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Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Aug-19 19:21:03
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Openreach community fibre partnership


[link to this post]
 
We are on a rural exchange in Kent. The exchange has a FTTC presence from Callflow Solutions as part of BDUK (I think) but the problem is we are on an exchange only line so the FTTC solution is no use to us. Callflow estimate is 10Mbps which is significantly less than the 16Mb we get from Talk Talk.

We are a small community of 7 properties on a farm estate. We have an Openreach fibre cable running overhead right past the entrance to the farm estate so the property furthest from the cable is about 250 yards away.

I spoke to all the residents on the estate as they are all constantly complaining about the broadband situation here and they are all keen on progressing a community partnership. I filled in the details on the Openreach website and they have come back with an initial estimate of a little over £33k or £4735 per property for a FTTP solution giving us speeds of up to 330Mb.

That seems like an awful lot to me given how close we are to an Openreach fibre cable. I know every situation is different but how does that cost sound in relation to other partnership products? How would FTTP be delivered? Would that mean digging up to lay cable? That sounds expensive. Most of us would be happy with a FTTC solution and speeds in the 50-60Mb region if it could reduce the cost.

I'm no Openreach engineer but in my mind if they could somehow patch in to the cable running past the estate and install a small cabinet they could use the existing copper for the last couple of hundred yards it could reduce the cost significantly or is that simply not how it works?

The initial estimate letter also mentioned grants that may be avaiable, does anybody know what sort and how much they might be worth?

Steve
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 28-Aug-19 19:49:21
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
No way of knowing what the fibre cable is doing and you don't just break into a fibre cable and patch in, so it is possible the break out point that would be used is a lot further away.

How do the actual telephone lines reach you now? The FTTP fibre will usually use at least of that.

The vouchers would cost likely be https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/rural/

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Aug-19 20:40:11
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
There is a telegraph post on the road right beside the entrance track to the farm estate and the cables are overhead up to that point. From there the cables serving each property are underground, at least that's my understanding of things. The property we're in is a stable block that was converted to residential just over 20 years ago so the cables were most likely laid then, not sure about the other properties on the estate.

I really hope there's a way to get the costs down a bit, the best part of £5k per property would be a tough sell, too rich for me I'm afraid.

EDIT: Just looking at pictures on Google street view, the cables from the telegraph post right by the estate entrance are overhead for a bit further than I remembered, I'll have another look in the daylight tomorrow.

Edited by sjr (Wed 28-Aug-19 23:41:17)


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 28-Aug-19 21:12:41
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Can you private message the postcode, as will attempt to guess how far the aggregation node (from where they would run the fibre is) is.

Have you attempted to approach CallFlow for a quote to deliver their service specifically?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User dect
(committed) Wed 28-Aug-19 22:03:18
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sjr:
The initial estimate letter also mentioned grants that may be avaiable, does anybody know what sort and how much they might be worth?
Take a look at this https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/rural/
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Aug-19 23:15:34
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I did call Callflow Solutions and the sales agent said that because of the distance from the exchange the best we would get with their service is 10Mb. That said, I didn't ask about the possibility of having a cabinet near the estate as I wasn't sure if that was an option they would consider or not. Sales agent didn't try too hard to get our business when I told him the downstream speeds he was quoting as an estimate were a little more than half of what we get with Talk Talk on ADSL2+

I'll PM the postcode separately.

Edited by sjr (Wed 28-Aug-19 23:30:51)

Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Aug-19 23:27:39
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
I take it that on that chart where it says 'Max Voucher Value Resident' means per property rather than each resident in a property?
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Thu 29-Aug-19 01:09:42
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/rural/

Para 2, Line 2: "up to £1,500 per residential premise"
Standard User dect
(committed) Thu 29-Aug-19 08:05:23
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sjr:
I take it that on that chart where it says 'Max Voucher Value Resident' means per property rather than each resident in a property?
As MCM says its per property, if you use the postcode search it will confirm if your postcode is eligible for a rural voucher as not all postcodes are eligible.
Standard User dect
(committed) Thu 29-Aug-19 08:09:13
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sjr:
I'm no Openreach engineer but in my mind if they could somehow patch in to the cable running past the estate and install a small cabinet they could use the existing copper for the last couple of hundred yards it could reduce the cost significantly or is that simply not how it works?
I suspect the cost to providing the smallest FTTC cabinet for just 7 properties would be greater than the £33K you have been quoted for FTTP.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 29-Aug-19 10:17:30
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
No Openreach GEA Fibre presence on your exchange, and my bet is on it coming from Cranbrook if they were to quote. In which case quote is fairly cheap

So how do you know this ia an Openreach fibre? Location suggests might actually be some Callflow fibre strung up on Openreach poles (duct and pole access means this is possible). Or there may be a business with a leased line.

Even if not Cranbrook then the other likely locations are roughly same distance anyway.

Getting more of the other slow properties on the road to increase size of CFP may reduce the price per property i.e. overall cost would go up but split equally individuals might pay less. Enlarging to cover a business or two with their larger vouchers would help too.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(knowledge is power) Thu 29-Aug-19 10:24:55
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dect:
In reply to a post by sjr:
I'm no Openreach engineer but in my mind if they could somehow patch in to the cable running past the estate and install a small cabinet they could use the existing copper for the last couple of hundred yards it could reduce the cost significantly or is that simply not how it works?
I suspect the cost to providing the smallest FTTC cabinet for just 7 properties would be greater than the £33K you have been quoted for FTTP.


+1
Which is why - before Fibre First came along - rural areas had a disproportionately higher % of FTTP deployment especially in BDUK funded rural areas. Iím sure Openreach would be quite happy to provide a FTTC cabinet for the OP but he would be mad to pay a higher cost for an inferior solution.

FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 Mbps
Linksys EA9500v2
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Thu 29-Aug-19 11:05:14
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I'm assuming it is Openreach fibre because a little while ago Openreach gave us advance warning of a road closure so that contractors could cut back some trees to give Openreach engineers access to the telegraph poles on the road to hang some fibre cable.There is a prep school just up the road a little, maybe that's what the fibre is for?
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Thu 29-Aug-19 11:05:49
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Yikes frown
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Thu 29-Aug-19 11:09:26
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
I just thought FTTP would involve digging up to lay cables and that to me suggests expensive. Obviously if FTTC is more expensive it is even less of a starter than the FTTP solution.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 29-Aug-19 11:10:12
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Most likely in which case wrong type of fibre deployment, i.e. this will be a leased line

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 29-Aug-19 11:12:17
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Digging is avoided where possible, i.e. if poles exist then they are used and if duct exists that is used. In your case believe the cost is the distance, i.e. not really the cost per metre of the fibre itself but the time it takes people to string it up on poles or in the existing ducts along with costs of things like road closures or traffic lights to manage traffic so people can work safely.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Alucidnation
(member) Sun 01-Sep-19 17:59:37
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Just make sure you go through the quote with a fine toothed comb.

Openreach were trying to charge me £1000 just to dig a 12m trench on my front lawn and £2800 for two pavement boxes that were not needed, and £800 to dig a trench across the road, when in fact, it was across the pavement so would be half the quoted cost.

Didn't like it when i pulled them up on it.

i suggest people from now on, check exactly what they are paying for.

Draytek 2862.
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Tue 03-Sep-19 16:22:49
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I had a good chat with the Openreach contact for the proposed partnership today. He confirmed that a FTTC solution would probably be more expensive than the proposed FTTP solution so better speeds for less money is good news. He also said that in addition to the rural gigabit vouchers Kent County Council are now providing top up grants of £1000 per residential premise (nothing for businesses). So with £2500 available in grants for each residential premiise and £3500 for premises with a business, we're looking at under £2k per property. I can live with that, hopefully everybody else can too and we can finally have decent broadband here smile

Edited by sjr (Tue 03-Sep-19 16:23:41)

Standard User dect
(committed) Tue 03-Sep-19 17:20:12
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Fingers crossed that everybody feels the same and you can progress.

Normally you need to pay 50% at time of signing contracts and the remaining 50% at completion (check with CFP to see if you need to pay via a CIC), the cash plus some of the grant for each property will be part of the initial 50% and the remaining 50% will be completely funded by the grants.

Make sure the Kent CC top up is not time limited as you don't want any surprises further down the road.
Standard User Alucidnation
(member) Tue 03-Sep-19 18:25:26
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Surely that is £1500 per residential property in vouchers and top ups?

Draytek 2862.
Standard User dect
(committed) Tue 03-Sep-19 18:34:12
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: Alucidnation] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Alucidnation:
Surely that is £1500 per residential property in vouchers and top ups?

For residential property - £1500 for rural gigabit voucher and £1000 for KCC grant which equals £2500 per property

For a business Property - £2500 for gigabit voucher and £1000 from KCC grant which equals £3500 per property

You can mix and match gigabit vouchers with rural gigabit vouchers
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Wed 04-Sep-19 09:57:38
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
I hope so. Of the seven properties on the estate, five are owner-occupied and two are rented. If the final estimate comes in at under £2k per property by the time grants and vouchers are taken in to account I'm confident we'll get buy-in from those who own their properties. The renters I hope will buy in too because when I first talked about the CFP I made it clear there would be costs involved and they still said they were interested.
Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Thu 05-Sep-19 14:27:07
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
We got confirmation today that we do indeed qualify for the rural gigabit scheme plus the Kent County Council top-ups. The KCC scheme is only being launched on Tuesday (10th Sep) so hopefully no issues with timescales.
Standard User dect
(committed) Thu 05-Sep-19 16:13:36
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sjr:
We got confirmation today that we do indeed qualify for the rural gigabit scheme plus the Kent County Council top-ups. The KCC scheme is only being launched on Tuesday (10th Sep) so hopefully no issues with timescales.
The reason I asked about the KCC scheme is because this process could take 18 months before you get FTTP and the gigabit vouchers have a time limit of 12 months for them to be used although they have now added a mechanism for the period to be refreshed after 12 months so wasn't sure if KCC grants have a time limit as well.

Edited by dect (Thu 05-Sep-19 16:14:17)

Standard User sjr
(knowledge is power) Thu 05-Sep-19 21:29:03
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
This is what the chap from KCC said

You donít need to make any additional applications, just use the Government RGC process and we will manage all the financial issues / audit and assurance behind the scenes. We have deliberately included our scheme in the RGC programme to reduce bureaucracy for people Ė so you only make one application and we hide all the wiring of our programme to avoid people getting confused by the issues.

Sounds straightforward enough!
Standard User dect
(committed) Thu 05-Sep-19 22:36:34
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sjr:
This is what the chap from KCC said

You donít need to make any additional applications, just use the Government RGC process and we will manage all the financial issues / audit and assurance behind the scenes. We have deliberately included our scheme in the RGC programme to reduce bureaucracy for people Ė so you only make one application and we hide all the wiring of our programme to avoid people getting confused by the issues.

Sounds straightforward enough!
It does indeed.
Standard User Alucidnation
(member) Sat 07-Sep-19 07:52:56
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: sjr] [link to this post]
 
Ah ok.

Don't forget that you still have to pay for the VAT element, regardless.

I think!

Draytek 2862.
Standard User dect
(committed) Sat 07-Sep-19 08:31:21
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: Alucidnation] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Alucidnation:
Don't forget that you still have to pay for the VAT element
There are many differences between the rural gigabit voucher and the standard gigabit voucher.

For example you can use the rural gigabit voucher to pay VAT which is not the case for a standard gigabit voucher.

Edited by dect (Sat 07-Sep-19 08:33:02)

Standard User Alucidnation
(member) Sun 08-Sep-19 12:14:46
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Re: Openreach community fibre partnership


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Christ, why do they make it so complicated?

Draytek 2862.
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