs both outside my property and in or adjacent to the dropped kerbs and the verges of iirc six of my neighbours. There were holes for five months on and off a year or so ago and eventually, after a dozen engineers visits, they properly fixed a very bodged repair from 5+ years back (jelly crimp join wrapped in a plastic bag and sealed with pvc tape, zero mechanical protection and buried 50mm below the access ramp surface)

Now Openreach are back again, investigating a reprovisioning issue nearby and want to re-dig one of their previous excavations up the road. A neighbour went ballistic when he saw the markings and came to see me thinking it was my line again. My line is ok (for now) but knowing the mess of the past I doubt it will be for very much longer

He's now pressure washed all evidence of the openreach applied dig markings and parked his spare vehicle across his dropped kerb thereby preventing openreach from digging up the road and the ramp from the road to his drive. There is space for him to park his other vehicle on the road without causing an obstruction.

Can Openreach get him to move the vehicle from the area of the proposed dig? I really can't see him moving it before hell freezes over or he need his MOT renewing

BT have code powers, some details here. I am not sure if BT can have vehicles removed that are blocking their legal right to access their equipment but they may well be able to. They also can go to the courts for a court order - maybe your neighbour isn't aware of the powers BT have as a comms provider and what could happen to them if they obstruct BT's access to their plant.

Thanks for that. Clearly powers to essentially do what they like when they like and how they like.

I think he's aware he's probably on dodgy ground and I'm not just referring to the poor quality of backfill compaction.

I got the impression he wants to cause them as much grief as he can such that when they actually dig they are in and out in half an hour and he's not having to drive through a pile of eroding and spreading subsoil for months on end like it was during the period with my numerous faults

Right now they'd need to get a limbo dancer equipped with a tea spoon to start digging

If they�re in and out quickly then you can be sure they won�t do a good job.

Better they take their time.

Also bear in mind that the actual dig is usually done by contractors, and a Openreach turn up the day after to do the network work.

I experienced a similar issue a few years back, whereby a neighbour dumped a car right over where Virgin Media needed to do some digging. After I reported it, Virgin were very keen to make sure it got moved ASAP so they could carry on with the work they needed to do. It was eventually towed away after a couple of weeks. I know it's not Openreach, but hopefully they'll adopt a similar approach if it's essential work required to prevent a loss of service.

Maybe your neighbour will change his tune when his phone line packs up.

If 'they' where to get arsey about your neighbours action they could also make life more difficult for him, getting a PCN issued for parking across a dropped kerb would be a start.

So your nieghbour has delayed another nieghbour getting service by their selfish actions. Clever stuff.

In reply to a post by burble:

If 'they' where to get arsey about your neighbours action they could also make life more difficult for him, getting a PCN issued for parking across a dropped kerb would be a start.

It's his own dropped kerb he is parking across. It's not shared. He's not preventing access to pedestrians either, just Openreach.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So your nieghbour has delayed another nieghbour getting service by their selfish actions. Clever stuff.

He's technically not delayed anyone just yet, I was chatting to a Openreach cable tracer bloke a few days ago (I was out cutting the grass) and even though he reckoned he'd been on the street before he was having no luck finding where the cables ran or crossed the road. I then pointed out the repair patches in the road every few metres all the way to a pair of 'PO' underground chambers 100+ metres away where there is a road crossing. But confusingly the road is fed from two directions from the same cabinet with crossings laid in the road, some deep and some nearer the surface.

The pavements were all relaid a while ago and have a section 58 no-dig for the next three or four years not that that will stop work as there have since been numerous BT Gas & Water excavations.

Openreach also need a permit before starting work and as yet there is nothing showing online.

I suppose he better check he's taxed and insured the potentially offending vehicle

In reply to a post by M100:

In reply to a post by burble:

If 'they' where to get arsey about your neighbours action they could also make life more difficult for him, getting a PCN issued for parking across a dropped kerb would be a start.

It's his own dropped kerb he is parking across. It's not shared. He's not preventing access to pedestrians either, just Openreach.

Doesn't matter, a PCN can still be issued, he would then have to ask for it to be cancelled.

I once parked my car on a pavement and when I came back I found my car further down the road, I spoke to a local to find that some British Gas contractors had bumped it down the road so they could dig up the pavement. No damage to my car so no complaints from me.

What's a drop kerb got to do with traffic law?

Please state which part of the highway code is relevant.

The Highway Code isn�t law ..... .

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What's a drop kerb got to do with traffic law?

Please state which part of the highway code is relevant.

Quite a lot according to the Traffic Management Act 2004.

And if you want advice on how a driver should react to the Traffic Management Act 2004 in regard to dropped kerbs, Highway Code Rule 243 will help you.

There you go.

Its been in civil enforcement powers for years, I know of no statutory exemption for parking across a dropped kerb that allows access to your property. Certainly it wasnt in any of the boroughs where I have worked in civil enforcement.

Edited by deleted (Wed 22-May-19 22:17:23)

In reply to a post by M100:

In reply to a post by burble:

If 'they' where to get arsey about your neighbours action they could also make life more difficult for him, getting a PCN issued for parking across a dropped kerb would be a start.

It's his own dropped kerb he is parking across. It's not shared. He's not preventing access to pedestrians either, just Openreach.

It is not his own "dropped Kerb" - unless it is a private road - Footways are the property of the local Highways Authority

In reply to a post by michaelh:

It is not his own "dropped Kerb" - unless it is a private road - Footways are the property of the local Highways Authority

I believe this to be true in most cases but I do believe there are some excepts.

Picture a road/avenue/lane where the pavements/footways are very wide and also include a lawned area in front of each property and each properties driveway extends to the kerb (normally using identical unbroken material from the property to the kerb) I have always been advised (as a rule of thumb) that these are the property of the owner of the house all the way to the highway including the footway that crosses the driveway.

My copy of the Highway Code uses the terms:

important advice
rules
road traffic law
road traffic act

and it states " A failure on the part of a person to observe any provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind, but any such failure may in any proceedings , etc, etc."

Must Not and Should Not are two different things. I don't know why but that's how they are worded in The Highway Code

Laws in London are different to the rest of England but are being rolled out.

Parking on footpaths, bends, etc is a grey area outside of London.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

My copy of the Highway Code uses the terms:

important advice
rules
road traffic law
road traffic act

and it states " A failure on the part of a person to observe any provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind, but any such failure may in any proceedings , etc, etc."

Which is why I made my post. I'm not sure why you felt the need to explain it to me in such detail.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by michaelh:

It is not his own "dropped Kerb" - unless it is a private road - Footways are the property of the local Highways Authority

I believe this to be true in most cases but I do believe there are some excepts.

Picture a road/avenue/lane where the pavements/footways are very wide and also include a lawned area in front of each property and each properties driveway extends to the kerb (normally using identical unbroken material from the property to the kerb) I have always been advised (as a rule of thumb) that these are the property of the owner of the house all the way to the highway including the footway that crosses the driveway.

So have you also been advised (as a rule of thumb) that the householder is liable for maintaining the footway - and is liable for any accident which a pedestrian might suffer as a result of failing to maintain said footway properly?

In reply to a post by michaelh:

So have you also been advised (as a rule of thumb) that the householder is liable for maintaining the footway - and is liable for any accident which a pedestrian might suffer as a result of failing to maintain said footway properly?

That would be my assumption as well (don't need a rule of thumb for that).

In safety critical areas it is often said that "assume" makes an ass of u and me.

This is not so safety critical but still shows that assumption does not necessarily give a totally correct answer. Taking a random answer from the multitude of local authority sites offering advice and guidance about dropped kerbs Merthyr Tydfil Borough Council's dropped kerb page (https://www.merthyr.gov.uk/media/2672/faqs-for-dropp...) includes:

Quote

Who owns the crossing on completion?
The construction of a vehicle crossing by MTCBC does not give the occupier of the premises any legal right of ownership to the land or license to police that crossing or any restriction to its existing state. The crossing remains part of the public highway and therefore available for public use. The responsibility for its maintenance rests with MTCBC.

However, your new crossing does provide full acceptable rights to drive across the footway/highway land to gain access to your (your landlords) property or use of land developed and deemed suitable for off road parking.'''

End Quote

Other local authorities give similar advice although not all cover the maintenance point and some claim that it is illegal to park a car between the dropped kerb and the boundary to the property as this may cause obstruction to the footway.

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 24-May-19 07:31:18)

Sounds to me that your evidence is referring to a typical street where a typical narrow pavement is located in front of the bound of the properties. I never disagreed that your case the pavement would remain the ownership of the local authority regardless of who paid for the dropped kerb to be installed and agree the owner of the said property does not have additional rights other that to be able to cross the pavement with a vehicle onto their property.

That was not the scenario I was trying to paint, maybe the location where you reside doesn't contain properties/pavements like the one I described but they do exist and the local authority do not own those pavements.

Being the internet we can go around this loop forever...

The answer is to consult the legal paperwork for an individual property, since this should continue details on things like extent of property and rights of access.

In reply to a post by dect:

That would be my assumption as well (don't need a rule of thumb for that).

Assumption is the mother of all f$%k ups.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by dect:

That would be my assumption as well (don't need a rule of thumb for that).

Assumption is the mother of all f$%k ups.

Assumptions i've made in life (and i'm well retired) haven't done me any harm, maybe I am just lucky

Edited by deleted (Fri 24-May-19 10:20:32)

In reply to a post by dect:

Sounds to me that your evidence is referring to a typical street where a typical narrow pavement is located in front of the bound of the properties. I never disagreed that your case the pavement would remain the ownership of the local authority regardless of who paid for the dropped kerb to be installed and agree the owner of the said property does not have additional rights other that to be able to cross the pavement with a vehicle onto their property.

That was not the scenario I was trying to paint, maybe the location where you reside doesn't contain properties/pavements like the one I described but they do exist and the local authority do not own those pavements.

Well there's another assumption or two that could get you into trouble.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

that could get you into trouble.

Seems like you are not immune to making assumptions yourself with this comment.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

that could get you into trouble.

Seems like you are not immune to making assumptions yourself with this comment.

Please explain.

"The Highway Code isn�t law" ------- "road traffic law"
The above was aimed at yourself.

The rest was for general consumption.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

that could get you into trouble.

Seems like you are not immune to making assumptions yourself with this comment.

Please explain.

I am surprised that you need an explanation, For the record I appreciate that you did say 'please' a word that doesn't seem to be used by a lot of people these days.

In reply to a post by dect:

I am surprised that you need an explanation, For the record I appreciate that you did say 'please' a word that doesn't seem to be used by a lot of people these days.

If you are the age that seems likely from your previous comments (please note not an assumption, a deduction from things you have written) then you will remember a single released by The Who in 1965. Perhaps "I Can't Explain" sums up the recent correspondence.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

If you are the age that seems likely from your previous comments (please note not an assumption, a deduction from things you have written) then you will remember a single released by The Who in 1965. Perhaps "I Can't Explain" sums up the recent correspondence.

And there was me thinking "I Can�t Get No Satisfaction" from these recent correspondence

It's his own dropped kerb he is parking across. It's not shared. He's not preventing access to pedestrians either, just Openreach.

Doesn't matter, a PCN can still be issued, he would then have to ask for it to be cancelled.

Incorrect, he is actually able to park across his own dropped curb - there are some basic rules to follow but he cannot be issued a PCN if he is only blocking his own access as he has the right to grant consent to park over it.

In reply to a post by therioman:

Incorrect, he is actually able to park across his own dropped curb - there are some basic rules to follow but he cannot be issued a PCN if he is only blocking his own access as he has the right to grant consent to park over it.

Not according to this article

Parking a vehicle fully or partially across a dropped kerb is classed as an obstruction and either the police or local council can enforce the contravention. ... As ridiculous as it may seem, you can be issued a PCN for parking across your own dropped kerb.

Got to laugh, after being parked for two weeks round the clock he moved his vehicle for a delivery of building materials to be dropped direct on his drive and forgot about immediately blocking his drive again. According to a neighbour He was still moving the building materials when two openreach drop siders and a transit van turned up and parked either side of his driveway, erected barriers and immediately started digging. Result being a wide shallow hole (cables being only a few inches below the surface) across the driveway and grassed verge.

A few hours later they were gone and apart from a bit of mud on the road and a reseeded verge you'd never guess they had been there.

I hear his blood pressure prescription might need increasing

So someones blood pressure has risen over a job that needed doing and was left in good condition.

NOTE: If they did cross the driveway then indicates this is public land and not specifically part of the property, since to do this dig across your own property a way leave would be required.

If the person is convinced and has proof the drive way is legally theirs, i.e. on the property deeds and thus are responsible for its upkeep then their solicitor needs to be onto the case for trespass.