New one on me, connectivity NOT speed. Where's that covered?

Hi folks,

I never had to consider this one before. I need to get up to snuff with my knowledge about connectivity rather than speed.

I know there are guide lines and voluntary codes and all the good stuff Ofcom likes to bang on about.

Where does the matter of getting and staying connected get to be known about?

I've had some reduced luck of late and it seems this area is a bit greyer than the issue of what speed anyone might reasonably expect to see for a given line.

I need to gain an understanding so I can set about improving things. Just need to know where one is supposed to ask about it.

Many thanks for any guidance on the right place.

Total outage lasting more than two days gets compensation

Nothing on intermittent issues, so you are at mercy of iSP and making case, i.e. nothing is defined in stone for intermittent

From that I suppose one has to look for something radio based then.

I say that because the declared intent to switch to IP phones for normal phone supply means they will want to let the old copper cable rot in the ground.

It's odd, coming in to broadband back in the day, it was people chatting excitedly about who might be able to get it next. Seems it could soon see people talking about losing broadband in their area as the failures mount up, unchecked as they seem to be.

I don't doubt you are correct in there being no hope, I never saw that one coming, but I can see it now.

Sadly the radio based version is not yet affordable as far as I can know.

I'm not sure what might work for me, but I will have to find something that works: I'm housebound, no living relatives, was housebound when I moved here, so don't know anyone around here. As such I have no support network. I have lived autonomously via the internet for about 10-13 years, but that is now under threat I guess.

Looks unlikely to go anywhere good I am guessing. <shrug>

What exactly about your internet connection is under threat?

A new legal requirement where you can request a 10 Mbps down and 1 Mbps up connection is on its way in 2020.

Why do you think copper will be left to rot? By the way copper does not rot hence why copper antiquities can be dug up after 1000's of years. Initial moves to voice over broadband will often mean many are still using the copper so will not be left to rot and the repair metrics are getting stricter year on year as Ofcom increase the targets.

There is the push towards 50% full fibre coverage for 2025 followed by 100% for 2033 to look forward to.

Where, what and when depends greatly on where exactly you are living.

Roughly in order:

At present I detect it's ability to stay connected is diminishing. Sometimes it can go a few days, and other times it won't even manage a whole day.

This new legal requirement; presumably it's by the end of next year, and it does not sound like it is for ADSL. Those speeds for my area are simply not attainable unless you can and do afford fibre.

I have gained the impression BT would like copper to go away, things they have said or the way they have said other things suggest that it would be their desire.

I'd imagine those 1000 year old artifacts would not manage to support broadband, unless of course that is what they are using already which would explain a lot.

Hehe, Ofcom, funny ;o)

I live a very tricky 4 from the exchange. It claims on the checkers that I could get 5-6 down and 1 or maybe a little more up. Right this moment I'm at 4 down because the ISP capped it at 3 for me as that seemed more sensible since that reduced the frequency of the disconnects. I'm at 0.5 up, because that has been set to unlimited. (for all the good those settings did in reality)

I'm told that is what the "best efforts" amount to for today. Tomorrow, who can say?

But that is about speed, and as I said, I'm interested in connectivity, for which there appears not to be a legal requirement at all, unless I am wrong about that, and in that case you really must correct me. A connection which can last a week would be total luxury right now. Not seen that in quite a while.

If you have a fibre option but choose not to buy it for the £5 to £10 a month price difference (in many cases if out of contract on ADSL the fttc services can be cheaper) and the FTTC is at speeds over 10 Mbps then the USO will not apply

USO comes into effect in 2020

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If you have a fibre option but choose not to buy it for the £5 to £10 a month price difference (in many cases if out of contract on ADSL the fttc services can be cheaper) and the FTTC is at speeds over 10 Mbps then the USO will not apply

USO comes into effect in 2020

I don't know, if your budget does not stretch as far as the price, then is that still a case of choosing not to buy? I'm not sure that it is a choice by then.

So is that to say that if you don't have enough money, then USO is not applicable? It sounds like it might be, but you may have made a typo, I really can't say. Perhaps you can clarify that bit?

I don't think "bills not being paid" via online banking can wait until 2020 if that is what you were trying to convey.

USO defines reasonable priced service as £25/m

Cheapest ADSL is £17 or £17.99 a month, FTTC can be found for £22.50, so yes a difference and for someone with no money a push, in which case what I would recommend mobile since a mobile plan is probably alread on their budget is to just have the mobile for the freedom it provides.

When broadband first appeared in 2000, price was £50 a month, so once you allow for inflation it is substantially cheaper today.

Right now I pay a little more than that reasonable £25.00 figure, and have done for more than 10 years. Line rental on top of course.

I am housebound, and need a mobile rather less than a fish needs a bicycle.

However I suspect it does point to the need to go radio/wireless for the future. All of which is why I think copper might have a very limited future. Certainly for me and probably for others.

As for value for money, it may appear cheaper to you, but if there is so much less connectivity, then it's actually priced rather higher than you may be imagining. It's absence is inversely keeping up with inflation.

There seems little hope, because this is in the mended state, six weeks or so after the visit from the BT/Openreach engineer.

When here, they deemed my kit to be well above average, and accepted the 8 faults on their meter were all at the BT end of things. Having swapped out more than £1000 of BT kit most of those went away, and then changing the line from cabinet to the exchange saw all but one of the remaining problems on the test meter go away. A further day at the exchange saw that one off. The engineer was then pestered by a supervisor "persuading" the engineer to move on to the next as there had "already been enough money spent on this one".

So more than a grand and 2 days spent bringing things back to working order. It seems something else must have happened to their stuff this time. I sure could not say, but even as a layman, I can see this was not how it was meant to be, as far as I have been given to understand things anyway.

I wonder which sort of radio based solution can do better than this? <shrug>

Even though you have no need for a mobile, it can still be a very cost-effective solution. Depending entirely of course on the strength of the mobile signal at your house.

It is now possible to get speeds of the same as FTTC on a mobile phone for £20 per month, with unlimited minutes, unlimited data and unlimited texts. (Assuming the phone is out of contract so already been paid for or bought outright). The phone can be tethered wirelessly to computers and tablets providing full service.

See my sig. I have completely ditched my FTTC and landline. Several people on these forums have also done so. See the Mobile Broadband forum, showing threads active over the last 6 months .

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

When broadband first appeared in 2000, price was £50 a month, so once you allow for inflation it is substantially cheaper today.

In 1999 I had ntl cable 512k/128k at £40/m which required an ntl phoneline at £15/m. Slightly different pricing to ADSL.

In reply to a post by Curious_Child:

So is that to say that if you don't have enough money, then USO is not applicable? It sounds like it might be, but you may have made a typo, I really can't say. Perhaps you can clarify that bit?

That indicates that the USO is proposed in exactly the same way that Royal Mail has a USO to deliver to every address in the UK. Your letter will not be delivered unless the cost of postage is paid even though Royal Mail are in position to supply the service.

Mobile signal here is reported to be rubbish according to those who have them. Only 700 feet or less away too! <sigh>

It's a part of the world that is being left behind. It's happening around the UK sadly.

As part of a science survey, I need to call in to NOAA every 30 minutes and 24/7, I can't see a mobile phone working with that. Line based does not make it at present either.

I'm guessing it may require some sort of dongle plugged in to some sort of router. Am I at least down the right street with that thinking?

I heard speak of 3 at home or some such, it appears to have not been discussed on these forums for maybe a year. I take it this is no longer a thing?

I've no idea about mobiles as it never seemed like something I need. I may not be entirely thrilled by the idea but at least I am willing to find out if it can work. Not sure I know where to look and what a good deal might look like if I found the right place to look.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by Curious_Child:

So is that to say that if you don't have enough money, then USO is not applicable? It sounds like it might be, but you may have made a typo, I really can't say. Perhaps you can clarify that bit?

That indicates that the USO is proposed in exactly the same way that Royal Mail has a USO to deliver to every address in the UK. Your letter will not be delivered unless the cost of postage is paid even though Royal Mail are in position to supply the service.

OK, lets accept the the costs involved inhabit two vastly different orders of magnitude, because that is reality. Having gone there then yes, it looks on the face of it like a good analogy.

Right now keeping up with new ways of doing old things would require me to be able to absorb a 30% and more increase to the cost of a stamp. Seems quite a jump, one has to ask if that seems reasonable or not.

Around here the post office has no post boxes, and in recent months has closed the post office too.

BT are apeing that by not making what I pay for viable. I'm not sure that is for the good really.

Thanks for the thought though, the analogy was fun to see.

So you pay more than £25 when FTTC is available at £22.45 (just updated that packages pricing this morning for TalkTalk) and even BT offer a £26.99/m FTTC package

So can you actually get FTTC with speeds over 10 Mbps - if so your worries on the broadband USO are irrelevant.

I will admit to being confused about your broadband situation and what is and is not working.

First what has gone wrong is that it can not stay connected. I'm no expert, but it seems that my ISP's chap server might be going missing, (red light on modem normally for that error)

So as long as that happens then the connection (presumably) becomes no longer viable at that point. Certainly a reconnect is not possible unless the router is power cycled and even then it might not fix it.

Only thing which restores the line to a usable state is when the ISP make a line test and that seems to restore expected function. Worth noting that if you wanted to report a fault to BT then that too involves a line test before speaking to a human. That line test does not restore the ADSL.

At times of failure noise can sometimes be heard, but not after the ISP line test. A BT test for quiet line never sees the noise that the rest of us can hear.

I'm guessing it must be stronger magic or some other version of witchcraft from the ISP.

Also not helping is that profiles don't last very long before they go missing. Might work for a week at most, but more often than not they don't last a day.

As for what's to be had, well there's some stuff around 33-35 or so from my ISP. I probably can't absorb any connections cost without a considerable saving period. I would not shirk that effort if I could find some reason to have faith in it all, but right now that's a problem, obviously.

For what it's worth, it may help you to know that my line is via BTBasic. As such it's deemed a socially responsible line rental. The tarriff makes it impossible to afford making calls, but that's not an issue as I only want the broad band.

ISP say FTTC is there @ 40/10 and interestingly FTTP @ 40/10 which does not require a phone line. I bet there is a gotcha for the FTTP but I have no idea what it would be.

The gotcha on FTTP is that you have to order it and if FTTC at superfast speeds is available they may charge fractionally more.

The ISP authentication server vanishing (assuming sync stays up) suggests an ISP problem.

FTTP would not fix that - bit would resolve downtime when a modem resyncs

NOTE: If you are paying more than £25 including line rental for your broadband and money is very tight then moving to someone like TalkTalk at £17.95/m for their ADSL2+ (including line rental) is something to consider. This means moving away from BT Basic

Though why your bill is greater than £25 is a difficult one since BT Basic with ADSL2+ and 15GB data allowance should be £9.95 per month. https://btplc.com/Inclusion/ProductsAndServices/BTBa...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The gotcha on FTTP is that you have to order it and if FTTC at superfast speeds is available they may charge fractionally more.

The ISP authentication server vanishing (assuming sync stays up) suggests an ISP problem.

FTTP would not fix that - bit would resolve downtime when a modem resyncs

NOTE: If you are paying more than £25 including line rental for your broadband and money is very tight then moving to someone like TalkTalk at £17.95/m for their ADSL2+ (including line rental) is something to consider. This means moving away from BT Basic

Though why your bill is greater than £25 is a difficult one since BT Basic with ADSL2+ and 15GB data allowance should be £9.95 per month. https://btplc.com/Inclusion/ProductsAndServices/BTBa...

On TBB map there's a chap near me who's with TalkTalk, he's even worse off than I am @ 0.6 down and 0.2 up. Every one has to have another to feel for, and in my case it's him. I am also put off by all the adverse publicity with talktalk down the decades. TBH I'm not that thrilled that my ISP is reselling BT, who overdrew at the goodwill bank when the story of aluminium was told many years ago too. I have to say I'm about 50-50 given the recent visit from their engineering team, and it's outcome for me. No hatred but being impressed is proving a challenge right now, as I am sure you can imagine. Hearing the supervisor on speaker phone say that enough had been spent, left a rather poor impression with me.

My ADSL 2+ is unlimited (risible) but the connection issues started once the cap came off, oddly I felt too.

Losing BT basic puts a phone beyond my aspiration. I already lose a bit of weight due to reduced diet, I've already lost half my body weight over the decade. Can't cut further, well not if I am to survive further.

I can have sync, but the connection is then not capable of even TLS, so something is not as it should be. It is a bit frustrating as it happens.

Thanks for pointing out the gotcha, obviously not for me. But I am starting to wonder what is or could be for me. Nothing is obvious but FTTC could work. I keep having the feeling that would be to encourage more of the same though.

Makes living through a mobile seem interesting, but I can't see it being a working solution for me in all honesty. It's probably a bit Heath Robinson for my situation.

Oh well, nightmare or what?

Edited by Curious_Child (Sat 01-Jun-19 14:05:36)

Bit of an update;

Across this afternoon the modem has dropped at something like 90 minute intervals.

I called the ISP to find out if the profile they ordered this morning was in effect or not.

It was due to be in place by about 14:00 today and now, some hours after that, I'm not seeing what was expected.

I'm amazed but they have not been able to tell me as apparently they can't log into details of my line due to some technical difficulty, which was not really explained enough to to convey here.

It's been left that they will call me back once they are able to tell me anything.

You know I am now starting to wonder if it is ISP related. First time I have had to wonder that in more than a decade.

I've no idea what to think about that, it's a shock as they have a pretty good rep for customer service. In truth they have always tried pretty hard, and I've not witnessed any other ISP try that hard to get anything fixed. Not even at a previous address with even worse hardware in the system serving that place. (aluminium lines etc.)

More as I find it out. <shrug>

In reply to a post by Curious_Child:

Makes living through a mobile seem interesting, but I can't see it being a working solution for me in all honesty. It's probably a bit Heath Robinson for my situation.

The actual mechanics of a 4G internet connection have moved beyond the Heath Robinson stage as RobertoS has already indicated. There are lots of reports on the Forum of people only having a 4G connection and getting upload and download speeds equivalent to landline subscribers with FTTC. However, you would then be into the double cost of a landline at the BT rate for your phone and the monthly cost for a 4G internet connection. Alternatively you would need to get a mobile phone to replace your existing handset but that would come with some sort of capital or hire-purchase cost which may be difficult.

Thanks for the thought. It's more than I can raise financially of course.

I've just noticed that previous stuff I was pondering earlier today (FTTC) is also VAT exclusive.

This puts the final cost at £10.00 more a month than it is now. I simply don't have a budget that shape. Even how it is now is a monthly annoyance.

I suspect I've reached the end of the line so to speak.

I wonder where that will lead. <shrug>

It's been two hours since I last spoke with the ISP and they have not been able to call me back as they suggested they would. Neither is it apparent that they were able to fix the profile.

You can certainly get FTTC for less than £25 per month so less than you are paying at the moment - you just need to move supplier (so long as you have checked that the line is FTTC capable

You can check using the "Address Checker" here:
https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

I am curious where abouts in the country you are living?

It's interesting, I used the link you supplied.

vdsl a and b are available and so is adsl <guffaw>

FTTP is not available.

now the gfast is amber, which I guess is to say that it is not available, but something else.

This is in Buckinghamshire. Why were you curious about that?

It's fallen off another three times since I last mentioned it earlier.

Although, to it's credit, it came back all on it's own, which is a high spot for today! Not quite time for the bunting being hung out yet. ;o)

Looking at what you have posted you may have FTTC available (vdsl technology) so you may be able to get a better connection than your current arrangements. Other postings indicate that you might be able to find an FTTC solution within your budgetary restraints.

I will gladly eat a portion of humble pie if you have already been down that route but my defence is that your postings don't indicate that pro-active element.

Also worth pointing out that generally VDSL2 is more reliable than ADSL

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Looking at what you have posted you may have FTTC available (vdsl technology) so you may be able to get a better connection than your current arrangements. Other postings indicate that you might be able to find an FTTC solution within your budgetary restraints.

I will gladly eat a portion of humble pie if you have already been down that route but my defence is that your postings don't indicate that pro-active element.

Yes, FTTC could turn out to be an option. I have let all of that newer tech go over my head as the pricing has never been what I could at various times class as affordable. Now there is larger looking problem I have to learn about it pretty quick I guess. Then find something that will fit the budget. Right now that is why I may have appeared not quite proactive enough for some. This major increase in the size of the problem is only about a week old. It's been there at a lower level for some time though and working with the ISP we always found a way to make it work again.

I need to find a working solution, it's got to end up costing no more than £30.00 per month and that must include vat. There presently is no budget for anything else. It's not likely to get a lot better over time either.

I had a call a little while ago from a lady at the ISP, who let me know that because I do not pay them for the line then they propose to do nothing to help. I'm sort of glad I don't pay them for it, as they might say much the same if I did pay them, but just charge me more for it. I did try to explain how things stood, but that just made her hang up the call. Some parts of the ISP have a very unpleasant sharp edge to them it seems. Hard to understand it is the same length of wire involved both times. No matter who gets paid and how much it's still got issues that show no sign of being possible to fix. BT feel they have spent to their budget, and the ISP is powerless to act.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Also worth pointing out that generally VDSL2 is more reliable than ADSL

<GUFFAW> ;o)

Not the highest bar to clear given my experience at present.

Thanks for a chuckle in among the gloom of it all. Appreciate it.

I assumed that your ISP would be BT, given the BT Basic line rental. Oops! Which ISP is it please, seeing as it seems to be not particularly helpful?

If it's up to date his profile says IDNet

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

If it's up to date his profile says IDNet

After what must be approaching 20 loyal years with them (2 addresses) it feels like kicking a puppy, but yeah, it is up to date, sadly. It feels so very out of character for them too. Maybe they changed and I simply had no reason to notice. <shrug>

During the call, there was no noise on the line, and neither did the modem drop it's connection. That tells me that stuff at my end is clearly working. The funny (peculiar) thing was that she never noticed that, despite having called specifically to say that with noise on the line they would not act, and that was her company response to a technical support enquiry which I made yesterday. <sigh>

Even more mystery today:

At or about 03:30hrs it dropped the adsl, When it came back it was synced about as good as one could wish for on this line.

Right now, at the close of this day, the BQM graph reveals almost no red, which is starkly in contrast to how much there has been for the last week or more.

There is a lot of yellow, and it gets pretty tall, but that is not a thing that normally alarms me too much.

The green has lowered again, much like when the outreach engineer had done his thing, not quite down that low, but considerably better. Like a switch was thrown in fact.

All of which says, it is certainly intermittent and or something fishy is going on. It may even be both. It went the whole day without dropping, not even for a phone call.

I'm at a loss as to what to think, but pretty happy to see it that way.

I wonder if this is the start of something better, or simply highlighting the seemingly random nature of the creature which my ADSL has become.

I expect it to fall off over night or in the morning, because once BT are all back at work, that happens apparently.

Oh well, we shall see.