Landline Number Porting

it was suggested that I post this on this Forum.
On going problem of moving landline from one provider using Openreach to another provider using Openreach.
This should be is simple as it gets.
Number goes back to British Telecom days. Mine for over 40 years, over 30 at present address.
Everything appeared to go smoothly, calls in and out but discovered we were unreachable from some people (they received ring tone but our phone never rang).
After help from another forum and extreme persistence on my part finally managed to persuade my new provider there was a problem. Their only solution was to give me a temporary number, then request my old number back.
This has now been achieved, but the problem still persists. Is it sensible to give it a few days to settle? The only difference from before is the previous provider claim to have released the number now.
Is the process of changing the number equivalent to the process of a new provider taking over a line?
This has me confused, but not as much as the new provider.
If I moved on to another provider would it help?

Can't answer your questions but I ported a couple of times. Number was originally Bell Cable then Virgin Media then BT now Sipgate, I believe. Think I had trouble when I tried moving it back to Virgin from BT, hence my "solution" was to move it to VOIP. Been fine for many (around six) years.

Edited by hk11 (Thu 13-Aug-20 23:19:14)

Anyone know anything about the work of the OTA?
Having seen elsewhere how complex the problem is it seems to be prudent to give up and take a new number.

In reply to a post by CRD32:

it was suggested that I post this on this Forum.
On going problem of moving landline from one provider using Openreach to another provider using Openreach.
This should be is simple as it gets.
Number goes back to British Telecom days. Mine for over 40 years, over 30 at present address.
Everything appeared to go smoothly, calls in and out but discovered we were unreachable from some people (they received ring tone but our phone never rang).
After help from another forum and extreme persistence on my part finally managed to persuade my new provider there was a problem. Their only solution was to give me a temporary number, then request my old number back.
This has now been achieved, but the problem still persists. Is it sensible to give it a few days to settle? The only difference from before is the previous provider claim to have released the number now.
Is the process of changing the number equivalent to the process of a new provider taking over a line?
This has me confused, but not as much as the new provider.
If I moved on to another provider would it help?

The changing of a number is not akin to the changing of a provider, all that happens is the number attached to a line changes whilst service remains in place.

Can I ask who the new provider is?

If the number has been released and is back with BT/OR then you having a working service, but clearly you are experiencing issues. You need to press upon your current/new provider to have a discussion with OR and get this sorted. It could be that the routing has gone awry and still trying to send calls over the network of your previous provider. Can you dial 17070 and confirm the number read back is yours?

In reply to a post by hk11:

my "solution" was to move it to VOIP. Been fine for many (around six) years.

I guess this isn't on the agenda for the OP? I did the same with a move back in 2007, because BT couldn't port the number even though the geographical distance was small. It puts me in full control and I haven't looked back since.

Full history
1978 British Telecom
1983 Moved House retained number
Moved to Virgin when they operated over ordinary phone lines. Retained number.
Transferred to TalkTalk by Virgin when they divested themselves of copper users. Retained number.
20 Feb moved from TalkTalk to Vodafone. Retained number and moved to Fibre to the cabinet.
Everything appeared to be fine and received bills from Vodafone. Happy customer.
HOWEVER
TalkTalk continued to bill me and refused to believe I had left them.
I was happy that Vodafone were providing internet as the speed had increased and were charging for the calls I was making.
I could make and receive calls on the old number.
BUT some people could NEVER reach me their attempts receiving ring tone (but my phone n it ringing)
Identified 3 people one on iD mobile, one landline on TalkTalk and another on landline with the Post Office (a TalkTalk clone).
No success with TalkTalk taking this seriously, at CEDR but seem to be toothless lapdogs.
Reported via OFCOM as a porting issue, unsure what OTA actually do.
Eventually convinced Vodafone there was a problem.
They said the only solution was to take.a temporary number for two weeks, then get the old number back.
This has happened and using 17070 I confirm I have the old number back.
HOWEVER on testing with my son on the iD mobile the problem remains. Will test again in a few days, but I am not hopeful.

Is their commonality with those who cannot reach you? Are they all customers of one (or more) particular provider?

Somewhere in TalkTalk's systems your number is still flagged as being theirs. This is why when a user calls you from a TalkTalk line it goes nowhere.

When a user calls you from another provider they presumably pick up the correct tag to forward the call to Vodafone.

The problem lies in TT's systems but if they don't understand that, you're unlikely to be able to get it sorted.

Problem has not cleared itself.

Analysis from elsewhere. Any comments?

TalkTalk - uses their own wholesale / local-loop network
Post Office - uses TalkTalk's wholesale network
iD - is a Mobile MVNO owned & run by TalkTalk not really associated with TalkTalk's wholesale / local-loop network.
However, although there is a common factor - it doesn't from a user point-of-view point towards who is actually at fault. Only verifying call signalling at the four points would identify the exact issue:
TalkTalk core network
TalkTalk interconnection network with Vodafone
Vodafone interconnection network with TalkTalk
Vodafone core network
The reason is that each interconnection is typically treated as a totally different source of call and therefore, the config for manipulation for one destination number may need to be setup separately for each interconnection.

For ring-tone to be received by the call originator - only means that the originator's network has received a specific message from what the originator's network believes is the destination network... who _actually_ creates that specific message can only be identified by troubleshooting the 4 points above.
See the simplified call flow diagram here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISDN_User_Part

Therefore, either of the following may apply:
TalkTalk is doing everything correctly and forwards call towards Vodafone - but Vodafone for reasons currently unknown sends back the specific message saying that your number is ringing... which is duly reported as ring-tone to the originating subscribers; however, your number never rings.
TalkTalk thinks you still belong to their network - and when an incoming call to your number arrives - sends to their exchange equipment where they think you are still connected (which is no-longer connected to their exchange equipment as you have switched/ported) which duly rings (but since you are not attached your phone doesn't ring) and returns the specific message saying that your number is ringing.. which is duly reported as ring-tone to the originating subscribers; however, as your phone is no longer connected to TalkTalk's exchange equipment your number never rings.
(The above assumes that in local-loop number switching/porting typical case that your physical connection gets swapped from one land-line operator's exchange equipment to another... though, this may not be entirely true depending on where you live and what equipment the operators have at that location).

Number porting is something Ofcom care about a great deal, and it's led by the gaining provider - they are the ones you need to complain to.

In reply to a post by CRD32:

They said the only solution was to take.a temporary number for two weeks, then get the old number back.
This has happened and using 17070 I confirm I have the old number back.
HOWEVER on testing with my son on the iD mobile the problem remains. Will test again in a few days, but I am not hopeful.

So did the issue still happen on the temporary number?

OFCOM may care about it a great deal, but they will do nothing about it on an individual case.
You can report a number porting issue specifically and they will give you a reference. I believe they do some form of investigation, but you as a customer are not given any feedback
The reference can expedite (supposedly) the response under some circumstances, but I am unsure of it is any help here and no provider has shown any interest when I have offered it up
There is yet another group OTA? that has some responsibility for number porting issues, but I cannot see how a customer has any way of raising an issue.

TalkTalk, Post Office, iD (Carphone Warehouse)

I believe Post Office use TalkTalk.

Some doubt about how iD is supported

When with temporary number we could be reached by our son on iD, but never before (since 20 February) and now not again.

Fine on temporary number with my son on the iD mobile. I am using him as my tester.

OTA is a direction body, i.e. not a help individuals body

Thank you. There was a letter on the OFCOM site to the OTA that could be read in a different way. They do supposedly investigate porting issues and give a reference number. I did get one, but no feedback to the user.
I discovered the OTA website again, I think it was had a revamp and is now OTA2.
There seems to be a lot of direction from OFCOM (and money spent on PR and websites), but little or no practical testing or using examples as test cases to flush out problems.
I do not think there is any body that helps individuals.

Latest from Vodafone

The reason given to me is (as far as I can understand it is)

TalkTalk have seized the number and so preventing subscribers to their network calling me
The Openreach engineer is going to do something at the cabinet on Monday then come to the house
Vodafone will call on Wednesday to check it has worked
I was unable to speak with anyone who can convince me this is going to work, but at least is action of sorts.

Thanks for all your help, not convinced this will work, but I am at the mercy of my supplier. I will ensure the Openreach engineer explains it to me as far as possible and allows me to request a call back from one of the problem numbers.

Wish me luck

Openreach engineer arrived checked line, no problem with line. Switched equipment Vodafone to Vodafone at local exchange/MDF no change. Talked to Openreach Porting. Some anomaly but no difference in calls from one of my test cases. Escalation within Openreach.

Before you give up, I would suggest writing to your current provider, summarising the history of the problem and asking them to now take effective action within 30 days to correct it, failing which you will escalate through their Ombudsman procedure. The Ombudsman procedure is a bit of a bore for the provider, but it does at least get the provider to account for their actions which sometimes gets things fixed. If you go this route make a claim for all your time that has been expended on this and the inconvenience of callers not being able to contact you. Start with a claim for several hundred pounds, not that you'll be awarded much in practice.

From the history you describe, Talk Talk are likely to be the problem and it is notoriously difficult for one provider to sort out issues with another one. The tendency is therefore not to bother.

Forget about Ofcom and OTA- Government has decided that they should not deal with customer problems.

You could, of course, write to your MP saying that the Gov't regulatory process does not work and please would she/he fix it- occasionally this prods action, but these days only occasionally.

Thank you.
I think finally Vodafone are trying their best.
The responses from TalkTalk have proven to be less than honest and certainly not at all helpful.
They are quite oblivious to how many regulations they flought.
To date the ombudsmen have been less of a watchdog and act as an retention of the TalkTalk i ineffectual complaints mechanism. There seems to be a total lack of accountability. I think they have got away with things for year and think there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Very annoyed by the public face of OFCOM and lack of any accountability. They may do something if enough people complain.

Just to give you the end of this story.

Vodafone never did get it. They ended up falsifying their own records and threatening their staff with disciplinary action if they did anything to help me. Said the problem was only with the three numbers I had given them even though I found others by the simple expedient of checking my contacts for those with TalkTalk email addresses asking if they were still with TalkTalk phone, then asking if they could reach me by phone. Unsurprisingly they couldn't.

Given this, I took the only option left to me I and moved to BT. After a process of over 6 months where TalkTalk repeatedly denied there was a problem, then repeatedly claimed they had fixed it when they hadn't, until it was finally fixed.

I have no idea if this was the only time that this happened ever, but by what I learnt on the way I have heard of other cases of unexplained similar faults. However, only a complete geek would have pursued it through to its resolution. It is too easy for a company to repeatedly deny there is a problem and refuse the customer any access to an expert who is capable of explaining what has gone wrong and why it is too difficult to fix. I almost gave up with BT until I realised taking a new number would leave it there waiting to be reissued to a new unexpecting customer with the same unresolved problem. I see why landlines are coming to the end of their lives.

Did you ever ask one of your TalkTalk contacts to raise a fault saying they couldn't reach your number using their TalkTalk line (but if they used their mobile or another line they goy through no problem)?

Two of the three original numbers identified were not appropriate to ask. Not technical or recent death in the family. Also I would be reluctant to suggest anyone attempted to get any sense out of TalkTalk. However, my son did take it up through his mobile provider. He was thoroughly fed up with repeatedly being asked for timed calls an abortive tests when it was claimed to be fixed off. He did persist for some time, but we decided to give up when he was offered a new SIM as a solution.
I am not a telco engineer but a mathematician with wide and varied problem solving experience. I have worked in environments where people work together to solve problems even where there were potentially blame games.
What I have read up on the OFCOM site shows squabbling factions with no engineering vision. If you do not recognise and acknowledge problems you will never be able to create robust solutions. I found no way to bring the fault to the attention and only achieved the record for the most tested local loop.
I think I was exceptionally lucky I didn't join the System X effort in 1977.