Access to 999 during a power cut :OFCOM investigation

All

Many people have been worrying on different threads about access to emergency service during power outages with the move to VOIP. OFCOM have now started their own look at this.

OFCOM have opened a compliance programme to look into this 11/07/2022 and also a fact sheet on moving landlines to digital technology (VOIP).

Thanks kitcat

A good move by Ofcom. Albeit it took several catastrophic winter storms, and a lot of public opprobrium to spurn them into action.

Let's see where this leads. Hopefully a more resilient infrastructure!

Can I add, from a purely selfish point of view, that I hope that Ofcom’s findings and rulings based on this are applied to ALL service providers equally.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Can I add, from a purely selfish point of view, that I hope that Ofcom’s findings and rulings based on this are applied to ALL service providers equally.

Pigs might fly before that happens! Give me one example of a "level playing field" in the telecomms field.

Has anything been said about the ability of mobile masts to retain power in the event of power cuts? We live in a rural area and multiple hour power cuts are not unusual. It has been reported that the batery back up at masts is very limited.

It needs including.

With each mast the mobile operators will look at usage, potential length of outages, frequency of outages and then decide on how much reserve power is needed - and even then there will be the cases where an outage exceeds the back-up.

I know of one location where there are now two masts with mutiple operators, multi-frequency transmitters. They have a generator there alongside short term battery supply - but then how much fuel is stored? Do they put in enough for 6 hours, 1 day, 1 week ? All with the risk, being an isolated location, of regular theft.

Pigs might fly before that happens! Give me one example of a "level playing field" in the telecomms field.

Surely that ought to be a primary goal of Ofcom ? 🤷‍♂️

But since you mention pigs …… “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

It was ever so.

Zarjaz

The documents says ALL providers so it should cover all networks including Mobile ( especially as mobile is where the vast majority of emergency calls come from)

Some fixed may be more affected than others, so ones only operating in cities with good mobile coverage and few power cuts may be less affected than ones operating in rural areas with poor mobile coverage. ( Thinking BARN, Jurassic etc type deployments as well as OR).. Not clear whether it will cover retail providers as well as infrastructure but it needs to as not just the ONT but router/ATA need to have backup.

This is where the level playing field is usually tilted as BTR will be forced to provide for vulnerable customers whereas others have been allowed to opt out restricting customer choice and loading all the cost on BT.

Text says;

In the first stage of this compliance monitoring programme, Ofcom will gather information from a range of alternative network providers and VoIP providers in order to understand what they are doing to ensure that they comply with their obligations.

To me suggests Ofcom are gathering evidence primarily from fixed AltNet service providers and VoIP providers in the first instance.

BT I understand already have an compliance initiative in play since the kerfuffle of the winter storms as do some of the mobile network providers following attention from certain MPs in affected constituencies.

I believe when people order digital voice through Sky they have to declare they have other means of contacting the emergency services, I am not sure what happens if people say they don't.

There was a restriction, as I recall, in their terms on their Ultrafast offerings when they launched as to having active mobile service (for backup comms in the event of outage). Not sure if they still are there. Haven’t looked tbh

Tagging on the end of the thread.

Not sure how much this would really impact on AltNets - a lot of AltNets presumably don't provide landlines as they only provide the broadband itself.

I think that’s precisely the point of this Ofcom exercise.

The brave new world works on top of IP. Everything basically now runs or soon will over the top.

If Mr AltNet can’t stand up the network foundation, then the VoIP that runs over the top has no hope.

But the AltNet isn't supplying VoIP in most cases. They are not selling a telephony solution. It will be interesting how much AltNets fight back against needing to provide protection for power outages on a service that was never sold for telephony (in fact in most cases there is still probably a BT line running the telephony that BT would then move to digital voice - meaning the AltNet is not involved).

I'm not a lawyer - but I think that depends on the legal interpretations in the General Conditions of Entitlement as to how Ofcom treat the responsibilities of a comms service provider.

Ultimately I guess Ofcom want to avoid the situation where folks that have service from an AltNet + (separate) VoIP service provider don't have an equivalent level of "protection" from power faults etc. than an Altnet that offers a bundled broadband + VoIP service. I can see both sides of the coin though.

Watch and see what eventuates I guess

Edit:
Have been skimming through the various CP responses to the original 2018 Ofcom consultation and “4 principles”.

Predictably very strong pushback from the VoIP only providers - arguing essentially that if they had to be responsible for physical battery backup on every type of imaginable network it would be overly burdensome and unfair. See Voipfone response. Again pushback from Vonage.

All feedback listed here:
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statement...

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 12-Jul-22 21:37:50)

In reply to a post by ian72:

Not sure how much this would really impact on AltNets - a lot of AltNets presumably don't provide landlines as they only provide the broadband itself.

Interetsing, as some partner with the likes of Vonage.

Given Virgin Media is VoIP for all new home phone line installations, through their Hub, shouldn't Ofcom be reviewing VM as well?

You’d presume that they fall squarely under scope of this: perhaps as the one of the earliest “alternate networks” - which we’ve come to presume means FTTP - but HFC and RFOG serve millions too.

Edit:

Interesting response here from VM to the original 2018 “four principles proposal” by Ofcom.

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 12-Jul-22 21:23:36)

My understanding is even the old POTS system was not always 100% available (well obviously) to service emergency service calls etc so not sure why people overly panic.

I guess an SLA needs to be set, but is that SLA even measured on the existing services?

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

My understanding is even the old POTS system was not always 100% available (well obviously) to service emergency service calls etc so not sure why people overly panic.

Of course that's true, but I do think it's hard to argue with the notion that over the last 30 odd years at least the BT / Openreach provided POTS/PSTN service has reached a level of reliability and availability that is very good.

I kinda see the inevitable switch over to an all digital VoIP future also entailing an inevitable change where no single service has that same level of reliability, availbility and robustness.

Pipexer

PSTN Target platform wide was 5 nines, so 99.999% availability. ( so 5min downtime per year)

It has hit that for years. However many lines are well above this ( less downtime) and a small minority exceed the downtime on a regular basis usually due to the exposed overhead lines.

I do not know what effect the storms in the north last year had against the target but no doubt BT would claim that was exceptional and anybody affected would tend to agree with that.

It looks like Ofcom have woken up 20 years to late. VOIP has been on the horizon that long and only been held up because of BT sweating its copper and Ofcom not having a clue.

I think the ship has already sailed for home voice services given the increase in broadband-only packages in the market. I don’t see how resilience rules will make any difference to the increasing number of people who don’t even have a voice service tied to their home connection.

I would like to see more resilience in the mobile voice network during power outages. We need planning and coordination to ensure mobiles can always call the emergency services from almost anywhere, even during long term power outages. If I were in a power outage that could last days or weeks, I’d switch off my phone to save the battery—in case I need it to make an emergency call.

…sailed? Probably hoisted the spinnaker in sight of the 2025 finish line…But they still should resolve deficiencies, especially for the most vulnerable folk that rely solely on landlines.

Agreed that the mobile network, as a last report, especially in rural areas requires attention to make it more resilient - especially areas that suffer from repeated storm damage and power failure. Little point propping up routers and modems for VoIP if the fibre and copper cables are lying on the road.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

. . . especially for the most vulnerable folk that rely solely on landlines. . . .

Misses the point for the small percentage of the population who live (and will continue to live) in those parts of the countryside where there is no economic prospect of a mobile service. Many of the people living in those areas would not be classified as vulnerable but will still be placed at personal risk when the PSTN system is closed down.

Small numbers but is it right that they should lose a current service and be sacrificed at the altar of big business profits?

Thorny issue indeed GP. What measures would you think could help these folks (noting they’re not going to change their collective mind on withdrawing PSTN)? What sort of numbers are we talking about (presumably in your neck of the woods) that are in this situation? Is this on the radar of your local MP / are they doing anything about it? If you had mobile service would this alleviate the issue?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Thorny issue indeed GP.

I was thinking is this where the calculations around the USO kick in, such as how much to serve one or two remote customers, is it £1m per customer or £5m per customer? Where is the line, and sadly there will need to be a line.

I'd say continued expansion of the SRN is the way to go.

It seems we're primarily discussing: rural properties which currently have a landline but no mobile coverage, and are at risk of storm damage to power lines but at less risk of storm damage to phone lines. Is that right?

As long as there is a battery backup for the router, and battery backup in the FTTC cabinet if relevant, I don't see how VoIP is going to be noticeably worse in this situation.

For the most isolated areas, having something like a community VHF radio for emergency calling is, and will continue to be, a good idea.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

As long as there is a battery backup for the router, and battery backup in the FTTC cabinet if relevant, I don't see how VoIP is going to be noticeably worse in this situation.

Ofcom say that home battery backups only have to last for 1 hour. Most power cuts I have had have lasted for several hours and in recent years we have had two power cuts that lasted for about 48 hours.

The power cuts have often been due to trees falling on power lines. If this happens I would like to see the local electricity providers being made to pay large fines for allowing trees to grow near the lines.

I would like to see Ofcom stating that if VOIP has to be used for landline calls there should be at least 1 mobile network where the signal is strong enough to be received indoors.

Terrestrial comms is still a system with many possible points of failure - whether that’s PSTN or bullet-proofed VOIP.

Really needs another reliable and independent means of communication, typically fulfilled by mobile networks. Farms typically have access to VHF/UHF. The range is good on VHF but if you’re in a steep sided valley it might need a repeater to get out.

Shared LEO (like Starlink or OneWeb) would be an option for a small hamlet / group of houses.

One of my neighbours tried with Sky and when he said he had no means of calling the emergency services after moving to FTTP, he was told they couldn't continue with the process

Edited by filbert42 (Sat 08-Oct-22 21:19:07)

Hearsay. Carry on 😂

A basic UPS will sort this problem. investigation done

Food banks don't give UPSs away.

In reply to a post by PC8S:

A basic UPS will sort this problem. investigation done

And for rural areas where power cuts are typically 12 hours or more? Investigation done for metropolitan areas (where the OfCOM bureaucrats live) and where the average power cut is 45 mins (according to OfCOM data) but there is another world beyond those metropolitan areas.

I suspect the real flaw with PC8S’s post … is that those most commonly using a landline (in residential use) tend to be of advancing years… and to them, a UPS is unwanted witchcraft and sorcery.

The early Openreach FTTP products had battery back up units, and the choice of an FVA service … but CP’s weren’t keen, and with withdrawal of product able to shave a few pence off … the bean counters won.

With a 3 hour planned electricity outage over this winter due to gas shortages will a basic UPS last long enough?

Jury may still be out on metropolitan areas as well!

Hopefully some OFCOM bureaucrats will get affected and lose their voice service so that they at least make a decision on an informed (been affected) basis.

There's some good links in https://landlinesgo.digital/powercut/ for ideas including to some information provided by B4RN on different UPS devices and how long they would last.

In reply to a post by filbert42:

One of my neighbours tried with Sky and when he said he had no means of calling the emergency services after moving to FTTP, he was told they couldn't continue with the process

So you're saying Sky would rather not provide any broadband and voice service than providing a solution to the customer to enable calls to be made during a powercut ?

If the majority of providers went down that route then initially there would be a reduced and limited choice of providers to those wanting a fixed line voice service and longer term potentially seeing fixed line voice service disappear completely by 2025?? Leaving those who want and use a fixed line voice service without any at all.

Under OFCOM guidelines Sky should work with the customer to provide a solution to allow calls during a powercut, e.g be that a mobile phone, UPS device or this latest concept of a hybrid phone.

I’m trying out one of these 12v plug packs with Lithium batteries inside, just to see what sort of realistic backup they provide. The voltage and barrel connector is compatible with latest Zyxel 4/5G modem from Three as well as all the ONTs as provided by Openreach.

https://www.powerinspired.com/product-range/ipower-d...

Not too bad for £47 delivered.

Then there is a higher capacity Eaton 3S Mini DC ups that is available from Amazon for the same outlay. It has the advantage of variable DC voltage outputs and a range of barrel tips/sizes. I’ve tried this one out on Openreach ONTs and it will easily stand them up for 5 hours or more.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

Under OFCOM guidelines Sky should work with the customer to provide a solution to allow calls during a powercut, e.g be that a mobile phone, UPS device or this latest concept of a hybrid phone.

In my opinion a period of education to ensure everyone has a charged mobile phone available in an emergency is appropriate. In addition to power cuts, it also protects people during landline outages.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

https://www.powerinspired.com/product-range/ipower-d...

Not too bad for £47 delivered.

The brochure gives the spec as 3350mAh @ 3.6V, or about 12Wh. The Eaton one, at 4400mAh, is slightly more, about 16Wh.

With a 2W ONT that would give 6-8 hours if there were zero conversion losses and 100% discharge cycle, so 5 hours in reality sounds about right.

But these days, an ONT without a router isn't very useful. A router with one of those is going to give a lot less runtime - if it's 10W then about an hour.

Ideally I'd want to run the ONT and the router from the same power source, so that they both run for the same amount of time. Mobile phone "power packs" are available in bigger capacities, if you can find one with 12V output.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I suspect the real flaw with PC8S’s post … is that those most commonly using a landline (in residential use) tend to be of advancing years… and to them, a UPS is unwanted witchcraft and sorcery.

In the 1950's and early 1960's, when I was a lad, a run for half a mile to the nearest phone box was the only way to make a 999 call...however we somehow survived in that semi-rural area without a landline

Now it seems we are far too dependent on a reliable electricity supply and will have to resort to witchcraft and sorcery to make an emergency call in the event of a prolonged power cut!

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 09-Oct-22 16:03:53)

Currently doing a run-down test with the iPower-H mini-UPS to power a Three UK supplied Zyxel NR5103E 4/5G router with 5GHz WiFi running. Will update on findings.

ONTs draw comparatively very little power in comparison, I will have to check my exact measured figures but as I recall it wasn't much more than 1.5 watts in steady state operation. As you say if also powering a router - with thirsty WiFi especially - the draw could be north of 12 watts in steady state.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In the 1950's and early 1960's, when I was a lad, a run for half a mile to the nearest phone box was the only way to make a 999 call...however we somehow survived in that semi-rural area without a landline

There are (basically) no phone boxes now, so good luck with that...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Currently doing a run-down test with the iPower-H mini-UPS to power a Three UK supplied Zyxel NR5103E 4/5G router with 5GHz WiFi running. Will update on findings.

ONTs draw comparatively very little power in comparison, I will have to check my exact measured figures but as I recall it wasn't much more than 1.5 watts in steady state operation. As you say if also powering a router - with thirsty WiFi especially - the draw could be north of 12 watts in steady state.

So with the £47 iPower-H mini-UPS managed to the hold up the Zyxel NR5103 5G router for a grand total of 1hr:35min. Not too shabby, but won't make 3 hours sans AC for sure.

Now its the turn of the Eaton 3S Mini...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I suspect the real flaw with PC8S’s post … is that those most commonly using a landline (in residential use) tend to be of advancing years… and to them, a UPS is unwanted witchcraft and sorcery.

In the 1950's and early 1960's, when I was a lad, a run for half a mile to the nearest phone box was the only way to make a 999 call...however we somehow survived in that semi-rural area without a landline

Now it seems we are far too dependent on a reliable electricity supply and will have to resort to witchcraft and sorcery to make an emergency call in the event of a prolonged power cut!

Bye goom, you were lucky.

We 'ad to run, not walk, up the nearest mountain. Then we 'ad to rub two sticks together to light the beacon, if it were not raining of course.

Assuming that the other beacon tenders were not asleep, we could expect help within a week.

Trouble with the younger generation, they 'ave no imagination or resilience.

NOTE: This is an attempt at humor.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In my opinion a period of education to ensure everyone has a charged mobile phone available in an emergency is appropriate. In addition to power cuts, it also protects people during landline outages.

Assumine the local cell site has a UPS itself. In 2015 we had a 5 hour power cut, and two of the local masts went out (for EE & Three); which meant both of those networks were unusable. Vodafone and O2 were overloaded as the masts just outside of the area with the power cut couldn't take the load from their existing customer base. Driving 5 miles up the road fixed everything. Not an option for all.

Having multiple options for resilience is a good idea, but it is unclear how much active equipment in the streets will go out, e.g. Openreach FTTC/VDSL cabinets have batteries, but Virgin Media does not, and what about the AltNets?

A UPS at home is not a bad move, but it may not be the fix.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 09-Oct-22 17:24:40)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

Under OFCOM guidelines Sky should work with the customer to provide a solution to allow calls during a powercut, e.g be that a mobile phone, UPS device or this latest concept of a hybrid phone.

In my opinion a period of education to ensure everyone has a charged mobile phone available in an emergency is appropriate. In addition to power cuts, it also protects people during landline outages.

Another metropolitan solution to a rural problem. The problem is not education, it is infrastructure. If you do have a mobile signal @jchamier has already pointed out the pitfalls. More worrying for some rural inhabitants is that the 12-hour plus power cut zones do show a correlation with the areas without mobile phone signals.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Another metropolitan solution to a rural problem.

It's not exclusively a rural problem though, there are people in metropolitan situations that still do not have a mobile phone charged in case of a power cut / landline outage.

In reply to a post by Rhynchelma:

Bye goom, you were lucky.

We 'ad to run, not walk, up the nearest mountain. Then we 'ad to rub two sticks together to light the beacon, if it were not raining of course.

Assuming that the other beacon tenders were not asleep, we could expect help within a week.

Trouble with the younger generation, they 'ave no imagination or resilience.

NOTE: This is an attempt at humor.

Even sending smoke signals could be difficult from your mountain if it was raining - might have to use semaphore flags as they still do in the navy

True. I'll have to refresh my "Granny's having a funny turn" in semaphore.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Another metropolitan solution to a rural problem.

It's not exclusively a rural problem though, there are people in metropolitan situations that still do not have a mobile phone charged in case of a power cut / landline outage.

So are you hoping to educate "some people in metropolitan areas" rather than "everyone"?

Edited by GonePostal (Sun 09-Oct-22 18:24:24)

Sorry my posts seem to be getting deleted - but I forgot not everyone is as prepared as I am

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

So are you hoping to educate "some people in metropolitan areas" rather than "everyone"?

What are you on about?

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

So are you hoping to educate "some people in metropolitan areas" rather than "everyone"?

What are you on about?

On Sun 09-Oct-22 15:03:24 you posted "In my opinion a period of education to ensure everyone has a charged mobile phone available in an emergency is appropriate." Please explain how that is appropriate for parts of rural communities who do not have a mobile signal at home and do not often travel into areas where there is a signal. Perhaps you live in a metropolitan environment where you have a wider demographic than is seen in lots of rural communities and do not understand how many people outside your experience live their lives.

There is no one-size-fits all solution. It's a logical fallacy to say that a solution which works for one group of users is completely invalid, just because it doesn't work for another group.

I see the following split:

1. There are both urban and rural communities with good mobile coverage. In those areas, having a charged-up mobile phone is a good way to get emergency phone access in a power cut.

Limitation: it depends on the backup power runtime of the local phone masts.

2. There are both urban and rural areas with poor or no mobile coverage. In those cases some other solution is required: this could be a UPS, or access to a community VHF or ham radio, or whatever.

Limitation: communities which have their telecomms fed by overhead cables are vulnerable to losing their ground-based comms at the same time as their power - and this has always been the case.

I expect that over time, the size of group (1) is going to increase and (2) decrease, due to the continued rollout of the Shared Rural Network (SRN).

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Another metropolitan solution to a rural problem.

My response was to this, that is not exclusively a rural problem. candlerb makes some good suggestions in respect of having a hybrid solution.

A lot of rural areas have Altnets rather than Openreach FTTP. Openreach have a history of electrical backups systems - Altnets not so much.
In my area we have Gigaclear. Before I signed up I asked (at length) about their cabinet power backup (I have multiple UPSs at my end). They claim up to 3 hours, but we have had a power cut where it lasted about 2h40m - not bad, but we have had cuts of over 6 hours. It probably wouldn't last a 3 hour "planned" cut.
We do have a nearby cell mast - but that only lasts about 40 mins in a power cut, and then we have no signal at all.
In the event of needing to call 999 in a long power cut we'd have to drive to somewhere where a signal is still available.

when I was a lad, a run for half a mile to the nearest phone box was the only way to make a 999 call

In an emergency I could run up to my local phone box - and borrow a book to read (it's a community library now).

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

when I was a lad, a run for half a mile to the nearest phone box was the only way to make a 999 call

In an emergency I could run up to my local phone box - and borrow a book to read (it's a community library now).

But what if it is dark, there won't be any street lights to be able to read the book by.

In an emergency I could run up to my local phone box - and borrow a book to read (it's a community library now).

But what if it is dark, there won't be any street lights to be able to read the book by.

There are no streetlights here anyway, so if it was dark I'd need a torch to see my way to the phone box. (At night I can see one streetlight from my house, and it is so dim you'd be hard pushed to read by it).

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

In an emergency I could run up to my local phone box - and borrow a book to read (it's a community library now).

But what if it is dark, there won't be any street lights to be able to read the book by.

There are no streetlights here anyway, so if it was dark I'd need a torch to see my way to the phone box. (At night I can see one streetlight from my house, and it is so dim you'd be hard pushed to read by it).

You have a streetlight you can see from your house! You are spoilt, We did have one street lamp in our village, was outside PO, when that closed the street lamp was switched off.

Streetlights, Phone Boxes, Post Offices these are luxuries I can only dream about

Many round here now house defibrillators. I wonder how long they would power your ONT and router for ?

I've had a few months of limited travel but now I'm out and about again there do seem to be defibrillators in all kinds of places, which is good to see.

Meanwhile in the brave new world of elcheapo telcos, where "joined up thinking" is unheard of, the picture is rather less rosy, and yer man at the top of BT Retail finally admitted it a few months back aod announced the rollout of BT Digital Voice was being "paused". Binned might have been more appropriate.

http://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voic...

Some scenarios are entiirely foresseable (and have already happened pre BT Digital Voice etc) but I haven't seen them considered. Maybe I'm not looking at the right places.

Suppose, for example, landline service (be it VoIP or POTS) fails, for whatever reason, in a particular area. A charged mobile might be handy, in principle.

Now suppose also there is also a relatively major road/through route in the affected area - doesn't matter whether it's rural or urban, traffic congestion on the roads happens everywhere from time to time. When the traffic on the roads gets particularly congested, the cellphone networks get congested too, maybe to the point of uselessness, leaving many people unable to send or receive calls.or data. Then how much use is a "charged mobile" at home/office/wherever?

There are other possible reasons for congestion of the "mobile" networks, with the same net result - the network basically collapses under the load and is unusable as a "backup" for other services.

the network basically collapses under the load and is unusable as a "backup" for other services.

Perhaps the answer is to add Morse code to the national curriculum, and issue every home with an Aldis lamp?

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

Perhaps the answer is to add Morse code to the national curriculum

...
---
...

In reply to a post by c_j:

and yer man at the top of BT Retail finally admitted it a few months back aod announced the rollout of BT Digital Voice was being "paused". Binned might have been more appropriate.

No, "paused" is correct. Although BT own Openreach, BT Retail are only one of many ISPs using it. More importantly, there has been no change to the timetable for Openreach's withdrawal of WLR, which will affect BT Retail the same as everyone else.

WLR still goes stop-sell in September 2023, with final switch-off in December 2025.

In reply to a post by c_j:

Suppose, for example, landline service (be it VoIP or POTS) fails, for whatever reason, in a particular area. A charged mobile might be handy, in principle.

Now suppose also there is also a relatively major road/through route in the affected area - doesn't matter whether it's rural or urban, traffic congestion on the roads happens everywhere from time to time. When the traffic on the roads gets particularly congested, the cellphone networks get congested too, maybe to the point of uselessness, leaving many people unable to send or receive calls.or data. Then how much use is a "charged mobile" at home/office/wherever?

999 calls take priority on the network, so it's not an issue.

You can make up any scenarios you like, and I can make up ones which work the same with PSTN. What if a tree falls down on the line which carries my overhead PSTN cable? What if I depend on my local phonebox, but a lorry drives into it? Similar arguments could have been made for the removal of police boxes.

Unless you have *evidence* of the mobile network being insufficiently reliable to carry emergency calls - or more importantly, significantly less reliable than the PSTN for this purpose - then this is just FUD. And by evidence, I mean statistics provided by the emergency services themselves.

In reality, the fact that almost everyone carries a mobile phone these days means it's *quicker* to summon emergency help than it ever has been. (How quickly the services respond is a different issue, of course)

Technology moves on. More and more people don't have "landlines" any more, simply because they don't use or want them. And on the flip side, things like Apple Watches being able to make emergency calls via the satellite network are becoming a thing.

Unless you have *evidence* of the mobile network being insufficiently reliable to carry emergency calls - or more importantly, significantly less reliable than the PSTN for this purpose - then this is just FUD.

I do have experience of this. We had a 6+ hour power cut a couple of years ago. We had given up our land-line when we changed to (much faster) 4G broadband and VoIP. The cell tower UPS lasted about 40 minutes, after which we had no signal at all (not even emergency calls). Our neighbour had a bonfire in his field, and the wind unexpectedly became quite strong and the fire spread to a hedgerow and row of trees and was heading towards our house... Fortunately we eventually managed to contain it with a bucket brigade.
Had we still had PSTN then the power cut wouldn't have stopped us calling the fire brigade.

999 calls take priority on the network

I;m aware of that idea, it dates back to the days of GSM/PCN and such.

"so it's not an issue"

That;s a fine theory, but where's the *evidence"? You like evidence, right? So do I, after decasdes working on high availability and safety critical systems. Vendor "promises" (not even SLAs) are not evidence. Statistics from the emergency services can be a bit dubious too if big money is at stake.

Think Manchester Arena attack, Grenfelll Tower, London 7/7, etc. That kind of thing.. plenty of "it simply won't happen" scenarios that are too inconvenient to think about but happen anyway.

But definitely don't think UK "Emergency Services Network" next generation rollout replacing (but not actually upgrading) the existing Tetra/AIrwave. The transtition from Tetra/Airwve to ESN (BT and BT?EE, what could possibly go wrong?) was at one stage supposed to start in 2017 and be complete in 2019, last time I looekd it wasn't expected till 2026 see e.g.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/05/airwave_2020_...
or

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/airwave-replaceme...


"almost everyone carries a mobile phone these days means it's *quicker* to summon emergency help


That may the theory. The reality is that emergency services call centres frequently get overwhelmed by massive quantities of calls from mobiles all reporting the same i(or related) incidents, and new calls for potentially unrelated incidents go to the back of the queue.... unless you have *evidence* that says otherwise,

things like Apple Watches being able to make emergency calls via the satellite network are becoming a thing.

Jam tomorrow?
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/30/23328650/apple-wa...


Since 2018, Europe has had a vehicle-oriented equivalent of the US's e911 setup.which goes back to last century.

Since April 2018, most cars and vans have been fitted with an emergency call system, known as eCall. This built-in safety feature is automatically activated in the event of an incident when the airbags are deployed.

This can also be manually activated by the driver or passenger by pressing a button – this button is known as eCall SOS.

Pheasant

Any answer on the Eaton 3S Mini run?

Just doing a clean run this afternoon. Will update. 😀

Ok so it ran for 2 hrs:35 mins near enough on the Eaton

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 11-Oct-22 16:37:59)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

Perhaps the answer is to add Morse code to the national curriculum

...
---
...

-.-. --- -- . / --.- ..- .. -.-. -.- / -- -.-- / .... --- ..- ... . / .. ... / --- -. / ..-. .. .-. .

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

-.-. --- -- . / --.- ..- .. -.-. -.- / -- -.-- / .... --- ..- ... . / .. ... / --- -. / ..-. .. .-. .

- .... .-. --- .-- / ... --- -- . / .--. . .-. - --- .-.. / --- -. --..-- / .-- . / -.-. .- -. / - .... . -. / ... . . / .-- .... . .-. . / -.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / -.-.--

In reply to a post by dect:

Streetlights, Phone Boxes, Post Offices these are luxuries I can only dream about

We have no streetlamps, nor does the next nearest village, post offices where shut in our village and the surrounding three villages, this lead to the shops they where in also closing, we do have a 'phone box', it doesn't contain a phone, they where going to remove it, but as we are in a conservation area it has to stay so instead it contains a defibrillator, well that helps if you've ran down the road and collapsed outside phone box 😊
I would note that as a toddler in the late 50's our family home had no electricity, water or bathroom, lighting was by oil lamp and water came from pump at end of row, or stand pipe outside landlords house, but the doctor lived just a hundred yards away so was probably quicker to get than an ambulance nowadays.

Had we still had PSTN then the power cut wouldn't have stopped us calling the fire brigade

Thank you. And there's no particular hardware or software reason why that same legacy-PSTN "quality of service" couldn't still be delivered cost effectively for critical services using "modern" network technologies, but it would need to be properly acknowledged funded planned designed implemented and maintained. Not left to marketing drones, bean counters and IT crowd help desk people. That way lies trouble. Possibly serious trouble.

Railways around Europe are using something called GSM-R, for example, for potentially critical functions. Tried, tested, proven in service, and seemingly fit for purpose:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/gs...
and inevitably also in Wikipedia under GSM-R.]

Cars nowadays are using CANbus for device connectivity. It's cheap to wire in and makes it simple for car manufacturers to charge extra for enabling already-present functionality (e.g. BMW's Connected Drive proram includes "pay per month" heated seats [1] ???). Worse, security against deliberate abuse wasn't really planned in. Oh well.

In general faith-based engineering ("plug and pray"?) seems to be all too common these days. A working reliable "bombproof" (maybe literally) telephone system isn't a luxury, and nor is a reliable electricity supply for ordinary day to day stuff. And yet....


[1] https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gb

In reply to a post by c_j:

Railways around Europe are using something called GSM-R, for example, for potentially critical functions. Tried, tested, proven in service, and seemingly fit for purpose:

Possibly 99.9% fit for purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a453eamgwQ at 1 hour, 16 minutes and 40 seconds into the video.

In reply to a post by c_j:

Railways around Europe are using something called GSM-R, for example, for potentially critical functions. Tried, tested, proven in service, and seemingly fit for purpose:

Correct comments about GSM-R which is a very effective railway-centric system but irrelevant to a consumer market solution. GSM-R uses mobile telephone technology relying on masts with adequate power back-up at strategic intervals along the railway lines to support the service. I may be wrong but my understanding is that it is mission-critical technology so has its own dedicated hardware rather than any public mobile telephone masts. Whether that understanding is correct or not, in our area where mobile reception is not universal the railway got planning permission and built a new mast beside the railway line just for GSM-R and which does not have any consumer based services piggy-backing onto the mast.

If you are proposing that the consumer market should replicate the security of connection offered by GSM-R then this would require a huge investment in arranging long-life power supplies to existing masts and then an even bigger investment in coverage for the sparsely populated areas that do not currently have mobile signals.

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

Unless you have *evidence* of the mobile network being insufficiently reliable to carry emergency calls - or more importantly, significantly less reliable than the PSTN for this purpose - then this is just FUD.

I do have experience of this. We had a 6+ hour power cut a couple of years ago. We had given up our land-line when we changed to (much faster) 4G broadband and VoIP. The cell tower UPS lasted about 40 minutes, after which we had no signal at all (not even emergency calls). Our neighbour had a bonfire in his field, and the wind unexpectedly became quite strong and the fire spread to a hedgerow and row of trees and was heading towards our house... Fortunately we eventually managed to contain it with a bucket brigade.
Had we still had PSTN then the power cut wouldn't have stopped us calling the fire brigade.

I'm not disputing that individual events like this do occur. But individual anecdotes do not make an overall case for action or inaction.

There are doubtless anecdotes the other way round, where the PSTN had failed (e.g. due to overhead lines being down), and having a mobile would have saved the day.

There's never going to be 100% availability of emergency connections, unless we all have direct underground lines to the local police station or fire station.

Really, I'm not sure what's being argued here. The analogue PSTN *is* going, whether you like it or not - complaining about it on this forum won't make the slightest difference.

You could complain to your MP if you like, but that's unlikely to make a difference either: these plans have been in place for years, and all accepted by the government / OFCOM. If the government wanted to keep the analogue PSTN then they could, but it will cost billions, and they will have to pay for it; and it will just retain us in a backward position compared to the rest of the world.

In practice, FTTP is *more* reliable than copper overall. That leaves the relatively minor issue of backup power: if you are in an area with poor mobile coverage and frequent power cuts, *and* you are vulnerable, then maybe having a larger UPS would give you some peace of mind. (Or even in a cluster of houses, at least one person having a UPS). Vulnerable people are already entitled to a small UPS (1 hour backup).

Are Openreach going to keep local telephone exchanges running, purely to handle the very rare case of emergency calls during extended power cuts? Definitely not.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Are Openreach going to keep local telephone exchanges running, purely to handle the very rare case of emergency calls during extended power cuts? Definitely not.

This ^^

It's going to be much cheaper in the long run to provide backup solutions to the rural and vunerable than it is to keep the PSTN network maintained.

The consultations aren't even discussing the possibility of retaining PSTN.
It's going in 2025 whatever happens.
Arguing that it shouldn't be going is a wasted exercise as that ship sailed a long time ago.

Those who feel they are being disadvantaged by this should be arguing for better backup power in the home, better mobile coverage via things like the SRN, better backup power on the mobile network or even satellite phones for the most vulnerable.

Openreach haven't altered, paused or slowed down their plans.
It was only BT who paused some of their Digital Voice rollout, and only in some circumstances.
BT appear to have resumed the rollout with only the vunerable being excluded for now.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

or even satellite phones for the most vulnerable.

Elon Musk is upgrading Starlink so that unmodified existing mobile phones can communicate through satellite.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

or even satellite phones for the most vulnerable.

Elon Musk is upgrading Starlink so that unmodified existing mobile phones can communicate through satellite.

All part of his master plan for world domination, mwuhahahaha (evil genius laugh)

@john83 and @candlerb

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that PSTN should remain - however don't let the facts get in the way of throwing mud at people who don't take the same view as yourselves.

The whole argument is that the advance of technology brought a pretty much 24/7 ability to contact the emergency services to anyone with a telephone. This was a significant improvement in the communication capabilities for many in rural areas. The advance of technology part 2 is now taking away that capability so those who will be endangered by this further advance are asking that some more viable solution be provided by those who wish to take away the capability beyond the current metropolitan centred solution proposed by OfCOM of a battery back-up lasting an hour. The average power cut in this country may only last an hour as OfCOM's statistics suggest but that average brings no comfort to those in rural communities who see a number of power cuts each year lasting several hours.

Edited by GonePostal (Wed 12-Oct-22 15:53:24)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

or even satellite phones for the most vulnerable.

Elon Musk is upgrading Starlink so that unmodified existing mobile phones can communicate through satellite.

All part of his master plan for world domination, mwuhahahaha (evil genius laugh)

He may not get it all his own way though…

https://uk.pcmag.com/networking/142687/iphone-14-sat...

How long is a piece of string…but in your opinion what sort of autonomous operation is the bare ‘minimum’.

Second question do you think this should be telco / ISP / govt funded or full /part funded by the user of the service?

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

@john83 and @candlerb

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that PSTN should remain - however don't let the facts get in the way of throwing mud at people who don't take the same view as yourselves.

The whole argument is that the advance of technology brought a pretty much 24/7 ability to contact the emergency services to anyone with a telephone. This was a significant improvement in the communication capabilities for many in rural areas. The advance of technology part 2 is now taking away that capability so those who will be endangered by this further advance are asking that some more viable solution be provided by those who wish to take away the capability beyond the current metropolitan centred solution proposed by OfCOM of a battery back-up lasting an hour. The average power cut in this country may only last an hour as OfCOM's statistics suggest but that average brings no comfort to those in rural communities who see a number of power cuts each year lasting several hours.

It is a very well made point. I don't think anyone has a problem with replacing old analogue stuff at the end of its life and embracing something digital, however that replacement most people will expect to be better in every way, but what we are getting is just a simulated landline that loses one of its core strengths, resilience. Even ignoring power cuts VoIP is still less reliable. I expect many will not realise when their Internet goes down that they lose their simulated landline as well, although they will soon learn the hard way when it first happens and they call their broadband support number. If you have no mobile phone coverage, how do you notify the ISP your broadband is down?

With talks of implementing 3 hour rolling power cuts should the need arise this winter, then clearly an hour of up time isn't enough. Mobile phone masts typically don't stay up for long if at all in a power cut, for good reason, it is expensive and the mobile phone companies and authorities told customers not to rely on a mobile phone in an emergency and to fall back to a landline, now Openreach/OFCOM are saying fall back to a mobile in some sort of power cut situation or emergency.

The other issue we have is capacity. VoIP providers will only have enough capacity for the tiny fraction of customers that use VoIP on a regular basis, they will not have extra capacity to cover a significant number of their customer base all deciding to use the phone at the same time, which might happen in some sort of national emergency. I've written before how immediately after the lock down announcement I could not make any calls on my mobile, the network was too busy, so I resulted to a copper landline to landline call which went straight through. The more point to point aspect of the old analogue telephone network by definition means it has a large capacity, at least for connecting calls in the local area.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

How long is a piece of string…but in your opinion what sort of autonomous operation is the bare ‘minimum’.

Second question do you think this should be telco / ISP / govt funded or full /part funded by the user of the service?

1) It's like any negotiation. My starting point is that I want what I've got now. OfCOM's starting point is that you can't have that, you can have an hour. That is not viable for a number of consumers who have voiced their complaints. When there is a better offer we can have another conversation.

2) What should be telco // ISP/ govt funded or full / part funded by the users? I don't see the benefits of the PSTN cessation going to anywhere but the shareholders of the private companies involved. Why should those shareholders be able to have an unearned benefit due to worsening the service in a potentially safety-critical money-saving exercise?

You could have what you have now…but it may require a diesel generator to be parked in the driveway (to match the circa. 3 days autonomous operation at the exchange). It’s simply not realistic. I don’t think there’s necessarily going to be a better “offer” either. However if there are rolling 3-hour long black outs this winter across vast swathes of the country, affecting millions AND this also results in widespread pandemonium / chaos on the telecommunications network, it may refocus some minds. But that’s not a certainty right now.

I asked the second question, because in my experience no one wants to pay for a backup solution unless they feel there is tangible benefit or some certainty it will get “pay back”. More so as extending the autonomous operation time drives up the costs. If Ofcom mandate a longer autonomous operation time, and this extra cost fell to industry then they’re going to recoup that by increasing charges to customers. Openreach are “out” of the business of providing voice come 2025. So somebody else’s will need to pick up the tab.

Yet we aren’t alone in this, nor are we the first country the world to do this. The entire world is retiring PSTN technology and many countries have competed their transitions to VoIP many years ago. We should look at their lessons learnt.

Building a more resilient power grid (or properly bolstering and improving what is there) would doubtless. be the best long term solution - if we’re trying to treat the cause of major power outages.

In reply to a post by E300:

I expect many will not realise when their Internet goes down that they lose their simulated landline as well, although they will soon learn the hard way when it first happens and they call their broadband support number. If you have no mobile phone coverage, how do you notify the ISP your broadband is down?

Whilst I agree with much of your argument, we have both copper for phone and FTTP for internet, the last two times I contacted my provider was one because the phone line was cut off, and two (when it was reconnected) to complain that the call quality was so poor it was sometimes hard to impossible to understand what was being said, on another thread in past I've said about having to drive couple of miles to get signal (before we had wifi calling or VoIP) to speak to doctor and hospital.
If gf phones me at home she uses mobile number (because I have wifi calling), or VoIP, both of these have proved to be much more reliable than the copper phone line. All I need to do now is sort out a UPS.
p.s. missed an important bit out.
When your line has internet, as phones will in effect be, then ISP can easily see a fault, it seems when it's purely a phone line as now, they can't easily see a problem.

Edited by burble (Wed 12-Oct-22 17:52:38)

In reply to a post by burble:

Whilst I agree with much of your argument, we have both copper for phone and FTTP for internet, the last two times I contacted my provider was one because the phone line was cut off, and two (when it was reconnected) to complain that the call quality was so poor it was sometimes hard to impossible to understand what was being said, on another thread in past I've said about having to drive couple of miles to get signal (before we had wifi calling or VoIP) to speak to doctor and hospital.
If gf phones me at home she uses mobile number (because I have wifi calling), or VoIP, both of these have proved to be much more reliable than the copper phone line. All I need to do now is sort out a UPS.
p.s. missed an important bit out.
When your line has internet, as phones will in effect be, then ISP can easily see a fault, it seems when it's purely a phone line as now, they can't easily see a problem.

Imagine if you didn't have FTTP as an option, then your Internet would be very unreliable over that copper wire. At least you would have a chance of making an analogue call even if the quality was poor or crackly, but next to no chance if your Internet can't remain connected for more than few minutes and you were using VoIP.

In your case your copper land line has a fault, that isn't typical for most people.

In reply to a post by E300:

Imagine if you didn't have FTTP as an option, then your Internet would be very unreliable over that copper wire. At least you would have a chance of making an analogue call even if the quality was poor or crackly, but next to no chance if your Internet can't remain connected for more than few minutes and you were using VoIP.

In your case your copper land line has a fault, that isn't typical for most people.

That's my point, the line has been a problem for years with intermittent faults every year, when it had FTTC the ISP could see when problems arose and after prompting from me would send out a engineer. Now it is phone only intermittent faults are seemingly not so obvious to provider and they keep telling me 'nothing is wrong'. I'm guessing that for those that only want a phone, then with a 'router' permanently connected the 'phone company' will have logs showing problems.
I still agree that more should be done to ensure some sort of service during power cuts if the customer needs it, but I can see if it was offered as an option to all even those who don't need it will be asking for UPS.

In reply to a post by E300:

the mobile phone companies and authorities told customers not to rely on a mobile phone in an emergency and to fall back to a landline,

I don't remember that, and my first mobile phone was 1994. In fact contacting the emergency services in rented accomodation without a landline was why I bought it, and checked with the supplier (Orange) carefully. I chose that supplier because at the time the competition you dealt with through shady resellers whom had no actual link to the network provision.

The other issue we have is capacity. VoIP providers will only have enough capacity for the tiny fraction of customers that use VoIP on a regular basis, they will not have extra capacity to cover a significant number of their customer base all deciding to use the phone at the same time, which might happen in some sort of national emergency.

Don't confuse the third party VoIP services talked about on thinkbroadband with the sort of closed (not-internet) VoIP service run by the experienced telcos of BT and others and baked into their specific hardware.

I've written before how immediately after the lock down announcement I could not make any calls on my mobile, the network was too busy, so I resulted to a copper landline to landline call which went straight through. The more point to point aspect of the old analogue telephone network by definition means it has a large capacity, at least for connecting calls in the local area.

Not quite right - the point to point ends at the start of the exchange where the copper landline becomes a data connection and is VoIP routed across trunk networks. Not the public internet, but still using the IP protocol, to the destination exchange.

All the worry is around where the electricity is provided, and the end of the 50v AC on the copper pair. That's really the question.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 12-Oct-22 19:50:03)

The Eaton 3S Mini is currently £39 on Prime Early Access Sale.

I take it from the specs there is a couple of 18650's in side?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I’m trying out one of these 12v plug packs with Lithium batteries inside, just to see what sort of realistic backup they provide. The voltage and barrel connector is compatible with latest Zyxel 4/5G modem from Three as well as all the ONTs as provided by Openreach.

https://www.powerinspired.com/product-range/ipower-d...

Not too bad for £47 delivered.

Then there is a higher capacity Eaton 3S Mini DC ups that is available from Amazon for the same outlay. It has the advantage of variable DC voltage outputs and a range of barrel tips/sizes. I’ve tried this one out on Openreach ONTs and it will easily stand them up for 5 hours or more.

I haven't cracked it open, but I'd say so.

This one did OK holding up a Zyxel NR5103E 5G router for over 2.5 hours.

So OFCOM belatedly realised there is a problem, even though the guidance for network providers as been in operation since 2018.

Network providers should have been providing a battery backup system.

Is it going to take someone dying before it's realised that this is a serious situation?

In reply to a post by bowdon:

Is it going to take someone dying before it's realised that this is a serious situation?

That's how improvements to other parts of our national infrastructure are managed e.g. the road network (at least I believe it's a national strategy, certainly is in Derbyshire).

In reply to a post by iannewson:

The Eaton 3S Mini is currently £39 on Prime Early Access Sale.

I take it from the specs there is a couple of 18650's in side?

I got a cracking deal on a UPS a few months ago £30 for a APC 700VA with USB cable last time I had a power cut it was still going the power cut was 40 mins. Except there was no point as after 2 mins on battary I set it so my NAS would go off. so could not do anything. Virgin Media's network would just go offline so I logged a fault with support as it happend and they told me there is an area fault, the only reason I did was as the network team told me my Node is on a UPS, either they lied or it was broken, so I got them to send an engineer to the area who realised there was a powercut and said you have no power so how do you know it's offline, I was like I have a UPS and they basically said to me that theres no point as thier core network in the area isn't on backups.

I obviosuly get its not OR but many networks will be like this.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I haven't cracked it open, but I'd say so.

This one did OK holding up a Zyxel NR5103E 5G router for over 2.5 hours.

You've no idea how reassuring that is to all of the rural residents who will only have 9.5 hours left to worry.

No worries. We can always bootstrap 4 together for ya 😉

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

No worries. We can always bootstrap 4 together for ya 😉

That sort of answer is fairly typical on those who are in denial about the problem.

Big money has decided that they can benefit their shareholders by taking away a safety-critical operation which has been available to users of the landline system for over 100 years. If you can't either produce a valid argument to back up why this application of new technology in order to worsen the service old technology provided is a viable way forward or come up with a valid solution to solve the problem then you are just wasting the time of those trying to move the debate forward.

I'm not here to throw stones about who is right and wrong in this debate as I really don't care either way. What I would say is that its already a done deal so solutions on how to protect yourself if the power goes down is an obvious route to go down.

In reply to a post by dect:

I'm not here to throw stones about who is right and wrong in this debate as I really don't care either way. What I would say is that its already a done deal so solutions on how to protect yourself if the power goes down is an obvious route to go down.

I think that cops out from the question. The cessation of the landline service may indeed be a done deal but only because it was pushed through by metropolitan operators before the people most affected (mainly in rural areas) caught up with the debate. The question now is whether those taking the capability away should put in adequate protection for those customers who have had a safety-critical service for all of their lifetimes or whether those bystanders in the big-money argument should have to make their own arrangements at a cost which many will not be able to afford while those taking the capability and safety of the cannon-fodder away increase their profitability.

Edited by GonePostal (Thu 13-Oct-22 23:36:15)

Valid argument…I’m not out to argue with you.

I’m checking out practical solutions. My reply about uptime of that Eaton mini UPS was in reply about someone an asking a genuine question about this unit.

But you seem to have appear to have this axe to grind. So carry on.

It's not just power cut that is a concern for this DV service, but also a problem for the elderly and vulnerable people who are not technologically well advanced.

For example currently an elderly person can use telephone service without subscribing to broadband. But with Digital Voice they are obliged to take DV+broadband. They then have to know how to set this up by either connecting the traditional handset to the router or use the Digital Voice Alexa Phone that needs registering with the router by pressing the WPS button.

If someone isn't too technically well equipped or has alzheimer's/dementia they are in big trouble. Most of us have our own mobile phone handsets as well so if the connection or power cut goes down then we have a mobile phone.

There's also another problem that can potentially arise like in the case of faulty broadband router, which will again paralyze the telephone service until the router is replaced.

There's a serious risk where criminals can potentially take advantage if they are aware of an area that has a power cut or broadband service being down, they can target those vulnerable people and mug them from their homes.

This poses an even bigger risk for rural areas with individual houses rather than flats. There's no one to turn for help, no neighbours, etc.

At least with traditional telephone lines if power gets cut the telephone line continues to operate as normal.

The only way DV can permanently replace traditional phones is to include a battery back up with the router or ONT otherwise people's lives will be put at risk.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

For example currently an elderly person can use telephone service without subscribing to broadband. But with Digital Voice they are obliged to take DV+broadband. They then have to know how to set this up by either connecting the traditional handset to the router or use the Digital Voice Alexa Phone that needs registering with the router by pressing the WPS button.

From a which.co.uk article dated 7th October 2022:

"What if I don't have or want a broadband connection?

Those who currently only have a landline won't be forced to pay for broadband services that they don't want or need. Their digital phone service will work using a special dedicated broadband connection and shouldn't cost any more than what they pay now. BT has made a specific commitment to telecoms regulator Ofcom that its customers will pay the same amount, and Virgin Media says its voice-only customers will get the hub necessary for its digital phone services at no additional cost."

What is this "special dedicated broadband connection," perhaps not a router as such?

It’s called SOTAP.

You did ask a while ago about what proposals I had to move things forward. Having had time to mull over the question perhaps there is a way forward that would meet most of the objections from both sides of the discussion.

While the current system continues to work (subject to adequate maintenance of the BT back-up equipment) 24/7 even when there is a power cut there does seem the opportunity to scale back from that while still giving the emergency systems run by government and local councils time to click into action.

I am suggesting that it should be mandatory for there to be 24 hours of connectivity when there is a power outage. For those in areas with mobile phone signals this can be maintained by providing adequate back-up batteries for each mast. For those in areas without mobile signals then users of the service should be provided with power back-up to maintain router operability for 24 hours and perhaps the supply of a corded traditional phone to connect via the router.

Obviously more expensive than the current proposals but perhaps a way forward to keep everyone in the country in contact while other contingency plans are brought into action.

So what do you suggest? calling in extinction rebellion and blockading the street until the telecom's companies change their minds for those wanting to retain their existing service?

I am rural (not even in a small village), I am a pensioner, I have my own solution in place for power cuts and didn't need to wait for a spoon-fed solution.

I am rural (not even in a small village), I am a pensioner, I have my own solution in place for power cuts and didn't need to wait for a spoon-fed solution.

You also have an interest in broadband and technology and presumably enough funds for the solution (although you may have had to prioritise it over other things - don't know your financial situation and nor am I asking for it). You are likely an outlier - certainly few of the people I know that are pensioners have much interest in technology, even my brother to be honest doesn't and would ask me if he needed something to do with broadband or landline phone.

Power cuts are bigger than just a loss of power to an ONT and router.

People should in this day and age be prepared for various outcomes, be it some UAT milk in the bottom of their cupboard in case they are unable to get out because of snow, snow scoop to clear their foot path, blankets in the boot of their car in case they get stuck on a motorway are just a few examples.

How many people clear their pavement outside their houses if it snows? it use to be the case (or may still be the case) in Germany that it was expected of every household to do it and you could get fined.

Not everything is linked to technology.

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Oct-22 08:53:13)

In reply to a post by dect:

How many people clear their pavement outside their houses if it snows? it use to be the case (or may still be the case) in Germany that it was expected of every household to do it and you could get fined.

Still the case - why I have an electric snowblower (from living in Germany and being too tight to pay for Winterdienst - which was the price of a small snowblower annually)

In reply to a post by dect:

So what do you suggest? calling in extinction rebellion and blockading the street until the telecom's companies change their minds for those wanting to retain their existing service?

I am rural (not even in a small village), I am a pensioner, I have my own solution in place for power cuts and didn't need to wait for a spoon-fed solution.

We had a 3 day power cut in Suffolk during Arwen last winter. No amount of UPS was going to stand that up. FTTP back to Ipswich exchange continued to work. Actually local masts of the A12 still worked. We are fed from a different (but vulnerable) 11 kV line that often get knocked out. I have a 66 kV line that crosses one side of the property that is the one of two such legs feeding to Felixtowe and port etc. We regularly get manned on the ground inspections from UKPN and via chopper. Still doesn’t help the fact that our power supply is vulnerable.

I have had permanent wired in diesel standby generation for over 10 years and have enough spare capacity to drop a line to my near neighbours. But they were happy with a noisy open petrol set.

My adage is god helps those that help themselves. If you choose to live in the sticks, get busy and get prepared.

In reply to a post by dect:

Power cuts are bigger than just a loss of power to an ONT and router.

People should in this day and age be prepared for various outcomes, be it some UAT milk in the bottom of their cupboard in case they are unable to get out because of snow, snow scoop to clear their foot path, blankets in the boot of their car in case they get stuck on a motorway are just a few examples.

How many people clear their pavement outside their houses if it snows? it use to be the case (or may still be the case) in Germany that it was expected of every household to do it and you could get fined.

Not everything is linked to technology.

Most elderly people already have things like tins and UHT milk, but there is big gulf between UHT milk to knowing about what is happening in the telecoms industry and how VoIP works!

So do you expect a 87 year old pensioner to be ordering backup generators then dragging that out the garage and filling it with fuel and back feeding their house so they can have power in a power cut to cover the "various outcomes", and do they do that before or after they've shoveled snow off the pavement?

Sometimes such selfish rubbish is written on these forums.

In reply to a post by longedge:

In reply to a post by bowdon:

Is it going to take someone dying before it's realised that this is a serious situation?

That's how improvements to other parts of our national infrastructure are managed e.g. the road network (at least I believe it's a national strategy, certainly is in Derbyshire).

Would that be a so called Smart motorway?

GonePostal

Cessation of the PSTN is a done deal due to
1. Equipment was installed prior to 1996 and is no longer repairable cost effectively (Chip are wearing out, Cards are physically starting to fall apart, runners are breaking, etc)
2. OFCOM mandate BTs (ORs) voice price charges on cost recovery for an efficient operator which they decided many years ago was a cheap VOIP network, customers have been benefiting from this for 15+ years. Thus there has been no way to cost in a like for like modernisation since circa 2006. BT tried with MSANs and 21CN but the cost would have broken the company financially so they have been forced to move to a pure VOIP solution on the back of BB. The voice solution is the same as that for 4/5g mobile just delivered over BB rather than radio.

All the downstrean issues come down to the resilience of the power supply Both in the customers premises/pocket and the network delivery point (OLT, FTTC cab, ADSL rack, Mobile Mast & mobile backhaul, Virgin street furniture).

I believe operators should be mandated to provide backup power to the Network delivery points for urban 4 hours / rural 8 hours. / ultra rural 24 hours but can restrict service per connected endpoint to 0.5Mb during this time.

I would also suggest that operators have to make available at cost to vulnerable customers the equivalent UPS for Urban and Rural scenarios. Again allowing them to restrict bandwidth availability to 0.5Mb (Up/Down) from the router (maybe turn wifi off as well). Customers that override these settings would get less UPS time protection.

These would balance Operators costs against access to emergency services. (We just wouldn't be able to stream video to a lapton during a power cut!)

I was thinking in particular about the amount of funding that is made available for remedial work at identified accident black spots. Sliding scale from deaths downwards to determine how much can be spent.

'Smart' motorways would be another example though.

In reply to a post by E300:

Sometimes such selfish rubbish is written on these forums.

Because some people don't wait to be spoon-fed solutions doesn't make them selfish it makes them better organised. Those 87 years old pensioners you speak of haven't always been 87 years old and power outages have been around for as long as I can remember. As I said I am a pensioner and have to do nothing physical to switch to backup power, a simple MTS next to my fuse box and a push of a button to get the generator going, but if you want you can sit there with a candle if that works for you.

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Oct-22 11:27:33)

You have to realise you are an outlier case and not representative of the general position of pensioners. You are clearly an "enthusiast" - most people are not.

In reply to a post by ian72:

You are clearly an "enthusiast" - most people are not.

I would say I am "organised" and have been throughout my life, but I take your point that most people aren't and thats a shame.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s called SOTAP.

Thanks, I'll look into what that might be It will certainly be relevant to the future needs of my elderly aunt who is dependent upon having a working "landline" phone 24/7.

In reply to a post by dect:

Because some people don't wait to be spoon-fed solutions doesn't make them selfish it makes them better organised. Those 87 years old pensioners you speak of haven't always been 87 years old and power outages have been around for as long as I can remember. As I said I am a pensioner and have to do nothing physical to switch to backup power, a simple MTS next to my fuse box and a push of a button to get the generator going, but if you want you can sit there with a candle if that works for you.

I think the issue of not planning ahead or remembering situations from the past to help us in the future isn't only an older persons issue. Most of the young people in to technology have no idea of what we had to do in the 1980's and 90's era, never mind anything further back than that.

Most of todays generation don't even think that technology can go wrong so they don't plan for unforseen circumstances. It's like this in many non-technical areas too.

I suspect this is why OFCOM didn't forsee this situation happening too.

An ADSL line without dial tone … running a VOIP service.

The first two letters stand for Single Order … unsure of the rest

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s called SOTAP.

Thanks, I'll look into what that might be It will certainly be relevant to the future needs of my elderly aunt who is dependent upon having a working "landline" phone 24/7.

No worries. Starter for ten here:

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/04/openre...

But my aunt does not have broadband, i.e. xDSL, she only has a BT retail voice service on her current PSTN line. I guess this transitional solution will perhaps be relevant when PSTN locally expires and she is still connecting via a NTE5 to the copper pairs?

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 14-Oct-22 16:09:58)

Her voice provider will offer service via SOTAP, or SOGEA.

Perhaps that involves a "plug and play" device which has an accompanying backup battery source for the vulnerable?

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 14-Oct-22 17:06:14)

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Perhaps that involves a "plug and play" device which has an accompanying backup battery source for the vulnerable?

It will still be a modem and router as an internet connection is needed to allow VoIP/Digital Voice to work. What's different is that the speed profile will probably be low e.g around 0.5meg to allow it to work and also the ability to browse websites could be limited or even disabled. If communication providers are just going to reuse their own routers for phone only customers then they may also be configured for WiFi to be disabled ect...

More useful resources can be found at https://landlinesgo.digital/resources/

Edited by cymru123 (Fri 14-Oct-22 17:23:42)

If a modem/router comes already configured that would be OK for my aunt for a voice only service otherwise she would need some technical help.

Apart from the difficulties a person such as my aunt might face perhaps somebody like myself who has SMPF (TTB ADSL and a BTw landline) there could be problems with this transitional solution...

Thanks for the link to https://landlinesgo.digital/resources/ I will have a look at that.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Apart from the difficulties a person such as my aunt might face perhaps somebody like myself who has SMPF (TTB ADSL and a BTw landline) there could be problems with this transitional solution...

I read that this is the reason this sort of sharing has been unusual for a few years now - either your phone provider, OR your broadband provider will have to become the service provider for both services on the copper pair. Unless you want two copper pairs

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Apart from the difficulties a person such as my aunt might face perhaps somebody like myself who has SMPF (TTB ADSL and a BTw landline) there could be problems with this transitional solution...

That kind of sharing is being withdrawn too where you have 2 provders sharing the local network e.g one provider for broadband and another for voice over the same path.

As per https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-al...

The following Openreach products will therefore be withdrawn as part of WLR withdrawal:

WLR3 analogue
WLR3 ISDN2
WLR3 ISDN30
LLU SMPF
SLU SMPF
Narrowband Line Share
Classic

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Apart from the difficulties a person such as my aunt might face perhaps somebody like myself who has SMPF (TTB ADSL and a BTw landline) there could be problems with this transitional solution...

I read that this is the reason this sort of sharing has been unusual for a few years now - either your phone provider, OR your broadband provider will have to become the service provider for both services on the copper pair. Unless you want two copper pairs

It appears for me the most likely scenario in the short term will be to go for broadband only FTTP (which is available) and retain the PSTN analogue line for BTw voice, i.e. cease the TTB ADSL on the line. Until possible issues with power cuts etc. are resolved the good old copper pairs for analogue voice are good enough for me for a while

In reply to a post by 4M2:

It appears for me the most likely scenario in the short term will be to go for broadband only FTTP (which is available) and retain the PSTN analogue line for BTw voice, i.e. cease the TTB ADSL on the line. Until possible issues with power cuts etc. are resolved the good old copper pairs for analogue voice are good enough for me for a while

FYI from September 2023, there's a nationwide stop sell that comes into force so providers won't be able to offer you a traditional voice service like you have today. They will only be able to offer you no voice service or their own VoIP/Digital Voice services.

Also based on where you are if you're in a Full Fibre exchange area where there is a copper product stop sell https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-al... You will only be able to move to a Full Fibre service and not be able to keep the copper line as it will be ceased.

4M2
Analogue voice will be turned off by 2025. So you will have to move to something else within 3 years.

In reply to a post by dect:

So what do you suggest?

I suggest you get out and smell the coffee. Your particular mindset and preparations are in no way applicable to nearly all of the population. If you want to live safe and secure in your little castle while people around you who do not have your mindset or resources are perhaps facing life-critical situations then I do hope your conscience is as robust as your planning.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

GonePostal

Cessation of the PSTN is a done deal . . .

Sorry I didn't make it clear in my post that there will be no going back from the PSTN cessation. My suggestions were looking at how we might mitigate the effects of power outages on the less metropolitan parts of the country now that it has been decided to benefit the shareholders of the private telecoms companies while putting a proportion of the population in greater danger than they are now.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by E300:

Sometimes such selfish rubbish is written on these forums.

Because some people don't wait to be spoon-fed solutions doesn't make them selfish it makes them better organised. Those 87 years old pensioners you speak of haven't always been 87 years old and power outages have been around for as long as I can remember.

I think that you are trying so hard to push your case that you are missing the obvious. Power cuts in previous years did not mean the loss of communication capability.

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 14-Oct-22 23:40:03)

Maybe we are not aware of the real story. The Times on Friday 14th. October included an article headed "Broadband blackouts could leave people unable to make 999 calls" (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/power-cuts-could-... for those who can get past the pay-wall).

This was looking at a number of the issues which have been raised here. The printed article includes:

"A spokeswoman for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, which deals with the telecoms industry, said: “Protecting our vital mobile and broadband infrastructure is a top priority. Providers are required by law to ensure their services remain available even in the unlikely event of a power outage.”"

The online version includes a "Behind the story" briefing at the end which states:

"The regulator Ofcom says that companies must take measures to ensure people can ring the emergency services, no matter what. It is currently monitoring whether firms are complying with this requirement."

How have we got is all so wrong?

Edited by GonePostal (Sat 15-Oct-22 00:41:24)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

If you want to live safe and secure in your little castle

That reminds me, I better find some beef eaters to help finish off the Moet 😎

Verve Clicquot pleazzzzzze!

But preferably a decent Margaux.

Edited by pluralist (Sat 15-Oct-22 11:01:23)

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

If you want to live safe and secure in your little castle

That reminds me, I better find some beef eaters to help finish off the Moet 😎

Don’t let the staff drink on duty, they lose so much respect for one if they do.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

4M2
Analogue voice will be turned off by 2025. So you will have to move to something else within 3 years.

I certainly approve of the move over to full fibre replacing xDSL for broadband (even though it would currently, for example, add approx £10 per month to my bill even for a 40/10 service on an annual contract.) However I must admit that I had given little thought to what would happen regarding the PSTN landline in the future.

However recently I did open a ticket regarding FTTP etc. with my current supplier (uno) who provide me with both ADSL and PSTN. This was because I discovered that FTTP is now available at my address and uno did confirm that analogue voice would be turned off by 2025. When analogue voice will be turned off in my area appears to be unknown at this stage but I guess it could be less than 3 years away.

Keeping PSTN with uno at the moment is an option since the landland is WLR and the ADSL TailkTalk Business (SMPF) and it would be a simple matter to cease the ADSL from the line and perhaps take discounted BTw FTTP with another supplier such as Aquiss.

Hopefully uno will give me notice of when the analogue voice service will be terminated and then I can make a final decision regarding voice and broadband provision.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

For example currently an elderly person can use telephone service without subscribing to broadband. But with Digital Voice they are obliged to take DV+broadband. They then have to know how to set this up by either connecting the traditional handset to the router or use the Digital Voice Alexa Phone that needs registering with the router by pressing the WPS button.

From a which.co.uk article dated 7th October 2022:

"What if I don't have or want a broadband connection?

Those who currently only have a landline won't be forced to pay for broadband services that they don't want or need. Their digital phone service will work using a special dedicated broadband connection and shouldn't cost any more than what they pay now. BT has made a specific commitment to telecoms regulator Ofcom that its customers will pay the same amount, and Virgin Media says its voice-only customers will get the hub necessary for its digital phone services at no additional cost."

What is this "special dedicated broadband connection," perhaps not a router as such?

So basically, they are exempt from paying extra despite receiving a special dedicated broadband connection that is still broadband being received!

I wonder how that works out or makes much sense? Unless they are connecting this telephone to a new device that's still like a router but isn't a router to connect to computers but only reserved for the telephone service?

Still, those problems aren't eliminated. The elderly still need to set it up and if the connection goes down the telephone service once again stops working leaving them vulnerable in need of an emergency at that particular moment.

Now of-course no doubt it would be some bad luck to need to call an emergency service just as your service is also down, but such rarities can and will probably still occur. The population is big and the incidents will be high in number so there's bound to be needs of calling emergency services when the service goes down.

There are lots of single elderly people who have no other support especially elderly women where their husbands have passed away. I was just watching a few weeks ago on Channel 5 (My5) Caught on Camera where an 86 year old woman had a carer/cleaner coming to her home stealing money from her of £20 each week. Her son installed a secret CCTV camera inside her living room and managed to film this whole footage.

Can you imagine what would happen if a more serious fraud or violence occurs and you can't call the police? Some carer/cleaner or other violent/fraudulent thug could simply turn off the router to prevent the victim from calling emergency services.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

So basically, they are exempt from paying extra despite receiving a special dedicated broadband connection that is still broadband being received!

I wonder how that works out or makes much sense? Unless they are connecting this telephone to a new device that's still like a router but isn't a router to connect to computers but only reserved for the telephone service?

Exactly that. The same copper line, which was previously carrying analogue voice only to the exchange, is converted to an xDSL line. A device is supplied to plug in, which *is* a router with a POTS port for the phone to plug into. The broadband service is restricted to 0.5Mbps at the ISP side. The ISP at their option may also disable wifi and ethernet on the router, and/or block data traffic to the Internet at their side, to stop it being used for (very slow) web browsing.

Just like the analogue-to-digital TV switchover, I would expect ISPs to provide support for those people who can't plug the device in themselves - and by "ISP" this primarily means BT, as the main supplier of voice-only lines.

A more pressing problem is the work needed when there is no power close to the master socket, and/or when extension wiring needs altering.

These are one-time problems which can be solved. Nobody is saying that an elderly person on a phone-only service will just have a router arrive in the post and have to deal with it themselves.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Can you imagine what would happen if a more serious fraud or violence occurs and you can't call the police? Some carer/cleaner or other violent/fraudulent thug could simply turn off the router to prevent the victim from calling emergency services.

Just like they could unplug the phone today?

I'm not disagreeing that vulnerable people need support: just that there are solutions available. There are versions of the "emergency call button" pendant which work over the mobile network, for example.

Now, if you're saying "what happens when a vulnerable person realises they are being abused by their carer, in a rural area with no mobile coverage, at exactly the same time as an extended power cut is taking place and they have no neighbours who can help them", then that's a different matter.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

There are lots of single elderly people who have no other support especially elderly women where their husbands have passed away. I was just watching a few weeks ago on Channel 5 (My5) Caught on Camera where an 86 year old woman had a carer/cleaner coming to her home stealing money from her of £20 each week. Her son installed a secret CCTV camera inside her living room and managed to film this whole footage.

Sadly this happens far too often, we have an elderly gentleman (with dementia) in the nearest village who we send food parcels too, his carer was there when a food parcel arrived and the carer (just so happens was a Nigeran) told him she had bought the food for him and asked for money which he gave her, it was caught on camera and was passed to the police as fraud but the police after a month decided they was not going to take legal action and the care company did not sack the women either as she was friends with the boss, the care company even rung the gentlemen putting pressure on him to drop the case or they wouldn't continue with his care. He now has a new care provider.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

There are lots of single elderly people who have no other support especially elderly women where their husbands have passed away. I was just watching a few weeks ago on Channel 5 (My5) Caught on Camera where an 86 year old woman had a carer/cleaner coming to her home stealing money from her of £20 each week. Her son installed a secret CCTV camera inside her living room and managed to film this whole footage.

Sadly this happens far too often, we have an elderly gentleman (with dementia) in the nearest village who we send food parcels too, his carer was there when a food parcel arrived and the carer (just so happens was a Nigeran) told him she had bought the food for him and asked for money which he gave her, it was caught on camera and was passed to the police as fraud but the police after a month decided they was not going to take legal action and the care company did not sack the women either as she was friends with the boss, the care company even rung the gentlemen putting pressure on him to drop the case or they wouldn't continue with his care. He now has a new care provider.

When we found out my mother was being 'bullied' by a care worker (just so happens she was english 🙄 ) it was a nightmare sorting it out, the company claimed they couldn't send anyone else so we had to get another company, even back in 2015 that was difficult and we lucked out with a new company starting up, AFAIK it's even harder to get care now.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Just like the analogue-to-digital TV switchover, I would expect ISPs to provide support for those people who can't plug the device in themselves - and by "ISP" this primarily means BT, as the main supplier of voice-only lines.

A more pressing problem is the work needed when there is no power close to the master socket, and/or when extension wiring needs altering.

That is true: my elderly aunt requested, if I remember correctly, a free setup and a set top box for the switchover but the guy did nothing to replace her old aerial and the TV reception was initially poor.

Also she found it too difficult to record using her VCR when previously she could happily record from the analogue signal

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 17-Oct-22 16:12:59)