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Standard User andwan0
(newbie) Wed 31-Jul-19 14:37:33
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QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. speeds


[link to this post]
 
This post isn't about an ISP, but more of broadband speed rights/law.

I live in a house built in the 1970s in the North. We never had a BT engineer touch our phone sockets since the 1980s. However our master socket does look like the single-socket NTE5. We have always had slow internet/broadband.

Speed Test

SNR Graph

BT Speed Table

Currently we are with Origin normal non-fibre broadband. I was told to plug the router directly into the TEST socket (after opening the NTE5 front panel). I've ran the speed tests, 24hr later and now & again from time to time. My download speeds are 4x slower than the minimum speed by BT. I have no other devices, not downloading and ran wired connected.

I've emailed pictures to Origin but they advised to change to Fibre. I said no I prefer to get my non-fibre broadband speeds fixed since it's been like this for 1 year with the ISP. They haven't replied for 2 days.

Knowing Origin is a "virtual ISP" which piggyback/borrow from BT... should I switch to BT? Or should I chase up Origin?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 31-Jul-19 14:47:45
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
Yes, your speed is low and finding out what is causing it could nice and easy or a long drawn out process.

Do you have filters fitted?
Do you have extension wiring?
Are you sure your modem is working properly?
Is the test wired or WiFi?
Have you run any tests on TBB?

And many more.

To be honest, the best advice has already been given to you "move to VDSL/FTTC" - once that is in, with a new modem or hub, you will get a good high speed conection and if not, easy enough to get a techjnician round to solve it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 31-Jul-19 15:00:05
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
When you took the faceplate off the NTE, were there any wires attached to the faceplate? If not, are there any extension sockets in the house, whether or not you use them?

If there are extension sockets, even unused, that are not connected directly to or chained from the faceplate but instead come from a junction box between where the line reaches the house and the NTE, then that could very well be the cause of your low speeds. It is very common in older houses.

If this is the problem, changing ISP would not help and although fibre would be faster it would still be severely crippled. You are right in trying to sort out the problem before doing anything else.

As you are able to give us those graphs, I assume you could also give us the current sync/connection speeds, down and up, and similar for the attenuations and overall noise margin/SNR/SNRM (routers can label it as any one of those three). Those figures are the best guide for us as to what you should be getting.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.


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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 31-Jul-19 15:00:52
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
LOL - you must have posted your reply just as I started writing mine smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 31-Jul-19 15:28:30
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
If you were to switch to a 'fibre' based connection are you aware that pricing starts at just £19.99/m (including phone line) so unless Origin is super cheap no need to remain with them or even goto BT.

The connection speeds, attenuation and overall noise margin figures will help people to decide if this is a throughput problem or line issue (line issues can be affected by extension wiring in the home - hence the test at the test socket request).

Even if problem is line outside the home, shifting to the 'fibre' version will chop a lot of that line out of the equation so should be significantly better.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User andwan0
(newbie) Thu 01-Aug-19 09:40:00
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
<snip>
Do you have filters fitted?
Do you have extension wiring?
Are you sure your modem is working properly?
Is the test wired or WiFi?
Have you run any tests on TBB?

And many more.

To be honest, the best advice has already been given to you "move to VDSL/FTTC" - once that is in, with a new modem or hub, you will get a good high speed conection and if not, easy enough to get a techjnician round to solve it.

Answers to your questions:
- We only have 1 phone socket and that is the master phone socket. Yes it has a filter on it. It's unbranded and think it might be TalkTalk's. But I assume filters are similar/same among the big ISPs.
- We do have extension from the master phone socket, but the past week's testing has been done with the router directly connected to the TEST socket.
- Modem/router is default settings. But I have now received email from support asking me to change 3 settings (which I'll post in later post in this thread).
- It's been wired all a long.
- What's TBB?

- What's VDSL/FTTC?
- Asking the ISP directly to send an enginner is one thing. Possible call out costs/fees is another.
Standard User andwan0
(newbie) Thu 01-Aug-19 09:43:48
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
When you took the faceplate off the NTE, were there any wires attached to the faceplate? If not, are there any extension sockets in the house, whether or not you use them?

Yes, there's wires attached to the faceplate. We do have extension to living room & a bedroom, but we use a splitter on the master socket. Currently testing is directly done on the TEST socket, bypassing the splitter and faceplate.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
If there are extension sockets, even unused, that are not connected directly to or chained from the faceplate but instead come from a junction box between where the line reaches the house and the NTE, then that could very well be the cause of your low speeds. It is very common in older houses.

Not that am aware of. I don't think we have any other extension sockets connected to the junction box.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
If this is the problem, changing ISP would not help and although fibre would be faster it would still be severely crippled. You are right in trying to sort out the problem before doing anything else.

Noted.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
As you are able to give us those graphs, I assume you could also give us the current sync/connection speeds, down and up, and similar for the attenuations and overall noise margin/SNR/SNRM (routers can label it as any one of those three). Those figures are the best guide for us as to what you should be getting.

I got a reply from support asking me to change 3 settings which I'll post details in a further post after checking my current replies.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 01-Aug-19 09:51:19
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
TBB - the website you are on


VDSL/FTTC - Very-high-speed Digital Subscriber Line or Fibre To The Cabinet


The main point of my post is don't waste time and effort, move to an FTTC based service and then if the speeds are low, getting a technicain out to visit will be easy and at no cost.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User andwan0
(newbie) Thu 01-Aug-19 10:01:24
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Here is the reply from support:
Your line's downstream attenuation is 51.1db, roughly calculating to a line length of 3700 meters
https://www.speedguide.net/dsl_speed_calc.php

Your downstream SNR is too high for the profile you are currently on you should be around 6db downstream SNR but you're at 11.7db as I write this. At 6.06pm on the 29th when you sent the image of ADSL2+ you were at 12db. SNR that is too high can cause errored seconds, which I can see at times on the line, these can cause slow sync speeds, slow through put and instability.

Your current incoming speed is at 2.048mbps which is 0.048mbps above the lowest estimate per the DSL checker (the part to the left of the red square image you also sent Monday).

Please revisit the DSL settings within your router, ensure that RX AGC Gain is set to stable then apply this is it is not already. When the current SNR margin restores on this page if it is not closer to 6db please disable Dynamic line adjustment and change the ADSL stability adjustment from -5db to 2db then apply these changes. Again when the current SNR margin restores check that it is closer to 6db.

If this is the case please then go to system logs (second from the bottom on the left) then top right DSL logs and check the data rate for downstream. This will match the incoming sync speed. If the SNR does get closer to 6db as it should be then I suspect the incoming speed will increase and therefore what is seen in the home will increase.


I was surprised since this would totally buffle a layperson.

Changed settings:
DSL Modulation: ADSL2+ (default: some old modulation not named ADSL)
RX AGC Gain: Stable
Dynamic Line Adjustment: Disable
ADSL Stability Adjustment: 2db (default was -5db)

1. Modulation to ADSL2+

2. SNR Graph (for ADSL2+ change)

3. Date Rate (after db change)

4. SNR Graph (after db change)

5. Speeds (after db change)
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 01-Aug-19 10:30:27
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
"SNR that is too high can cause errored seconds, which I can see at times on the line, these can cause slow sync speeds, slow through put and instability. "

What a pile of rubbish.

A high SNR margin is not going to cause errored seconds, in fact a lower margin is more likely to be a problem, i.e. higher sync speed at lower margins so less using more marginal parts of the radio spectrum.

Look at http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/index.php?param=RG...

Which shows what is thought to be the likely speeds based on your modems connection stats, i.e. you are syncing at the low end of what is expected.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 01-Aug-19 10:34:58
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
Thatís a bit better, though itís amazing that support tell you one thing that is simply the opposite of correct. The system increases the SNR in order to decrease the speed, in order to reduce the number of errors. They have cause and effect the wrong way round smile.

That aside, your answer about wires that are attached to the faceplate is important. There is probably at least one that is no longer needed. Rather than tell you what to do at this stage, a photograph of the back of that faceplate, clearly showing where the wires connect, would be best, please smile.

The presence of those wires suggests there are extensions to somewhere in the house, but itís also possible someone has done a DIY installation of that socket. Thatís another reason for needing the photo.

You seem to say you have an extension plugged into the master. If that is a free-standing one from a shop it could be part of the problem. What is on it? The phone, the router, or both plus the filter?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 01-Aug-19 10:56:26
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
"SNR that is too high can cause errored seconds, which I can see at times on the line, these can cause slow sync speeds, slow through put and instability. "

What a pile of rubbish.

A high SNR margin is not going to cause errored seconds, in fact a lower margin is more likely to be a problem,


I was going to say something similar to yourself and RobertoS ... but got pulled away. I will add an extra comment for the OP too

If tech support were seeing errored seconds when running a 12dB SNR then it suggests there is additional interference at times and that a loss of sysnc had casued a reset which, when the noise went away, a 12dB margin was being seen, however, it could return.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 05-Aug-19 13:29:29
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Re: QUERY: slow non-fibre broadband 4x slower than min. spee


[re: andwan0] [link to this post]
 
The SNR graph looks like it could be from an Asus modem?

If it is an Asus I'd be trying another modem before anything else as the xDSL chipset in the Asus DSL range of modems is absolutely garbage.
The DSL settings page on those devices have a ridiculous number of potential settings that can dramatically affect the speed/stability of a line.
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