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Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 15:14:16
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Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[link to this post]
 
I thought you guys here would have a great insight and discussion on this as I've just had a conversation with Plusnet and we were talking about how 99% of the problems are due to line issues, breakages in the lines, noise interference, BT Openreach issue's etc. it's always the case unless it's Virgin Media who have their own way of delivering broadband to people's homes.

It's always felt dated to me how we still use phone lines to deliver our internet, I know for this to change it would be a huge job and a lot of money but to me it does feel like we're behind (reminds me of someone using Analogue for TV instead of Digital which we eventually switched to in 2012) however when speaking to the guy at Plusnet he mentioned this and said about how South Korea have an amazing internet which isn't the first time I've heard the UK are really dated in regards to the delivery of internet.

I've also heard that in the US their average internet speed is what we would pay additional or higher packages for and I'm not 100% sure how they have their internet delivered but I'm sure it's a much better, stronger and more reliable way than going through phone lines which does seem very old in regards to technology now for me.


So what do you guys think? Is the UK behind in regards to this and how do you feel internet and the way it's delivered could be improved, specially now we're in 2020.

I'd be interested to hear, as I say 99% of the problems with outages, cutting off, issue's etc. with any provider other than Virgin is due to phone line issue's.

Hope all is well for everyone smile

-------------------------------------

Edit: Just to add I was reading about BT Openreach doing something so that Sky could offer their new Ultra Fast connection they've just gone live with but it's only available to like 1% of the country or something due to BT delaying the work.

I'm not sure if you can link articles here so I'll just quote the text if anyone wants to have a read as I thought this was interesting.

Openreach Put the Brakes on Future UK G.fast Broadband Plans


Openreach (BT) has today informed ISPs that they are holding off giving any further guidance on future build plans for their hybrid fibre G.fast “ultrafast broadband” (100Mbps+) technology, which means that under the existing rollout they will only cover 2.73 million UK premises by March 2020.

The writing has been on the wall for awhile, not least since the last G.fast (ITU G.9700/9701) related rollout update was in November 2018 (here) and there have been no further updates (i.e. no new locations announced in 2019). The most recent coverage update confirmed that they had so far put the service within reach of 2,166,000 premises and the rollout pace was slowing (here).

Under the original plan Openreach had intended to push the 330Mbps capable G.fast service to reach 10 million UK premises by the end of 2020 (March 2021 financial), although pressure from competitors, Ofcom and the Government’s move to prioritise “full fibre” networks has combined to encourage a greater focus toward much more desirable Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) lines.

In August 2018 this resulted in Openreach’s decision to revise down their G.fast rollout plan to just 5.7 million premises by March 2021 (here), while today’s decision means that no new locations are currently planned to be added to the build programme. As such they will continue to rollout until March 2020, when just 2.73m premises will have been covered.

Just to be clear, the G.fast rollout hasn’t yet stopped but any build plans beyond March 2020 are currently under review. A final decision on that review is expected to be communicated to ISPs by March 2020 but we’d be very surprised if that included a major expansion beyond the planned 2.73m premises (probably not to the previously expected 5.7m level).

As before the reason for all this stems from Openreach’s desire to focus on FTTP deployments and avoid overbuild, which is a positive. Lest we forget that last year’s move to scale-back the G.fast rollout was ultimately followed by the operator’s decision to raise their full fibre rollout to cover 4 million premises by March 2021 (up from 3m), including an ambition for 15 million by around 2025 (up from 10m) – here.

Admittedly we suspect that the mixed performance and limited take-up of the G.fast service itself, which only tends to be very good over shorter copper lines, probably hasn’t done much to help its future prospects. By comparison FTTP can easily handle multi-Gigabit or better speeds in the future and doesn’t suffer from the same reliability issues, plus take-up has been good.

The BT Group are currently in the process of restructuring and a lot of that focus has to do with raising money in order to fund their full fibre plans. Today’s predictable news very much plays into that effort.


There is an image also on the page which I can't share here but what do you guys think? (I don't know much about it so it's all a learning curve for me).

---------------------------------------------

Another interesting article too which you guys might find interesting smile

What is the UK’s broadband future?
On downtime alone, the cost is substantial – estimated at £11bn per year. We are moving into a new era where speed – in upload, download and latency (the delay that happens in data communication) – as well as reliability will determine Britain’s place in the future digital economy. But what is the UK’s broadband future?

But without a substantial shift – from short-term incremental improvement to long-term future-proof progress – the UK runs the risk of falling further behind while its burgeoning tech sector decamps elsewhere.

Britain’s telecommunications network and resulting broadband and connectivity woes did not appear overnight. They are the result of nearly two centuries of evolution and the compound distortion of decisions made long ago.

Starting in the 19th century under Benjamin Disraeli, one by one, all the mediums of communication were nationalised: the telegraph companies (1869), the radio spectrum (1904) and, in 1912, the Telephone Company.

Fast-forward to today and the greatest issue at stake for Britain is the 2015 Ofcom strategic review of digital communications, which will set the framework for the next 10 years.

So how does it all work, what are the connectivity chokepoints and how do we compare internationally?

(there's more in the article but I'll switch to here).

Rival technologies
There are many competing and complementary broadband and connectivity technologies available or soon to be ready.

Fibre to the premises (FTTP).
This is for now the highest-performing internet connection. By bringing a fibre cable into the home or office, symmetrical upload and download speeds become available at 1Gbit/s, with low latency rates. However, by comparison with other European countries, the penetration of FTTP in the UK is very low – 0.003%.

Satellite broadband.
Many Britons have been receiving data from satellites since the late 1980s. Satellite broadband runs on the same principle but with higher bandwidth and can serve remote, poorly connected locations at much lower cost, more quickly. All of today’s broadband satellites operate in geostationary orbit at a height of 22,000 miles, which creates longer latency – 250 microseconds or more. However, download speeds are improving. ViaSat3 from 2020 will offer 1Gbit/s and largely uncapped data. It is well established in the US, with 700,000 subscribers but only a few thousand in the UK.

Fibre to the cabinet (FTTC).
This brings fibre-optic cable between the cabinet (often a roadside box) and the exchange for a high-bit-rate digital subscriber line (VDSL). This is the superfast option being deployed across the UK by Openreach and can deliver speeds at up to 76Mbits/s depending on the distance to the cabinet.
Asymmetric digital subscriber lines and ADSL2+. In the UK, these are the standard broadband services and offer speeds from 0.5 to 24Mbits/s.

Aerial fibre.
To avoid the costs of digging trenches in pavements and to the premises, in some cases it may be possible to deliver FTTP wound around existing telegraph poles and lines.

Line-of-sight or fixed-wireless access.
Line-of-sight broadband connections essentially place a transmitting tower on top of a hill and relay either satellite or mobile wireless connections to anywhere that is within range and has line of sight of the connection.

Mobile wireless.
In the UK, Relish has led the way with this offering, using 3G and 4G signals only for data to deliver 50-60 and up to 700Mbits/s to a router in city centres or rural not-spots that are poorly served by broadband.

Mobile broadband – 3G, 4G, 5G.
The average download speed for mobile today is 6.1Mbits/s rising to 15.1 Mbits/s for 4G ; 5G promises to have a speed of at least 1Gbit/s and may be available from 2020.

A superfast future?
In December 2010, the government published Britain’s Superfast Broadband Future, with the aim of the UK having the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. So did the government achieve that?

Based on data compiled by Analysys Mason, it appears that the UK achieved its aim of having the best network by 2015. But the wider picture is more complex and it does not mean that the UK could not have done better.

First of all, a national average of download speed would be a much more important measure, if the UK had an equal geographic distribution of population and economic activity.

However, it doesn’t. Very high bandwidth in remote corners of Britain will never have the same dynamic impact as in a concentrated bustling city centre. So it is concerning that London – Europe’s biggest city by economic output – has such a poor ranking compared to other European capitals, ranking 26th, just above Minsk.

What can we learn from abroad?
All countries are different and work with varying legacy telecoms structures, regulatory environments, players and standards of living. However, there are two successful examples that the UK should pay close attention to when considering future broadband growth and investment.

Lithuania
Lithuania has the third-fastest connections in Europe. This is no small achievement considering it has a GDP per head around a third of the UK’s and a fifth of the population density.

How can it do this? In 2004, Lithuania’s equivalent of Ofcom, RRT, mandated the compulsory sharing of all passive infrastructure “…suitable for construction of electronic communications networks”. To further incentivise network investment, RTT went for low-cost access to ducts and poles.

In Lithuania, the typical price per metre per month of duct access is £0.028 whereas in the UK it is £0.078. The bottom line is that competition and very low access costs gave Lithuania additional network investment and much faster broadband than would have happened if the incumbent’s privileges had been left in place.

New Zealand
Across the UK, many telecoms companies – apart from Virgin Media – have been calling for Ofcom to refer BT to the Competition and Markets Authority in order to split off BT Openreach as a separate company.

This has worked well in New Zealand. In 2011, overseen by the regulator and approved by shareholders, Telecom NZ was separated into two companies – Chorus and Telecom New Zealand, which became Spark New Zealand. Chorus, the Kiwi equivalent of Openreach, is responsible for the network infrastructure and Spark provides internet, mobile and fixed-line telephone services. Crucially, Chorus was spun-off, not sold off.

This meant that existing shareholders were able to see an increase in value and retain enough cash flow for future investments. New Zealand is racing ahead not just in delivering more fibre-network investment and subscriptions, but in a flourishing range of consumer choice in video on demand, ISPs and fixed-line services with a goal for FTTP to reach 75% coverage by 2020.

The road ahead
The UK finds itself at a crossroads. The demand for data, largely driven by video and hand-held devices, is growing fast, but the fixed-access network investment has been woefully behind the curve, especially in comparison to many other nations.

The lack of network infrastructure competition has been a huge hindrance. BT has done well to extend the life of the copper network, but Britain cannot be ready for the future with a mere 0.003% penetration level of FTTP. Incremental improvements with pre-existing assets based on short-term targets are no longer appropriate in a non-linear digital world.

Britain needs to have ambition, vision and longer-term infrastructure planning. This requires looking beyond the next five years and estimating what demand and technologies will look like. With multi-gigabit speeds, many new capabilities become possible.

Virtual reality is coming to market too, with headsets from Oculus Rift, Samsung, Google and HTC. A virtual world will be low cost, and more varied, spontaneous and flexible than the real world.

Above all, the marginal cost of adding new stock-keeping units – a measure of products in a given economy – will be close to zero and quickly exceed those in the real world. Virtual telepresence will lead to the death of distance.

Equally, the digitisation and automation of transport will be dramatic and requires low latency and frequent updates. Fully self-driving cars, expected on our roads from the middle of the next decade, will require high bandwidth in both directions.

Network Rail believes digitising the signalling system can increase capacity by 40%. And Nats (the national air traffic system), plans to make huge improvements by reducing the gaps between planes in airspace from nine to ten miles to just one mile. And flying drones – inevitably for deliveries, and maybe for people too – will rely on high-capacity, resilient two-way networks.

Britain already has many street cameras, but as the cost of data storage falls, much more will be recorded on video, which is demanding for networks.
Looking ahead, fibre to the premises has to be a big part of the solution for two reasons. First, in pure bandwidth limits, it is future-proof. At around 100,000 times that of copper, once it is in place, maintenance costs are low, it lasts for decades and hardware upgrades to much faster speeds for optical splitters, optical network units, and terminals are simple and off the shelf.

Until 2030, policy must look at more immediate concerns. Priority has been given to connectivity to the home to serve the retail market. But business needs much higher importance given to faster networks and competition for services to the workplace.


If you guys want to read that of course smile

Plusnet Broadband

Edited by robbieglover2k7 (Mon 13-Jan-20 17:59:43)

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:24:40
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
The Korea thing ?

Yep, you can get smoking fast internet in the city centres ... but on the whole, out in the sticks it’s a different story.. not entirely convinced things are so much better in the states either.

As for 99% of issues being to do with the lines ... that just simply isn’t so. I’d say the commonest cause was poor internal set up/customer error.

Why are you excusing Virgin, they have their issues too ?

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:28:33
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
It depends on who you compare with and what you compare.

The UK were an early adopter of telephony systems and as such have a huge investment in technology that wouldn't be used in a "green field" today.

South Korea started at a different point and were able to pretty much jump straight to modern technologies (ie fibre). Also, the vast majority of them I believe are in sky rise blocks and therefore the way it is deployed is very different.

US is a mixed economy. Some states/areas have great broadband and others don't. The US has pockets where they have cheap fibre and other areas that are using old cable tech that is expensive.

Some countries have spent a lot of public funds to deliver broadband, some have simpler regulation regimes that make implementing easier. Some have lower taxes on new technology. Some have high personal tax which helps to fund initiatives.

The UK have largely concentrated on availability over pure speed. This means that a large percentage of the country have basic access but a much smaller percentage have fibre or similar technology.

In some league tables we would be near the top, others we are near the bottom. So, depending on your viewpoint we are ahead or behind or somewhere in the middle. With enough investment we could head towards the top but that would almost certainly require government intervention and either higher tax rates or a redirection of taxes from other areas (and there are plenty that people could suggest that they consider to be lower priority).


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Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:38:00
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
It depends on who you compare with and what you compare.

The UK were an early adopter of telephony systems and as such have a huge investment in technology that wouldn't be used in a "green field" today.

South Korea started at a different point and were able to pretty much jump straight to modern technologies (ie fibre). Also, the vast majority of them I believe are in sky rise blocks and therefore the way it is deployed is very different.

US is a mixed economy. Some states/areas have great broadband and others don't. The US has pockets where they have cheap fibre and other areas that are using old cable tech that is expensive.

Some countries have spent a lot of public funds to deliver broadband, some have simpler regulation regimes that make implementing easier. Some have lower taxes on new technology. Some have high personal tax which helps to fund initiatives.

The UK have largely concentrated on availability over pure speed. This means that a large percentage of the country have basic access but a much smaller percentage have fibre or similar technology.

In some league tables we would be near the top, others we are near the bottom. So, depending on your viewpoint we are ahead or behind or somewhere in the middle. With enough investment we could head towards the top but that would almost certainly require government intervention and either higher tax rates or a redirection of taxes from other areas (and there are plenty that people could suggest that they consider to be lower priority).



Yeah, the guy on the phone mentioned that about the UK being the early adopter and the South Korea thing too (he mentioned to me when talking about this check out South Korea, they've got it amazing over there).

Yeah the US is such a big place so it no doubt differs, on interesting thing I found was this here.

The UK's always been a bit behind when it comes to telephony, in the US, they had electronic tone-dialling phones in the 60s, while we still had rotary dials & mechanical exchanges until the 80s when the GPO broke off the phone system into BT and things started changing, but they took too long to change, and we're still lagging behind...

I know people over in Canada who have FTTP (Fibre to the Premises) connections that are at Gigabit speeds, which compared to the UK is light years ahead, but due to monopoly control over the landline infrastructure, we're held by the short & curlies of Openreach & their shareholders wanting profit, not investment...


I honestly do feel we are lagging behind big time but like you say, it's the investment thing and this is probably why.

Thanks for the kind response smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:45:08
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
There are a fair few people on this forum that have fibre (me included). Also, Virgin tech is not a laggard for speeds (gigabit is often not required and materially 100Mbps + is enough for most - actually 40Mbps is enough for most).

Also, you will find people that have gigabit from B4RN, Cityfibre, Gigaclear, etc. The connections are out there and you will find people that have them - but what is key is the percentage.

The other slowing factor is that even once fibre is available a lot of people won't upgrade as they are fine with what they have. Some haven't upgraded from ADSL to FTTC, many don't buy the packages above 80Mbps even when they are available - this is the case in many countries.

Companies invest where they can make a profit but if people don't upgrade to faster packages then there isn't any additional profit to be made by switching tech (except maybe because it is lower cost to maintain but that could take years to pay back).
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:49:00
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Something else worth adding. If you are old enough you would possibly remember Tomorrows World on the TV. Back in the 80's they did a show where they were talking about BT doing trials of fibre to the premise. They were looking to provide fast network connections allowing for TV to be distributed over the fibre. It all looked great and could have kick started a revolution... However, the government refused to give BT a license to distribute TV signals and so the project was shelved as they wouldn't be able to make money out of it (the Internet wasn't really a thing and people certainly didn't need the network speeds for anything other than TV distribution back then).

EDIT : Not 100% how I thought it happened but here is an article about how BT were stopped from rolling out fibre

Edited by ian72 (Mon 13-Jan-20 16:55:15)

Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 16:55:48
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
The Korea thing ?

Yep, you can get smoking fast internet in the city centres ... but on the whole, out in the sticks it’s a different story.. not entirely convinced things are so much better in the states either.

As for 99% of issues being to do with the lines ... that just simply isn’t so. I’d say the commonest cause was poor internal set up/customer error.

Why are you excusing Virgin, they have their issues too ?


Excusing Virgin, where you get that idea from? They deliver their internet differently hence why they don't have the outstanding amount of issue's with line's causing a problem with internet.

And of course taking the consumer errors aside, you can say that about ANY service!! [facepalm]

I'm talking about issue's and faults within the service when they occur and yes, nine times out of ten it's to do with line issue's as mentioned above (a lot of ISP's have told me this on the phone).

And in regards to Virgin Media they are awful. I was with them before my current provider and would never go back to them, I won't go into it but it was a nightmare. I've been with Plusnet ever since and although they've had their problems on a whole they are very good and provide a good service that care about their customers which is important I feel.

Anyway, back on topic smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:00:55
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Something else worth adding. If you are old enough you would possibly remember Tomorrows World on the TV. Back in the 80's they did a show where they were talking about BT doing trials of fibre to the premise. They were looking to provide fast network connections allowing for TV to be distributed over the fibre. It all looked great and could have kick started a revolution... However, the government refused to give BT a license to distribute TV signals and so the project was shelved as they wouldn't be able to make money out of it (the Internet wasn't really a thing and people certainly didn't need the network speeds for anything other than TV distribution back then).

EDIT : Not 100% how I thought it happened but here is an article about how BT were stopped from rolling out fibre


Thanks Ian, I appreciate that smile

No, I don't remember Tomorrows World haha but yeah, I do just feel though that the way broadband is delivered through wires and phone lines etc.. just to me it feels old and dated and not a very solid way of delivering internet.

As I say when I've spoke to ISP's about this (Sky, BT, Plusnet, AOL a while back and even Virgin have mentioned this to me) they have said that more times than not it's line issue's because they're just not very solid from either breakages, noise is a regular one etc...

I get it and understand it's a huge job and more about it'll cost a lot to do also (specially across the whole of the UK) but it just does feel to me that it really should have progressed now.

Just my personal feelings on it of course, it honestly does remind me of how it took us ages to switch off the analogue to the digital world for TV, we were way behind on that when other countries had pretty much advanced from it years ago.

I've seen a few conversations in regards to this too and many have agree'd how outdated we are but of course it would cost a lot though eventually I'm sure they will have to invest?

Just a general conversation anyway as I was interested to see people's take here on this smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:16:25
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Copper was never designed for broadband - it is a testament to human ingenuity and science just how far copper has been pushed in this respect. All the time incremental upgrades could be made to keep pace with user requirements it made business sense to do so. However, whilst more could be squeezed it is no longer considered viable to continue to squeeze.

It is also inevitable that a lot of the issues with connections is likely to be the "last mile". The number of instances of failure at this part of the network will pretty much always outweigh those individual instances in the rest of the network - and therefore will always be the highest number of calls. However, if your copper (or fibre) breaks it breaks for you. If however a central core network link fails it is one instance of failure but could affect thousands of people's connections.

ISPs will always look to highlight the failures in areas they don't control. But, they all have failures of various parts of the service that on a single instance will affect large numbers of customers.

The Virgin network is a different design and is mostly copper to the premises. It is a different way of delivery but still is "old fashioned" copper for most users. They are continuing to drive copper harder (although starting to move to fibre for the last mile as well). Virgin though tend to see much more contention and slow downs at peak time as they have far more points of contention in their network that the users actively feel - for BT based services a lot of contention can be resolved by replacing one link at an exchange for for Virgin the contention often can be closer to homes.

So, yes, copper is old and feeling the pinch - but if you put in brand new copper links they wouldn't see significant support issues for years - but why would you do that rather than put in fibre now.
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:23:19
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Copper was never designed for broadband - it is a testament to human ingenuity and science just how far copper has been pushed in this respect. All the time incremental upgrades could be made to keep pace with user requirements it made business sense to do so. However, whilst more could be squeezed it is no longer considered viable to continue to squeeze.

It is also inevitable that a lot of the issues with connections is likely to be the "last mile". The number of instances of failure at this part of the network will pretty much always outweigh those individual instances in the rest of the network - and therefore will always be the highest number of calls. However, if your copper (or fibre) breaks it breaks for you. If however a central core network link fails it is one instance of failure but could affect thousands of people's connections.

ISPs will always look to highlight the failures in areas they don't control. But, they all have failures of various parts of the service that on a single instance will affect large numbers of customers.

The Virgin network is a different design and is mostly copper to the premises. It is a different way of delivery but still is "old fashioned" copper for most users. They are continuing to drive copper harder (although starting to move to fibre for the last mile as well). Virgin though tend to see much more contention and slow downs at peak time as they have far more points of contention in their network that the users actively feel - for BT based services a lot of contention can be resolved by replacing one link at an exchange for for Virgin the contention often can be closer to homes.

So, yes, copper is old and feeling the pinch - but if you put in brand new copper links they wouldn't see significant support issues for years - but why would you do that rather than put in fibre now.


Yeah, I've shared an article in the OP which I edited that you might find interesting Ian smile

I understand what you mean, I guess as technology evolves though at some point it's going to have to to deliver the speeds solid as we need, I mean imagine if we still had dial up speeds today, nothing would run hardly haha

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Virgin Media used to be Bell Cable and then later NTL or something like that, I'm sure when Cable TV first started becoming a big thing they were doing roadworks all over the country installing all the underground work to deliver this which is what Virgin uses so I hear you with that being old too but it does seem a lot better than the phone line's people use, I mean hardly anyone has landline phones anymore and the only reason we have landlines is for internet lol

I do wonder if and when they will advance and how, they surely have to be close to it now as technology evolves (we're going into 4K for TV now and I've even heard about 8K briefly) so it's going to have to to keep up with technology but it is interesting.

If you have some time read the little article I edited into my OP here titled "Openreach Put the Brakes on Future UK G.fast Broadband Plans" and see what you think.

And thanks for the kind replies Ian, I really appreciate that smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:26:10
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
I don't remember all the Cable franchises but there were quite a few that had various buyouts and mergers and in the end Virgin took over all of them (and many of them were in poor financial state from what I remember). Again, the Virgin network is in a lot of areas much newer than the BT copper because the BT copper rollout was started decades earlier (over time much will have been replaced but so I suspect would be true of the cable network as sections get replaced due to age).
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:31:18
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
I don't remember all the Cable franchises but there were quite a few that had various buyouts and mergers and in the end Virgin took over all of them (and many of them were in poor financial state from what I remember). Again, the Virgin network is in a lot of areas much newer than the BT copper because the BT copper rollout was started decades earlier (over time much will have been replaced but so I suspect would be true of the cable network as sections get replaced due to age).


Yeah, thanks again Ian, you have a great insight smile

It is interesting to see how we evolved with all this for sure smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User dect
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:31:45
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
I don't remember all the Cable franchises but there were quite a few that had various buyouts and mergers and in the end Virgin took over all of them (and many of them were in poor financial state from what I remember).
The one I always remember from back in the day was Bell Cablemedia
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:34:26
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dect:
In reply to a post by ian72:
I don't remember all the Cable franchises but there were quite a few that had various buyouts and mergers and in the end Virgin took over all of them (and many of them were in poor financial state from what I remember).
The one I always remember from back in the day was Bell Cablemedia


Bell Cablemedia, that's the one I've heard of smile

Yeah I think it was them who when the whole cable thing was coming around all the road works all over were as they were coming in, which I think then changed to NTL and later Virgin Media (maybe a few more in between I'm not sure).

When I said Bell in my other reply I wasn't sure if that was right so thank you for that dect smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Jan-20 17:54:28
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
There were several "cable" suppliers in the UK, not just the ones mentioned already in the thread. They were generally geographically split.

Around here the installation of the cabinets and underground feed to a hole in the pavement outside each property was by Nynex. They were later bought by NTL.

AIUI the VM Cable broadband nationwide is actually NTL, licensing the Virgin trademark.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:01:11
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
There were several "cable" suppliers in the UK, not just the ones mentioned already in the thread. They were generally geographically split.

Around here the installation of the cabinets and underground feed to a hole in the pavement outside each property was by Nynex. They were later bought by NTL.

AIUI the VM Cable broadband nationwide is actually NTL, licensing the Virgin trademark.


Yeah, I think there was a few more well known in certain area's than others weren't they?

I haven't heard of Nynex before but NTL seem to be quite well known smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:11:05
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Similar to what I said, VM is NTL:Telewest, belonging in fact to Liberty Global plc.
Virgin Media Limited is a British company which provides telephone, television and internet services in the United Kingdom. Its headquarters are at Green Park in Reading, Berkshire. Since 2013, Virgin Media has been a subsidiary of Liberty Global plc, an international television and telecommunications company. The company was previously listed on the NASDAQ Stock Market and London Stock Exchange. Virgin Media is not a sister company of Virgin Mobile USA, which is owned by Sprint Corporation.

The company was founded in March 2006 by the merger of NTL and Telewest, which created NTL:Telewest. In July 2006, the company purchased Virgin Mobile UK, creating the first "quadruple-play" media company in the United Kingdom, offering television, internet, mobile phone and fixed-line telephone services. In November 2006, the company signed a deal with Sir Richard Branson to licence the Virgin brand for the combined business. All of the company's consumer services were rebranded under the Virgin Media name in February 2007.
The "Virgin" bit is just brand name licensing and nothing to do with Branson's Virgin other than that.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:23:58
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
G.fast is a chocolate tea pot of a product ... end of. Brought in to massage the goals set by bean counters.

FTTP all the way I say.

It would have been here MUCH earlier if Thatchers government hadn’t put the kibosh on it.

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:32:09
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
So according to you Virgin were ‘awful’ and yet as has been said, have a ‘newer network’ .... so that kinda stuffs your ‘Openreach network feels old’ hypotheses.

I still think
I'm talking about issue's and faults within the service when they occur and yes, nine times out of ten it's to do with line issue's as mentioned above (a lot of ISP's have told me this on the phone).
is debatable.

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:40:46
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
I honestly do feel we are lagging behind big time but like you say, it's the investment thing and this is probably why.
What service are you trying to access that is not available because of your connection?

The reason I ask is because the UK has been in the top ten of countries for per-capita internet use almost continuously for the last twenty years. Even now the countries above us are mostly small, densely populated countries (Denmark and Norway are the only ones really comparable to us and even then you're talking a couple of %ge points difference).

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IT.NET.USER.ZS?...

According to that 95% of the UK population use the internet. Only 87% of the USA does wink

But returning to my original question: What service are you unable to access because of the speed of your connection?

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Mon 13-Jan-20 18:43:28)

Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:42:16
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
So according to you Virgin were ‘awful’ and yet as has been said, have a ‘newer network’ .... so that kinda stuffs your ‘Openreach network feels old’ hypotheses.

I still think
I'm talking about issue's and faults within the service when they occur and yes, nine times out of ten it's to do with line issue's as mentioned above (a lot of ISP's have told me this on the phone).
is debatable.


No it does not, look I'm not here for an argument so stop trying to criticise me on this.

Virgin were bad because they were ripping me off bill wise, nothing to do with speeds and delivery of their internet.

I appreciate if you can contribute kindly to the discussion.

Plusnet Broadband

Edited by robbieglover2k7 (Mon 13-Jan-20 18:43:12)

Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:44:58
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Add Videotron which was taken over cable and wireless.
Videotron had an early interactive tv service called Videoway. Sadly it never came to much.
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:51:48
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
I honestly do feel we are lagging behind big time but like you say, it's the investment thing and this is probably why.
What service are you trying to access that is not available because of your connection?

The reason I ask is because the UK has been in the top ten of countries for per-capita internet use almost continuously for the last twenty years. Even now the countries above us are mostly small, densely populated countries (Denmark and Norway are the only ones really comparable to us and even then you're talking a couple of %ge points difference).

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IT.NET.USER.ZS?...

According to that 95% of the UK population use the internet. Only 87% of the USA does wink

But returning to my original question: What service are you unable to access because of the speed of your connection?


What do you mean what service am I unable to access because of the speed? smile

I'm talking about the way the internet is delivered to us as technology evolves and like things mentioned in the article's in my OP smile

It feels to me that the way of phone lines etc.. is an old, outdated way of being delivered, like we haven't advanced or evolved as opposed to everything else (we're playing catch up). The only reason landlines exist (in homes) is because of internet otherwise most people wouldn't have them and the majority of issue's tend to be from landlines when it comes to speeds and drop out's.

It reminds me of analogue TV as opposed to digital and how we were behind on that as opposed to most, it's 2020 now, we really are behind when it comes to still being on landline systems which is often problematic when it comes to disconnections, noise on the line etc. for a while.

I mean the technology we have now wouldn't have worked if we had stuck to dial up internet however we advanced then to what we have with broadband now and technology is advancing more to the point where I'm not sure landlines will be able to cater to them as we evolve.

Basically technology is evolving faster than our internet seems to be, there's a lot of articles and discussions about this but I don't want to link them as I'm not sure if you're able to link things here like that smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:52:22
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
Add Videotron which was taken over cable and wireless.
Videotron had an early interactive tv service called Videoway. Sadly it never came to much.


Oh wow, I'd not heard of that before smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Jan-20 18:55:53
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Also, from my previous link:-
As of 31 December 2012, it had a total of approximately 4.8 million cable customers, of whom around 3.79 million were supplied with its television services (Virgin TV), around 4.2 million with broadband internet services and around 4.1 million with fixed-line telephony services.
As of mid-November we have these figures.

Add in the many smaller ISPs using the Openreach network via BT Wholesale, TalkTalk Business Wholesale and Daisy Communications, comparing VM's fault rate per annum with Openreach's rate per annum I think will show Openreach as somewhat the better of the two.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 13-Jan-20 18:56:30)

Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 19:24:11
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Also, from my previous link:-
As of 31 December 2012, it had a total of approximately 4.8 million cable customers, of whom around 3.79 million were supplied with its television services (Virgin TV), around 4.2 million with broadband internet services and around 4.1 million with fixed-line telephony services.
As of mid-November we have these figures.

Add in the many smaller ISPs using the Openreach network via BT Wholesale, TalkTalk Business Wholesale and Daisy Communications, comparing VM's fault rate per annum with Openreach's rate per annum I think will show Openreach as somewhat the better of the two.


Hi yeah, I'm not really comparing them, Virgin's isn't exactly the newest either just newer than what we have now.

It's more about us evolving in general in the way our internet is delivered to us, it's not going to be long where landline delivery is going to have to be upgraded to a much better technology or replaced.

Although it may be alright for people at the moment it's only a matter of time where it's just not capable of delivering the stability, reliability and speeds we need as we advance and it's already very temperamental as it is now.

Honestly, I do feel we are very behind when it comes to broadband/internet technology.

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 19:53:25
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
There are many companies busy installing FTTP across the UK now. Its going to take probably more than another decade to get anywhere near complete FTTP coverage, but the majority should have it available in the next 5 years or there abouts.
I dont feel we are that far behind our contemporaries. We may have started rapid deployment a little later than some, but i think we will finish in a similar position unless the government mess it up
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 20:10:07
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
I’m not after an argument either.

Your statement appears to be based on what various ISP’s have told you. I believe this isn’t the best source for reliable info.

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 20:14:22
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
What was that non-starter of a TV service that knocked around at the same time as the original USB managed installs ? It was certainly available in West London.

Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 20:29:32
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Homechoice
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Jan-20 20:40:07
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
That was it ..........

Standard User gary333
(member) Mon 13-Jan-20 21:55:27
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Not related but thought might be interesting whilst we are on the topic of older TV/network technology is that of British Relay Services / Rediffusion. I'd never heard of this service until an ancient video popped up on You Tube a couple of weeks ago. However, it looks like in certain areas they installed "cable" / twisted pairs and that this was seperate to the GPO/BT telephone service and was a way of receiving TV channels without the "unsightlyness" of TV aerials

Anyone shed any light of what may have happened to this network (the infrastructure), was it used for anything else after the company removed the service? There is pretty much no information on the internet that comes up with searches and even Wikipedia is scant.

Edited by gary333 (Mon 13-Jan-20 21:58:20)

Standard User Brunel
(experienced) Mon 13-Jan-20 23:34:30
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
http://www.hackhull.com/projects/rediffusion/index.html

https://youtu.be/ltI09lTuGjk

Edited by Brunel (Tue 14-Jan-20 11:27:50)

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 14-Jan-20 06:10:55
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
I believe evidence of the Rediffusion service can still be seen on some of the terraces in Reading.

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 14-Jan-20 16:52:01
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In S Wales ( & elsewhere) it was taken over by NTL and converted to CATV and is now part of the Virgin media empire..
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 14-Jan-20 16:57:41
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Zarjaz

It would still have been earlier if OFCOM under the labour govn in 2004 hadn't banned BT yet again from doing it.

I remember the ITT well and the FTTP technology looked great to roll out but we were told we had to provide copper alongside so that LLU operators would not be disadvantaged and BT was banned from using the 2nd optical frequency for CATV as this would disadvantage CATV operators. ( This is what was rolled out in the states when some Operators ripped out the copper as well).
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Tue 14-Jan-20 17:01:41
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
The fact that so many want their broadband as cheap as possible will hold back the upgrade to FTTP.

Advances cost money and someone has to pay for it.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 14-Jan-20 17:15:46
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
robbieglover2k7

If you look on the maps on this site you can actually see whatFTTP has been rolled out.

You can also click on the Constituency Full Fibre/FTTP Coverage Levels to see stats for each area.

The news articles also show how the picture is changing and how fast. The OR one is at https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8639-january-202... but there are others for the other large FTTP operators.

Regardless of the technology 95% of the population are happy with sub 80Mb speeds and only pay for the slowest package that gives them a delay invisible service.

MTBF ( Mean time between failures) on the copper distribution carrying broadband is actually very low somewhere around 8 years. but as always those with failures are the ones you hear about not the 95% that have no problems

A significant number of the complaints you hear ( Outside those caused by distance) are actually ISP or customer premises issues where ISP staff blame OR as that shifts the blame.

Some of the slow speed complaints are by people that don't want to upgrade to a faster service due to an increase in cost or just don't know that they can get a faster speed. See "the slowest streets in Britain" where most streets can get speed 10x+ faster if they were prepared to change product.

.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 14-Jan-20 18:13:04
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Indeed, competition seen as a driving force for progress. It, in this case hampered in the extreme.

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 14-Jan-20 19:31:27
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
Basically technology is evolving faster than our internet seems to be, there's a lot of articles and discussions about this but I don't want to link them as I'm not sure if you're able to link things here like that smile
All else being equal - what does it matter? Okay for us as members of this site the technology behind the internet and residential internet in particular is fascinating but for 95% of the UK's population it's of no interest at all. They don't care if their connection is via FTTP, FTTC, or an old man leading a donkey. All they care about is that it allows them to do the things they want to do. And the evidence we have of the last 20 years (maybe more) is that the UK's telecommunications network has been providing most of the population with what they want better than most of the UK's peers.

It also, from a pragmatic engineering standpoint, seems to have been a sensible and logical growth. For example if we'd decided to go straight from analog to FTTP a lot of the population would still have been on analogue ten years ago. With that plan the remaining 5% might still be on analogue today. BT (and others) have done a reasonably good job of upgrading the national network to keep up with demand.

But the technology used..meh. That's just bragging rights. It's of interest to us geeks but most people in the UK don't care and don't need to care.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Tue 14-Jan-20 19:33:04)

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 14-Jan-20 19:40:21
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
If you have some time read the little article I edited into my OP here titled "Openreach Put the Brakes on Future UK G.fast Broadband Plans" and see what you think.
Despite what my second reply might suggest I don't think the sun shines out of BT's corporate posterior. Their G.Fast rollout never made sense in my eyes from a technical point of view. It makes sense from an accountant's (low cost, relatively high availability) and marketing ('look Maw - we done got 300Mb/s too!').

G.Fast sounded like a good solution to no-spots (DSLAM on a lampost in the centre of a village kind of thing) but it turned out that the costs of running fibre to such a node meant it didn't make sense. At that point they should have dropped the whole thing but I suspect they didn't want to look like they'd wasted money on the research and/or had contracts with suppliers already signed.

At the moment hardly anyone wants those kinds of speeds anyway (which is why VM have recently upgraded people for free). By the time people do want those kinds of speeds the G.Fast pods will be obsolete and replaced by FTTP. G.Fast was a poor decision and I think we have to be grateful that they finally saw the light and stopped wasting money on what I at least would describe as a white elephant.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 14-Jan-20 19:42:14
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
G.fast is a chocolate tea pot of a product ... end of.
Hey now - at least you can eat a chocolate teapot.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 14-Jan-20 19:48:16
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
As long as you realised it was chocolate before you made tea in it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What a mess that could make!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde
Standard User CarlTSpeak
(regular) Tue 14-Jan-20 20:06:28
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Indeed, competition seen as a driving force for progress. It, in this case hampered in the extreme.


Had it been actual competition BT would've been left alone. This wasn't competition / free market, it was government interference in it.

Building better networks, not just faster ones.
Standard User clyde123
(member) Wed 15-Jan-20 10:31:20
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
I little bit of personal experience here.
I was backwards and forwards to France a lot in the 1980s. When we first started getting dial up broadband, ok was snail slow by today's standards, but we got a service that we could use for real internet things - WWW, email, etc.
In France from what I remember they had to use a terminal which seemed to have limited services. (I'm happy to be corrected on all this - I've got a great memory but it's short!).
Over a number of years I remember often saying how our internet (UK) was superior / faster than in France.

However in recent years my experience is that the tables have turned. All my contacts there seem to have really good fast speeds. On the other hand here in Glasgow I'm stuck with about 14 Mbps.
This is a relatively recent house but all the lines in the estate are EO. So no fibre services available. Totally ignoring Virgin for this argument as they are a "separate technology". There are no plans for any FTTP.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 15-Jan-20 12:05:14
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
France had Minitel which was available nationally, but provided similar service to our Teletext. However it was two-way, you could send emails. It was ahead of its time!

Broadband in france per head of population is easier as the majority live in large towns and cities. I may have the percentage wrong, but isn't it around 80% of the population lives within the Paris area?

VirginMedia 200/20 (22 Nov 19). Was FTTC for 7 years (55/12 to 46/5)
20 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM

Edited by jchamier (Wed 15-Jan-20 12:06:11)

Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 12:49:30
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
Basically technology is evolving faster than our internet seems to be, there's a lot of articles and discussions about this but I don't want to link them as I'm not sure if you're able to link things here like that smile
All else being equal - what does it matter? Okay for us as members of this site the technology behind the internet and residential internet in particular is fascinating but for 95% of the UK's population it's of no interest at all. They don't care if their connection is via FTTP, FTTC, or an old man leading a donkey. All they care about is that it allows them to do the things they want to do. And the evidence we have of the last 20 years (maybe more) is that the UK's telecommunications network has been providing most of the population with what they want better than most of the UK's peers.

It also, from a pragmatic engineering standpoint, seems to have been a sensible and logical growth. For example if we'd decided to go straight from analog to FTTP a lot of the population would still have been on analogue ten years ago. With that plan the remaining 5% might still be on analogue today. BT (and others) have done a reasonably good job of upgrading the national network to keep up with demand.

But the technology used..meh. That's just bragging rights. It's of interest to us geeks but most people in the UK don't care and don't need to care.


I hear what you're saying with that and I don't disagree however I do feel that in regards to broadband itself, most people probably would want a better more solid service (however that's done technology wise).

If you said to most people about our internet being delivered through phone lines as opposed to a much stronger and solid way of delivering it to our homes than through wires (or whatever) I would imagine they would say we should be advanced from that.

As I say the only reason most have phone lines now is for the internet, of course business's still use phone's in their offices but I don't know anyone for years who has used a landline phone in their homes, I can't even remember last seeing one which is what I mean by how they're only still around due to this reason (is this a benefit to BT, I'm not sure).

It's interesting though because although I'm not overly clued up technology wise (which I admit) but I do wonder as technology advances and we do need more solid and faster broadband delivered to our homes how long can the current landline system deliver this

I mean we're now mainly on HD for most things such as Netflix, Amazon Prime, Box Office etc. which is fine at the moment to a degree however we're going into 4K now and it won't be long until that's a thing everywhere then onto an 8K quality.

My point is regardless of what 4K, 8K, whatever they want to call it we're on like how we had to advance from dial up to cater to the things that came into play it's going to be the same thing for this.

I read this comment earlier too which I thought was quite interesting.

"internet is rubbish in the UK any way you look at it with 60-70 being "superfast", average in the US being about 90"


It does seem like on a whole we are lacking as opposed to where we probably should be, we shouldn't really have the amount of problems we have now (although of course technology is going to have but you get what I mean).

It's all really interesting and I appreciate your insights here too smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 12:51:02
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
If you have some time read the little article I edited into my OP here titled "Openreach Put the Brakes on Future UK G.fast Broadband Plans" and see what you think.
Despite what my second reply might suggest I don't think the sun shines out of BT's corporate posterior. Their G.Fast rollout never made sense in my eyes from a technical point of view. It makes sense from an accountant's (low cost, relatively high availability) and marketing ('look Maw - we done got 300Mb/s too!').

G.Fast sounded like a good solution to no-spots (DSLAM on a lampost in the centre of a village kind of thing) but it turned out that the costs of running fibre to such a node meant it didn't make sense. At that point they should have dropped the whole thing but I suspect they didn't want to look like they'd wasted money on the research and/or had contracts with suppliers already signed.

At the moment hardly anyone wants those kinds of speeds anyway (which is why VM have recently upgraded people for free). By the time people do want those kinds of speeds the G.Fast pods will be obsolete and replaced by FTTP. G.Fast was a poor decision and I think we have to be grateful that they finally saw the light and stopped wasting money on what I at least would describe as a white elephant.


Yeah, maybe G. Fast isn't the thing but I do feel that if something doesn't come into play soon we'll be struggling more as the technology advances (playing catch up basically).

Really good insight, you make some great points smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 12:55:52
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
robbieglover2k7

If you look on the maps on this site you can actually see whatFTTP has been rolled out.

You can also click on the Constituency Full Fibre/FTTP Coverage Levels to see stats for each area.

The news articles also show how the picture is changing and how fast. The OR one is at https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8639-january-202... but there are others for the other large FTTP operators.

Regardless of the technology 95% of the population are happy with sub 80Mb speeds and only pay for the slowest package that gives them a delay invisible service.

MTBF ( Mean time between failures) on the copper distribution carrying broadband is actually very low somewhere around 8 years. but as always those with failures are the ones you hear about not the 95% that have no problems

A significant number of the complaints you hear ( Outside those caused by distance) are actually ISP or customer premises issues where ISP staff blame OR as that shifts the blame.

Some of the slow speed complaints are by people that don't want to upgrade to a faster service due to an increase in cost or just don't know that they can get a faster speed. See "the slowest streets in Britain" where most streets can get speed 10x+ faster if they were prepared to change product.

.


Yeah the only think I think about in regards to that though is some people don't upgrade because their lines aren't capable so it's a waste of time and money to upgrade to faster packages because the lines can't support them.

I live in a popular area and I have that problem also, in fact Plusnet said this to me recently.

If you were on Fibre Extra, your package would allow speeds up to that 71mb/s. However, if you're not hitting the 40mb/s mark on your current package I'd be wary of upgrading needlessly.


And this is because the line can't deliver it (everything has been tested and set up fine by professionals here too) which means say if something comes out that requires that kind of speed and connection to run (which it will eventually) then I'm stuck because the system doesn't support to cater for it.

So there's that side of it also, I mean should there even be areas where certain streets can't get certain speeds now, debatable I guess but it does make me wonder considering we're in 2020 now smile

Plusnet Broadband

Edited by robbieglover2k7 (Wed 15-Jan-20 13:15:04)

Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Wed 15-Jan-20 12:58:30
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
. . . . but I don't know anyone for years who has used a landline phone in their homes, I can't even remember last seeing one which is what I mean by how they're only still around due to this reason (is this a benefit to BT, I'm not sure).


Perhaps if you expanded to horizons to areas where there is no mobile signal or considered a different age demographic to your own you might find a different answer.
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 13:01:55
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
There are many companies busy installing FTTP across the UK now. Its going to take probably more than another decade to get anywhere near complete FTTP coverage, but the majority should have it available in the next 5 years or there abouts.
I dont feel we are that far behind our contemporaries. We may have started rapid deployment a little later than some, but i think we will finish in a similar position unless the government mess it up


I didn't know that in regards to the FTTP thing you mentioned, that's interesting yet great news at the same time.

I've always felt like we've been stuck on this thing with not much progression and this is what I mean about us eventually playing catch up, which I think we're close to doing now if we're not already.

The 5 year thing is good, as long as we get there then it's all good. They make a lot more work for themselves by being late because if it comes to the point where they've got no choice to do it due to playing catch up it's going to be a lot of work and a lot of upset from customers at that point for the frustrations of this.

I'm sure we are upgrading and progressing but it would be nice to see us move forward from this old way of land lines and whatever to something more modern, solid and reliable.

Sure, I realise this is a big job and cost, of course but it's something that I do feel is important as pretty much everything is run by the internet now.

Before we know it we'll need a broadband connection to turn our microwaves on haha smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 15-Jan-20 13:03:34
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
Also, many people on these forums use VOIP. That implies a piece of kit that may even be a standard landline phone being connected in one way or another to the router.

VOIP supplies "landline" type phone services(+).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
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Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 13:09:33
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
. . . . but I don't know anyone for years who has used a landline phone in their homes, I can't even remember last seeing one which is what I mean by how they're only still around due to this reason (is this a benefit to BT, I'm not sure).


Perhaps if you expanded to horizons to areas where there is no mobile signal or considered a different age demographic to your own you might find a different answer.



Possibly, I won't debate that but if that is the case then shouldn't we be more advanced than that so people aren't in that position?

I have travelled all over the UK and know people up and down the country and no doubt most of these more times than not are cities and popular area's but even in the smaller area's I've still not come across anyone who has a phone in their house by their landline. I guess that's down to the mobile networks.

EE's 4G network reaches over 99% of the UK, as do O2 and I know Three said they offer geographic coverage to more than 91% of the UK so it's very rare.

Though if that if this is the case they also shouldn't really have to struggle with things.The population on a whole for the need of a landline in their house is very small (without the need for it being for broadband).

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User CarlTSpeak
(member) Wed 15-Jan-20 14:16:34
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


Depends on the metric you're using. In the round no. Mid-table obscurity and climbing.

In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
I've also heard that in the US their average internet speed is what we would pay additional or higher packages for and I'm not 100% sure how they have their internet delivered but I'm sure it's a much better, stronger and more reliable way than going through phone lines which does seem very old in regards to technology now for me.


Most of their broadband is cable. Most of the USA has a choice of one or two ISPs. Not network operators, ISPs. Verizon and AT&T got to build FTTP and keep it to themselves. They also got to immediately remove the copper from a property when they provided FTTP.

Canada - the incumbents there don't have to sell their top end FTTP products they can keep them to themselves.

Spain - Telefonica got to keep all their FTTP to themselves apart from ADSL 2+ speed services.

Population density changes, wholesaling requirements, streetworks regulations, etc, etc, etc.

The UK is doing alright all things considered and is, with some government assistance and Ofcom getting out of the way, accelerating progress. We also have very few nations we can compare ourselves to legitimately.

Building better networks, not just faster ones.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Wed 15-Jan-20 14:21:58)

Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 14:53:08
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Over 2 million households could have an FTTP connec now, and over 50% of the uk can have Ultrafast via one single cable operator, so i think we we are doing ok against out contemporaries
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 15-Jan-20 15:51:04
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
Over 2 million households could have an FTTP connec now, ….
smile
Is that native FTTP, which is the killer figure, or are you including FTTPoD which is not really relevant?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
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Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Wed 15-Jan-20 16:02:03
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
You need to get out and speak to more people.

We and all my mates and relatives have and use their landline regularly. That's at least 25 people.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 16:29:16
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: CarlTSpeak] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


Depends on the metric you're using. In the round no. Mid-table obscurity and climbing.

In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
I've also heard that in the US their average internet speed is what we would pay additional or higher packages for and I'm not 100% sure how they have their internet delivered but I'm sure it's a much better, stronger and more reliable way than going through phone lines which does seem very old in regards to technology now for me.


Most of their broadband is cable. Most of the USA has a choice of one or two ISPs. Not network operators, ISPs. Verizon and AT&T got to build FTTP and keep it to themselves. They also got to immediately remove the copper from a property when they provided FTTP.

Canada - the incumbents there don't have to sell their top end FTTP products they can keep them to themselves.

Spain - Telefonica got to keep all their FTTP to themselves apart from ADSL 2+ speed services.

Population density changes, wholesaling requirements, streetworks regulations, etc, etc, etc.

The UK is doing alright all things considered and is, with some government assistance and Ofcom getting out of the way, accelerating progress. We also have very few nations we can compare ourselves to legitimately.


That's an interesting insight smile

If given the choice I would rather have a couple of decent ISP's who provide a good solid service than a choice of loads if you get what I mean, of course that's not the fault of ISP's here because a lot of them do provide a good service (Plusnet being one on a whole) but they can only provide what they do with the infrastructure they have but it is interesting.

That's some really great insight, I didn't know all that but it does sound like we are having some progression too which is great. Thank you for being so kind to add that smile

Plusnet Broadband
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 15-Jan-20 16:36:04
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Native FTTP is more like 3.47 million once you allow for all providers.

2 million would be just Openreach (and availability of FoD does not count in those figures - no matter how much some like to think it does)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Wed 15-Jan-20 16:38:05
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
You need to get out and speak to more people.

We and all my mates and relatives have and use their landline regularly. That's at least 25 people.


Dude, I travel all over, I speak to a lot of people and I have friends and family all over the city I live in too. None of them have phone lines for an actual phone in the house, they're all on mobiles and have a line for internet only.

Maybe older people might still have landlines and not so much mobiles which is fair enough but on a whole it's really not popular and since 2012 it's had a rapid decline with half as much people using them. I haven't seen a landline in a home in years.

I guarantee give it another 5 or 10 years or so it'll be well gone in regards to plugging in bulky phone's in the house, I remember reading a few reports a couple of years ago how most people don't even know their landline number anymore.

Plusnet Broadband

Edited by robbieglover2k7 (Wed 15-Jan-20 16:39:58)

Standard User epyon
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 15-Jan-20 17:52:50
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
depends on the age group

but younger people do not use landlines generally.

Vodafone FTTP - 500/500

ST - https://www.speedtest.net/result/8762732964
MT - https://www.speedtest.net/result/8762738246

VOXI - 4G

BSc (Hons) Cyber Security
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 15-Jan-20 18:13:39
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
If given the choice I would rather have a couple of decent ISP's who provide a good solid service than a choice of loads if you get what I mean, of course that's not the fault of ISP's here because a lot of them do provide a good service (Plusnet being one on a whole) but they can only provide what they do with the infrastructure they have but it is interesting.

You wouldn't think that if you lived in one of the cable towns in the US that you can only use the one ISP, and in some cases poeple get much lower performance than in other towns. Its a mess.

Plus if you have a dislike to that ISP you have to move town, or state, to get a different ISP.

VirginMedia 200/20 (22 Nov 19). Was FTTC for 7 years (55/12 to 46/5)
20 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User bowdon
(committed) Wed 15-Jan-20 18:23:19
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
An interesting and long thread that I'll read more indepth later.

I just wanted to add that the US isn't that good when it comes to broadband connections. I think a lot of them are still on adsl2+ type of connections. There are very small pockets changing to full fibre, this tends to be done on a company area basis.

Also remember there are many parts of the US where you can't get a signal for your phone for miles.

As for our we behind, in the over all picture and taking in to account BT's previous attempts to start laying fibre, I think a hold up on progress happened in the last 10 to 15 years because there were many people saying "what do you need that speed for". I truly believe this stiffled progress and is one BT/OR are playing catch-up trying to install fibre lines as fast as possible due to a change in management.

BT Infinity 2 - ECI Cabinet
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 15-Jan-20 18:47:15
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
The US is predominently cable. DSL doesn’t work as distance to exchange is more than UK. My US friends in two different states can get 100 to 300 Mbps over cable or 512k or 128k on DSL. full fibre is rare.

The US built their exchanges much later than the UK so the lines cover a larger area. This is bad for DSL.

some towns have U-verse from AT&T which is FTTC, mostly selling TV rather than internet

VirginMedia 200/20 (22 Nov 19). Was FTTC for 7 years (55/12 to 46/5)
20 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Thu 16-Jan-20 00:19:34
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
If given the choice I would rather have a couple of decent ISP's who provide a good solid service than a choice of loads if you get what I mean, of course that's not the fault of ISP's here because a lot of them do provide a good service (Plusnet being one on a whole) but they can only provide what they do with the infrastructure they have but it is interesting.

You wouldn't think that if you lived in one of the cable towns in the US that you can only use the one ISP, and in some cases poeple get much lower performance than in other towns. Its a mess.

Plus if you have a dislike to that ISP you have to move town, or state, to get a different ISP.


That's why I said a couple of decent ISPs that provide a good solid service as opposed to loads of ISPs that provide a not so solid service which is how it feels across the UK right now, not because of the fault of the ISPs but the infrastructure they use is just not that solid.

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 00:53:28
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Plus if you have a dislike to that ISP you have to move town, or state, to get a different ISP.
That's why I said a couple of decent ISPs that provide a good solid service as opposed to loads of ISPs that provide a not so solid service which is how it feels across the UK right now, not because of the fault of the ISPs but the infrastructure they use is just not that solid.
But what is the magic mechanism to create those two solid-service providers in either a free competitive market or a state-owned duopoly?

As far as I know it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Plus providing the solid underlying infrastructure will cost billions, and no guarantee against a digger ripping up a few backbone fibre cables.

A wish list for what we'd like is fine, but turning it into reality is a very different matter.

In my opinion we are now heading in the right direction, but if you compare the size and complexity of the target infrastructure with the time to built a new estate of a couple of thousand houses it becomes clear it is going to take years.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Thu 16-Jan-20 12:14:28
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by robbieglover2k7:
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Plus if you have a dislike to that ISP you have to move town, or state, to get a different ISP.
That's why I said a couple of decent ISPs that provide a good solid service as opposed to loads of ISPs that provide a not so solid service which is how it feels across the UK right now, not because of the fault of the ISPs but the infrastructure they use is just not that solid.
But what is the magic mechanism to create those two solid-service providers in either a free competitive market or a state-owned duopoly?

As far as I know it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Plus providing the solid underlying infrastructure will cost billions, and no guarantee against a digger ripping up a few backbone fibre cables.

A wish list for what we'd like is fine, but turning it into reality is a very different matter.

In my opinion we are now heading in the right direction, but if you compare the size and complexity of the target infrastructure with the time to built a new estate of a couple of thousand houses it becomes clear it is going to take years.


Oh yeah, how it's done doesn't matter, it's more about progression and improvement as we progress with technology in general, this is what this is all about.

How it's done, how it's delivered exactly doesn't matter as long as it's improved, solid and more reliable with less problems, which as it is now we do tend to have more problems with broadband issue's than anything else we have which as I say is usually down to line issue's more times than not (considering that people have their equipment set up properly of course as that's nothing to do with the issue's broadband supply brings).

It's obvious it's a long haul job and a big one too with money needing to be spent (which investing is a good thing), it's like I mentioned in one of the other posts here about when they were bringing in the whole cable TV (I think Bell Cablemedia time) and all over the country slowly but surely roads were being dug up and this new thing all being installed, they did it then for that they can do it again for broadband which is becoming more and more of a necessity in people's houses now more than it was back then which I think was pretty much for cable TV, so yes they can invest and yes it will take years or we could just say it's a big job and will take years costing money and never do anything then later be way behind and struggling big time as technology improves and we're all frustrated and complaining that they never progressed with this previously.

BUT as you mentioned there we are heading in the right direction with the upgrades and progression which if that's the case my last paragraph is irrelevant though I'm sure you get what I mean smile

It's important otherwise we are going to be left behind and struggle because technology is advancing more than broadband is progressing if you get what I mean, it seems a slow burner smile

It is interesting to see how it all goes though and how it progresses for sure smile

Plusnet Broadband

Edited by robbieglover2k7 (Thu 16-Jan-20 12:16:04)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 12:27:44
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Don't forget that big-money business is already way ahead of the technology that is being rolled out at consumer level. It always was.

For instance, there was a recent (current) enquiry about latency across the pond. For multi-million/billion pound/dollar share transactions milliseconds matter, as it's like gaming writ large. First one in at a good price gets the deal and literally makes millions.

So they have microwave links between the London and New York stock exchange.

Similarly, AIUI radio/TV and mobile phone stuff in the UK is often routed between masts using them.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 16-Jan-20 12:44:54
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
How does microwave (needs line of sight) work from LON to NYC? Don't see any massively tall towers that overcome the curve of the earth, or smaller ones mid atlantic as releys

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User gary333
(member) Thu 16-Jan-20 13:59:47
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
People serious about stock trading co-locate in the stock exchange itself. High Frequency Trading (HFT) is done in the data centre of the actual stock exchange where stock firms place their machines.

In order to stop latency becoming an unfair barrier (as whoever has a machine closest to the stock exchange machines has an advantage) the amount of fibre between the stock exchange and the stock trading firms who are co-located remains the same. The fibre is coiled up. This mean any stock trading firm no matter where they are in the building do not have an advantage over anyone else in the exchange (at least from a data connection point of view). Firms could still have more powerful machines than their competitors.

Edited by gary333 (Thu 16-Jan-20 14:01:07)

Standard User fredfox
(experienced) Thu 16-Jan-20 14:45:32
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You didn't really mean microwave links did you? laugh

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Fibre is here ! FTTP smile
Standard User dect
(experienced) Thu 16-Jan-20 15:05:24
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
People serious about stock trading co-locate in the stock exchange itself.
The IT Security departments of these companies must have nightmares over this arrangement.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 15:14:31
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
How does microwave (needs line of sight) work from LON to NYC? Don't see any massively tall towers that overcome the curve of the earth, or smaller ones mid atlantic as releys
blush
This is true. However my basic point is valid, that the technology we are beginning to get is old hat where lots of money is at stake.

I was conflating two reports I read last year, so was adding 2 plus 2 and getting 3.1, to paraphrase the 2+2 = 5, seeing as we are talking about a reduction.

This was one:-
Exchange Wireless Service is a very low latency radio link operating between London Stock Exchange Group’s data centre located in the City of London and Equinix Slough facility.
….
The other was in the FT but the nearest a quick couple of searches I've done brings up is this Financial Times one, which does have quite a lot about erecting legitimate and "spy" masts in various places. It also mentions discussions about erecting masts on the cliffs in Kent and perhaps Belgium to speed up cross-channel financial links. Unfortunately it is now fully pay-walled and no longer gives the first paragraph or so.

In my searches I also came across this interesting one that I haven't seen before, which talks about related research. Interestingly it says:-
The financial markets of London and New York are currently separated by a mere 33 milliseconds via the current lowest latency transatlantic link.
That's rather a lot better than the 57ms minimum suggested on Monday in this "Which ISP?" thread.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
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Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Jan-20 15:24:32
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Quantum networking could well be the next leap. With quantum entangled endpoints data can be transmitted over vast distances instantaneously. This gets around the latency and distance issue - you don't even need any physical medium between the endpoints. Might be a few years before we get there though...
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 15:26:23
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
People serious about stock trading co-locate in the stock exchange itself. High Frequency Trading (HFT) is done in the data centre of the actual stock exchange where stock firms place their machines.
I was talking about links between exchanges, internationally.
In order to stop latency becoming an unfair barrier (as whoever has a machine closest to the stock exchange machines has an advantage) the amount of fibre between the stock exchange and the stock trading firms who are co-located remains the same. The fibre is coiled up. This mean any stock trading firm no matter where they are in the building do not have an advantage over anyone else in the exchange (at least from a data connection point of view). Firms could still have more powerful machines than their competitors.
That looks almost word for word like an article I was reading earlier, except the article didn't mention co-location. smile

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Standard User towdgeezer
(newbie) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:04:06
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
Not related but thought might be interesting whilst we are on the topic of older TV/network technology is that of British Relay Services / Rediffusion. I'd never heard of this service until an ancient video popped up on You Tube a couple of weeks ago. However, it looks like in certain areas they installed "cable" / twisted pairs and that this was seperate to the GPO/BT telephone service and was a way of receiving TV channels without the "unsightlyness" of TV aerials

Anyone shed any light of what may have happened to this network (the infrastructure), was it used for anything else after the company removed the service? There is pretty much no information on the internet that comes up with searches and even Wikipedia is scant.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:28:34
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It may involve microwave links for London to West Ireland or other optimal fibre landing point.

i.e. minimise fibre distances

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User billford
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:29:01
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
With quantum entangled endpoints data can be transmitted over vast distances instantaneously.
Unfortunately, it can't.

Something would certainly seem to "travel" instantaneously between the endpoints, but you can't use it to send your own data at superluminal speeds.

I can't find a site that gives a reasonably comprehensible explanation of why not (perhaps not too surprising for a quantum effect crazy), but a bit of googling should soon show what the informed opinion is. Seems we're stuck with laggardly photon speeds frown

Bill
Standard User towdgeezer
(learned) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:35:47
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
Regarding the earlier posts about early cable TV such as Redifusion i thought that my memories of a similar large installation that took place in Sheffield in the nineteen sixties might be of interest.
It was called British Relay Wireless and was distributed all around large parts of Sheffield by a heavy gauge copper twisted pair arrangement with something like 5 pairs shielded with a thick copper foil and a hard PVC outer cover. The receiving station was located high up at Bole Hills Crookes with a aerial aimed at Emley Moor and the the signals were translated down to about 3.5 Mhz with high powered valve amplifiers.
It's popularity was down to poor reception in many parts of Sheffield due to the terrain. Eventually a BBC relay was built afterwards at Crosspool near to the BRW station. The wiring ran up and down terraced housing eaves, on both sides of the street and crossed roads mainly at high level. Where wayleave couldn't be obtained it ran over to the other side of the street and then back again. Individual houses were connected to the spine with a heavy junction box about 5 inches square. The cable ran down into each house where it was terminated at an outlet socket. Reception was often problematic with ghosty pictures due to crosstalk. Several TV and Radio Channels were available and later on a "Pay To View" facility for extra cost was provided with an extra box with a coin slot to pay for programmes. This didn't last long and was eventually discontinued. A local electronics store (Bardwells) was selling off the boxes but they didn't contain much that could be used by an electronics hobbyist ! I remember it was still in use during the early seventies. We had a BRW set up to about 1973. Even today you can still see cut off bits of the cable tucked away under eaves in odd places and rusting metal brackets high up on gable ends at road crossings.
Standard User gary333
(member) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:39:42
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by gary333:
People serious about stock trading co-locate in the stock exchange itself. High Frequency Trading (HFT) is done in the data centre of the actual stock exchange where stock firms place their machines.
I was talking about links between exchanges, internationally.
In order to stop latency becoming an unfair barrier (as whoever has a machine closest to the stock exchange machines has an advantage) the amount of fibre between the stock exchange and the stock trading firms who are co-located remains the same. The fibre is coiled up. This mean any stock trading firm no matter where they are in the building do not have an advantage over anyone else in the exchange (at least from a data connection point of view). Firms could still have more powerful machines than their competitors.
That looks almost word for word like an article I was reading earlier, except the article didn't mention co-location. smile


I'd dump that website if they have the same poor spelling, grammar and ability to put a sentence together as i do lol.

London Stock Exchange has some interesting information on it's pages. Here is the Exchange Hosting Service (known as co-location)

https://www.lseg.com/hosting

Tom Scott has an excellent video on You Tube showing the lengths stock markets and providers go to make the service "fair" from a latency point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8BcCLLX4N4

Edited by gary333 (Thu 16-Jan-20 16:55:45)

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:47:58
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
The articles I scanned quickly said there were issues in doing large amounts of data but it is used in some ways for quantum key cryptography - however, maybe over the next 100 years scientists will find ways to get around the current problems.
Standard User billford
(elder) Thu 16-Jan-20 17:15:42
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
The articles I scanned quickly said there were issues in doing large amounts of data but it is used in some ways for quantum key cryptography - however, maybe over the next 100 years scientists will find ways to get around the current problems.
We may be at cross-purposes... quantum computing certainly works and will doubtless become more practicable and powerful in time (and it does involve entanglement), but computing isn't the same thing as long distance data communications.

As with so many things, time will tell...

Bill
Standard User robbieglover2k7
(experienced) Thu 16-Jan-20 17:19:49
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: towdgeezer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by towdgeezer:
Regarding the earlier posts about early cable TV such as Redifusion i thought that my memories of a similar large installation that took place in Sheffield in the nineteen sixties might be of interest.
It was called British Relay Wireless and was distributed all around large parts of Sheffield by a heavy gauge copper twisted pair arrangement with something like 5 pairs shielded with a thick copper foil and a hard PVC outer cover. The receiving station was located high up at Bole Hills Crookes with a aerial aimed at Emley Moor and the the signals were translated down to about 3.5 Mhz with high powered valve amplifiers.
It's popularity was down to poor reception in many parts of Sheffield due to the terrain. Eventually a BBC relay was built afterwards at Crosspool near to the BRW station. The wiring ran up and down terraced housing eaves, on both sides of the street and crossed roads mainly at high level. Where wayleave couldn't be obtained it ran over to the other side of the street and then back again. Individual houses were connected to the spine with a heavy junction box about 5 inches square. The cable ran down into each house where it was terminated at an outlet socket. Reception was often problematic with ghosty pictures due to crosstalk. Several TV and Radio Channels were available and later on a "Pay To View" facility for extra cost was provided with an extra box with a coin slot to pay for programmes. This didn't last long and was eventually discontinued. A local electronics store (Bardwells) was selling off the boxes but they didn't contain much that could be used by an electronics hobbyist ! I remember it was still in use during the early seventies. We had a BRW set up to about 1973. Even today you can still see cut off bits of the cable tucked away under eaves in odd places and rusting metal brackets high up on gable ends at road crossings.


That's interesting, I wasn't even no where near born then but it is interesting to see how far back some of these things actually go, even if they were in small parts etc.. smile

Plusnet Broadband
Standard User zzing123
(learned) Fri 17-Jan-20 01:03:29
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
Videotron were awesome.

This was at the time of 28.8k modems, so it's a long while ago, but Videotron (being Canadian) did the American thing of having free local calls, to which Direct Connection (Dircon, an ISP back in the day) cottoned onto this an got a bank of Videotron lines, so in 1994-5, we had unlimited internet, albeit on a [censored] modem. BT didn't do this until way into the 2000's.

Videotron unfortunately quit while they were ahead, and sold out to Cowboy & Witless, named such because of their atrocious handling of this asset they bought and worse customer service than even BT India in its early days.

We were left in tears, because Videotron were actually planning to rollout the very first DOCSIS system in 1995, which would've been awesome.
Standard User zzing123
(learned) Fri 17-Jan-20 01:26:40
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Currently min latency across the Atlantic is 58.95ms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernia_Express

However, Starlink could beat it to 48ms (go to 6min 5sec in the vid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY

Hibernia Express also cost £30bn to install - those HFT guys are paying a heck of a lot to get that 58.95ms...

However RobertoS wasn't completely wrong about having microwave links. Just need a vast mesh of satellites and several ground stations too to do it laugh

Edited by zzing123 (Fri 17-Jan-20 01:28:34)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 17-Jan-20 01:46:01
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: zzing123] [link to this post]
 
See my reply to MrSaffron. 33ms.

Going via satellite is unlikely to help, unless some revolutionary development comes along. (Sorry about the unintentional pun).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people." Oscar Wilde
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 17-Jan-20 09:00:03
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
This was one of the articles I scanned. Whilst there are issues to stop it now it is possible those issues could be overcome or worked around.
Standard User fredfox
(experienced) Fri 17-Jan-20 12:29:50
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, very interesting article.

Pipex
Nildram
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Be *
Xilo / Uno
Now -> Zen and BT

Fibre is here ! FTTP smile
Standard User CarlTSpeak
(member) Fri 17-Jan-20 13:23:59
Print Post

Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: zzing123] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zzing123:
Hibernia Express also cost £30bn to install - those HFT guys are paying a heck of a lot to get that 58.95ms...


Think you've increased the cost of the cable by a factor of 100.

Building better networks, not just faster ones.
Standard User epyon
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 17-Jan-20 15:07:32
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: zzing123] [link to this post]
 
it was £400m

Vodafone FTTP - 500/500

ST - https://www.speedtest.net/result/8762732964
MT - https://www.speedtest.net/result/8762738246

VOXI - 4G

BSc (Hons) Cyber Security
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 22-Jan-20 11:59:48
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Re: Is Broadband behind in the UK? (Speeds, phone lines etc)


[re: robbieglover2k7] [link to this post]
 
In rural areas we ahead of most countries.

In cities we lagging, but are finally getting FTTP deployment, note the g.fast slowdown is due to a shift to FTTP not a complete cancellation of rollouts.

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