ISP - Backhaul

Is there a list of ISP to Backhaul provider?
I know PlusNet use OpenReach direct but how about Shell and others do they piggyback of Plusnet or?

I believe Plusnet use a BT Wholesale back haul.

No idea about shell

In reply to a post by rombic:

Is there a list of ISP to Backhaul provider?
I know PlusNet use OpenReach direct but how about Shell and others do they piggyback of Plusnet or?

Plusnet don't use OpenReach direct but rather they buy from BT Wholesale who buy from OpenReach.

Providers with their own backhaul tend to buy direct from OpenReach.
Those without their own backhaul usually buy from BT Wholesale or Talktalk Business, but there are others who wholesale too.

There's no list that I'm aware of, but I'm sure someone will list the main providers.

I think Shell use TalkTalk - they can't offer any broadband at all in my area, so they presumably don't use BT/OR at all.

We could kick that off here, for what it’s worth…

Lunch hour starter for ten for ISP/CP and backhaul provider 😉 Hopefully correct!

BT Retail - BT Wholesale (BTW)
BT Business - BTW
Cerberus Networks - BTW
NOW Broadband - BSkyB
Plusnet - BTW
Sky Broadband - BSkyB
Sky Connect - BSkyB
TalkTalk (retail) - TalkTalkBusiness (TTB)
TalkTalk Business - TTB
Vodafone - Vodafone (ex Cable & Wireless)

There's also Zen, Daisy and Gamma for backhaul although the latter two are mainly for business ISPs

Thanks
Dan

TalkTalk (Retails do not use TalkTalk Business) only for TalkTalk Business will do their own TTB

They both use TalkTalk Business Wholesale backhaul. In the same way as BT Consumer and BT Business both use BT Wholesale.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Sky Broadband - BSkyB
Sky Connect - BSkyB

Can't add to the list, but BSkyB is now "Sky UK Limited" which is wholly owned subsidury of Comcast owned "Sky Group Limited" Changed in 2014 when BskyB bought Sky Italia. Comcast took over all shares of the Murdoch empire.

Edited by jchamier (Tue 15-Jun-21 21:16:28)

Let’s just called them Sky 😉

From the remaining big providers, there is I suppose Zen and Postoffice. I thought Zen used BTW and TTB (and themselves!). Not sure about Postoffice?

Edit- oops can’t neglect KCOM (I suppose they use their own) and Glide are pretty big too; again I though they did a lot of their own stuff, perhaps with some others.

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 15-Jun-21 21:25:37)

The Post Office broadband, I expect phone service as well), was sold to Shell Energy in February.

As far as I know, Shell Energy still use TalkTalk Business Wholesale. ISPreview 10/7/19.

IDNet
* Zen
* BTW
* TalkTalk?

Edited by Andrue (Tue 15-Jun-21 22:05:42)

Thanks Bob. I don’t suppose Shell have transitioned all the existing PO subscribers onto TTB backhaul (if they weren’t already using TTB as PO).

I didn’t realise Post Office have (or had) something like 400K subscribers.

Edit: looks like they sold both broadband and phone services to Shell:
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/broadband-phone/importa...

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 15-Jun-21 22:25:00)

In reply to a post by Andrue:

IDNet
* Zen
* BTW
* TalkTalk?

Thanks Andrue. Noticed your edit to round out with the usual suspects. I expect this list would be shorter if we flipped it with the key backhaul providers and which ISPs were customers!

Certainly at one point TTB were the underlying Post Office phone and broadband provider. I think that was right up to the sale of those customer accounts to Shell.

I have a vague memory of a couple of earlier suppliers but not which companies they were.

AAISP - BTW & TTB
Pulse8broadband - TTB (option to keep PSTN with other providers)

Edited by pluralist (Wed 16-Jun-21 10:22:53)

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

I think Shell use TalkTalk - they can't offer any broadband at all in my area, so they presumably don't use BT/OR at all.

I've never seen a TalkTalk manhole cover so I would suggest that they have very little of their own physical network and most LLU operators use rented openreach circuits to daisy chain between exchanges and eventually link up a whole load of exchanges to a circuit on another provider's POP.

Whilst I agree with what you say, if we assume the poster is referring purely to their own area/exchange then their post simply implies that TalkTalk has no (LLU) presence in that exchange. AIUI TalkTalk no longer use BT Wholesale at exchanges, but does not have 100% UK coverage.

That would explain Shell not being able to supply there.

Clearly TT use OR wherever they do supply. The poster should have referred to BT Wholesale.

Edited by pluralist (Wed 16-Jun-21 13:49:26)

TalkTalk have a massive physical network.

Whilst they do use BT and Virgin leased lines, they also have their own pops and fiber, ethernet and dark fiber with quite a substantial core network.

https://www.talktalkbusiness.co.uk/why-talktalk-busi...

Edited by wolvesmad (Wed 16-Jun-21 16:25:30)

Have you seen any TalkTalk manhole covers?

What's that got to do with anything?

How many daisy manhole covers have you seen?

How many Zen manhole covers have you seen?

Are you saying the above don't have their own physical network too?

The vast majority of people would not see TT manhole covers in the local loop area as they use Openreach as I think we all agree. But backhaul from the exchanges is another matter entirely. There's an awful lot of dark fibre around for long-term leasing from non-Openreach suppliers.

And .... Has anyone seen any Openreach manhole covers?
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

Edited by pluralist (Wed 16-Jun-21 17:02:42)

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Have you seen any TalkTalk manhole covers?

That's only the last mile. It represents a tiny fraction of the total 'backhaul distance'.

There are a lot of different CPs (and private companies) that have their own fibre or that are renting someone else' fibre in exchanges. These links can connect to other exchanges or they can connect to a spine and form a national data network that they own and that is separate from BT's.

TalkTalk have - for all practical purposes - their own network connecting most exchanges together

Edited by Andrue (Wed 16-Jun-21 17:23:16)

When Sky acquired Easynet did they also acquire the ipsaris fiber network?

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

When Sky acquired Easynet did they also acquire the ipsaris fiber network?

Sky only owned Easynet for 4 years they sold it in 2010. Eventually sold to Interoute, whom are now part of the GTT Networks group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easynet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoute

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

When Sky acquired Easynet did they also acquire the ipsaris fiber network?

Yes.

Also just FYI TalkTalk lease their network elements. There are relatively few providers of national fibre networks and TalkTalk / Opal aren't one of them.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

When Sky acquired Easynet did they also acquire the ipsaris fiber network?

Sky only owned Easynet for 4 years they sold it in 2010. Eventually sold to Interoute, whom are now part of the GTT Networks group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easynet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoute

No, Sky spun off a business connectivity provider called Easynet, they didn't sell the same thing they acquired. The name was continued but the assets were quite different.

Sky own what was the Easynet fibre network, including the formerly Ipsaris components.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

No, Sky spun off a business connectivity provider called Easynet, they didn't sell the same thing they acquired. The name was continued but the assets were quite different.

Sky own what was the Easynet fibre network, including the formerly Ipsaris components.

Thanks, useful to know, especially as they apparently have kit in most BT exchanges.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Thanks, useful to know, especially as they apparently have kit in most BT exchanges.

Easynet have long-term use of Sky's network and make use of the Sky-owned kit in exchanges.

No doubt they use GTT/Interoute assets as well now but when they were spun off they were basically wholesaling Sky's network.

I have never seen manhole covers with Zen or Daisy on them so I would presume that they rent circuits off of other providers like TalkTalk do

I've always been under the impression that the 2x national TT core networks were their own fiber cores?

The exchange backhaul is leased via Virgin or BT.

Yeah Glide are pretty big, they even install FTTC cabinets.

Thanks
Dan

Yup. Courtesy of Horton Rd, West Drayton

https://postimg.cc/FYvdHsxd

Many thanks Pheasant very helpful.

I think it’s disappointing this information is not more widely available. My experience with the many ISP over the past 20 or so years is those ISP’s who piggy-back the likes of TalkTalk (there must be a technical term for it) have the most bandwidth issues..

With it so difficult to get out of a contract it should be a requirement for the ISP to state who they get their Bandwidth from so the user is better informed.

I should also thank everyone else who has replied to my original question. It has been a very interesting and informative ride.

" who piggy-back the likes of TalkTalk (there must be a technical term for it) have the most bandwidth issues.."

We use Utility Warehouse (Talk Talk) and have had no issues in 7 years.

Many thanks Pheasant very helpful

I think it’s disappointing this information is not more widely available. My experience with the many ISP over the past 20 or so years is those ISP’s who piggy-back the likes of TalkTalk (there must be a technical term for it) have the most bandwidth issues.

With it so difficult to get out of a contract it should be a requirement for the ISP to state who they get their Bandwidth from so the user is better informed.

It's nice they put them where Openreach don't, I've got around 6 customers all in different areas of the country that have cabinets and offer up to 100/40.
It is just a shame that they charge £120 + VAT per month for an 80/20 connection.

Thanks
Dan

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

I have never seen manhole covers with Zen or Daisy on them so I would presume that they rent circuits off of other providers like TalkTalk do

A couple of years ago I got a card through the letterbox. "TT for everyone". Nice (cheaper) price, I went online only to find they didn't service the village either through their own circuits or for that matter, anyone else. Not even with BT, who I was with at the time. I was with TT when I lived in Somerset. It was a TT LLU service all the way with their own equipment/cables run in to the local exchange building. So many people think its a BT/OR only environment out there. Yes, it might have been years ago but time has moved on. You'll find TT Business are quite a major player in their own rights.

It was the same with my recent FTTP 'upgrade', not a BT/OR van in sight. The local ISP did the fibre install and currently they use TT Business for the backhaul, also currently building their own backhaul for further resilience. Again OR don't even come into the mix at any point. As for connectivity, no complaints here. My weather station has been online for months now, whereas with the BT/OR FTTC service it would disconnect every so often.

As for no TTB labels on manholes. Don't see OR either, at least not round these parts.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

It's nice they put them where Openreach don't, I've got around 6 customers all in different areas of the country that have cabinets and offer up to 100/40.
It is just a shame that they charge £120 + VAT per month for an 80/20 connection.

Thanks
Dan

Do they happen to use Zayo at all ~~?

Not sure, looks like they run their own fibre.

Glide

Thanks
Dan

I only ask as there was a Zayo lidded footpath chamber not far from the cab. Probably just a coincidence.

No Openreach is involved as you are on an Altnet for your FTTP, the fibre will run back to a central point where they have provided their own backhaul or they may rent it of someone else to get back to their core network.

Thanks
Dan

There aren't 2 core networks as far as I know, retail and business run on the same network.

TalkTalk do not own their own national fibre network. As mentioned there are relatively few of them, even Virgin Media lease some core fibre, and TT aren't one.

I know Virgin Media Business use BT Wholesale and TTB where they don't have their own backhaul

Thanks
Dan

Granted this is 5 years old but does mention two national cores......

https://www.talktalkgroup.com/dam/jcr:b55a1d43-aa3a-...

From your own link:

Regulated access with falling input costs: Access to the copper infrastructure that connects UK premises to BT’s nationwide exchange footprint is price regulated by Ofcom, while fibre backhaul (the process of transporting data via exchanges to the Group’s core network) and dark fibre (the Group’s collector ring and core network) are leased on competitive terms from multiple providers.

I can't see anything about two core networks. The second page of the PDF mentions one network. It makes no sense running two. Only time that would happen would be when migrating from older to newer equipment and standards.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Thu 17-Jun-21 17:22:26)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

TalkTalk do not own their own national fibre network. As mentioned there are relatively few of them, even Virgin Media lease some core fibre, and TT aren't one.

National fibre networks. The history of that subject probably deserves a thread all of its own!

Page 5, two separate national networks.

In reply to a post by rombic:

With it so difficult to get out of a contract it should be a requirement for the ISP to state who they get their Bandwidth from so the user is better informed.

There's one with a good reputation on these forums, pulse8broadband, with several people using it, that runs on TalkTalk Business Wholesale. So not "piggybacking" any more than those that use BT Wholesale. It only does monthly contracts and the prices are competitive.

Oh, that. Legacy and new transmission networks with leases being run down on equipment. Think the older one is retired now. Running separate ones is never anything other than a temporary measure but well played them for making a transmission upgrade appear to be two networks.

Running two separate networks doubles a bunch of costs for minimal benefit and they almost certainly won't have been totally separate then.

They should publish a new one of those now. Things will be very different. Individual exchanges have at least one 10G so fair to say their aggregation network isn't going to be 10G anymore.

In what way does 'TalkTalk Business Wholesale" backhaul differ from normal TalkTalk backhaul?

Surely they are just using the same rented circuits. Is the only difference the marketing and number of resellers and referral operators involved?

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

In what way does 'TalkTalk Business Wholesale" backhaul differ from normal TalkTalk backhaul?

I think you need to read my post again .