VirginO2 - Nexfibre

A recent spate of activity by some fibre sub-contractors in the village, indicates that full fibre may be here in the near future. One of the installers said that it’s VirginO2, which suggests it’s probably Nexfibre, their network arm. At one time FibreHeroes were interested and I'm told that FullFibre expressed an intereste but nothing materialised. Once the village gets full coverage, I anticipate Virgin may, initially at least, try to monopolise the area under either the Virgin or O2 brands, since I can't see anyone overbuilding for some time, if at all.

I'm currently on FTTC with iDNet who do not have Nexfibre as one of their suppliers. A quick trawl of the Internet and I can't find any of the decent suppliers who do use Nexfibre. Tried Aquiss and Pulse8 neither of whom do so.

Does anyone know of any of the 'better' suppliers who use Nexfibre?
If I am forced to use VirginO2 do they allow you to use your own modem?
Are they Broadband only or are you forced to accept their version of VoIP?

The situation isn't yet very clear but I'm trying to get some grip on the implications if, as seems likely, this does come about. A few grey boxes have already appeared on the pavements with some cabling taking place.

Sorry for the long post.

From NextFibre wikipedia. (Last updated 21 July 2024)

In a podcast interview with Zen Internet's founder Richard Tang in February 2024, Datta claimed the company will connect more homes to full fibre in the UK than any other altnet in 2024, including rival provider CityFibre, utilising the expertise of VMO2 in a period many altnets are slowing down due to operational difficulties.

...

Like Openreach and CityFibre, Nexfibre operates solely as a telecommunications network provider, meaning customers must go through an internet service provider in order to get services that use the network. However, as of February 2024, Virgin Media O2 is the sole wholesale partner of the company.[9] In an interview with Richard Tang, founder and CEO of Zen Internet, Nexfibre CEO Datta, in reference to his company opening up its network to wholesale access, stated: "We've got a few I.T. systems activities that are ongoing, which we expect will be complete within the coming months that will allow us to actually physically bring customers [ISPs] on to the network."

Zen, an ISP currently operating on the networks of CityFibre and Openreach, have confirmed they intend to become a wholesale client upon the platform's launch.

Rajiv Datta is nextfibre CEO.

Looks like Zen will be the first alternative to VMO2. I hope that helps.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

A quick trawl of the Internet and I can't find any of the decent suppliers who do use Nexfibre. Tried Aquiss and Pulse8 neither of whom do so.

We are talking to Nexfibre, but at present, whilst they are telling us they have had plenty of interest, onboarding for anyone is expected to be 2025 (from what they are claiming to us).

It is only available via Virgin Media at the moment. You would have to deal with Virgin Media support, should you have an issue. VOLT benefits are available if you have a mobile phone on O2.

There is no ONT on Nexfibre so you are forced to use their Hub5X. It seems people have now found a way around that by using an SFP+ module. That removes the Hub5X completely as shown below..........

https://fttppro.co.uk/replacing-the-hub-5x-with-a-wa...

You can have broadband only, they will not force you to have a phone service.

Edited by wolvesmad (Tue 06-Aug-24 09:24:16)

Yes, the FTTP service is the Hub 5X and as noted above seems to have a work around for lack of modem mode. VM are aware of this and may, or may not, look to close this door. It is also an expensive mod, but from the blog the users who do this have high end fibre switches, so it's a moot point I guess.
You should also be aware on FTTP VM only offer streaming TV, as the other offerings all need the old co-ax TV infrastructure cable.

Thanks very much for the replies, which confirm my fears.

@pluralist: Looked everywhere but never thought of Wikipedia.....

If there is no ONT on Nexfibre that would amount to lock in since alternatives would be forced to use non-standard, or less easily available kit. For myself, both the grief and additional cost of an SFP module wouldn’t be worth the trouble.

I use O2 mobile so overall cost would be less, but that's not the biggest consideration. Stability of the service and good tech support come before that.

@Martin Aquiss: Looking at the works, late 24 or early 25 seems most likely for it to go live. Certainly, if you did offer a service with them, I would consider moving across. The phone would probably go to Voipfone or similar.

From the reports I have seen from users on Nexfibre, it is a completely different beast to the traditional Virgin Media HFC service.

The routing onto the VM core network is different. It does not head to a local UBR / CMTS like on HFC.

The latency is very good, although not as good as Openreach FTTP it seems. Comparing my VM RFoG latency to localish Nexfibre, the pings are considerably lower.

The speeds on the 1 and 2Gbps service are excellent.

Unfortunately you're lumbered with the Hub5x and VM's DNS unless you go down the SFP route.

Support on VM if you use the VM message board is very good. They are UK based and have been a great help. Unfortunately the telephone support isn't great.

Worth bearing in mind that landline phone services are scheduled to cease by the end of next year. In many places you can't even order one these days. Hence Aquiss and others going SOGEA already.

We had Virgin Media installed through Nextfibre and from reports on our village Facebook group alot of issues with downtime are being reported.

Glad i didnt move and stuck with FTTC

For the record I contacted Zen who told me that the VirginO2 network is exclsive to them. However if OR or Cityfibre come to the area they could supply me.

So it looks as though any plans Zen may have had to partner with them have fallen through. If the technolgy is wholly different to that used by either OR or the majority of the altnets then it's hardly surprising.

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

We had Virgin Media installed through Nextfibre and from reports on our village Facebook group alot of issues with downtime are being reported.
Glad I didnt move and stuck with FTTC

TBH given the comments here, unless there is some compelling reason to change that's what I plan to do

The thing is often their isnt reason to change. A 40/80 mbps FTTC is plenty for most. The only real difference you will see is in direct downloads which if a gamer is big thing but thats it.

Its not going to effect streaming services as 4k requires about 25mbps so unless you have multiple streams running then that wont see an improvement.

People are conditioned to want the fastest possible connection even if they only max out a fraction of it

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

The thing is often their isnt reason to change. A 40/80 mbps FTTC is plenty for most. The only real difference you will see is in direct downloads which if a gamer is big thing but thats it.

My only problem is that the line is detiorating. It started as a 40/10 with a potential max of 50+ but has gradually dropped to 30/7. Some of that will be the physical line, some will be noise due to crosstalk and the number of people on it.

It is possible the line will partially recover if sufficient people move to the Virgin offering, reduce crosstalk and free up some of the better quality lines if any remain, but that's a wild guess.

My current intention is to stay with iDNet and see what happens. If the line really heads south then I shall have to consider Virgin, but given their reputation it's something I'd rather not do.

It's said that FibreHeroes and FullFibre have expressed an interest but I won't hold my breath.

One of the first things we noticed going from 70Mb to gigabit was streams loaded near instantaniously, which was a supprise because they weren't slow to start before but that extra second or two makes it feel a lot less seemless. When seeking to a different part of the videos as well it will burst to 3-400Mb/s instantaniously and playback starts again near straight away, it feel a lot more responsive. Even if you don't do big transfers the burst speed can still make a big difference.

How long are these Nexfibre builds? I live in a village West of Wrexham, they turned up in March, laid some new footway boxes, dug up the pavements in a handful of places, and put a lot of VM branded boxes half way up telephone poles with cable ties. Other poles have had loops of green fibre taped to them, and some poles nothing at all. Some of the boxes ended up being moved to brackets at the tops of poles but only a handful.

That was a few months ago - nobody has seen hide nor hair of them since. Nobody has had any literature through the door (the only literature we have had was Cityfibre in 2022 but no build ever started).

To a layman it seems like they just gave up!

In reply to a post by bornacorn:

.........they turned up in March, laid some new footway boxes, dug up the pavements in a handful of places, and put a lot of VM branded boxes......

Souinds similar to what's happening round here. They're laying new fibre in Virgin style, 50cm deep trenches in the pavement, but that's only in one of the newer estates in the village.

One van turned up with a reel of what looked like fibre at 'my' pole and did some work at the bottom of the pole and then disapeared. Logically he would have worked on the other poles first but nobody has seen them again.

There is actiivty here and there but all you get if you ask the sub-contractors is that it's 'virgin fibre' We'll see what happens, but since Virgin are involved I'm not expecting much.

VM are totally fine if the network is good, which it will be in XGS-PON nexfibre areas. I've had absolutely 0 issues on VM DOCSIS in the past 2 years in my area (absolutely no contention in this area, which isn't even a consideration on XGS-PON). 0 downtime.

I really don't know why you would stay with any FTTC vs XGS-PON, even if it is only from VM.

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

I really don't know why you would stay with any FTTC vs XGS-PON, even if it is only from VM.

Agree, the VM ISP network is very good; the concerns about VM on Thinkbroadband were usually related to issues with DOCSIS in oversubscribed student areas, many of which have been resolved. The brand is still suffering from the issues from 2005 through 2014 ish timeframe.

Can you use your own router with Virgin? My understanding is that you can't and the supplied router is locked down, although apparently there are some (expensive) ways round this.

By the time the network goes live round here this may have changed, but it's a case of wait and see.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

Can you use your own router with Virgin? My understanding is that you can't and the supplied router is locked down, although apparently there are some (expensive) ways round this.

in DOCSIS (coax cable) and RFOG areas - YES, you put the Virgin Media provided box into “Modem mode”. These are the Hub 3, Hub 4 and Hub 5.

In nexfibre areas there is a combined router/ONT which so far doesn’t apparently have a modem mode. This is the Hub 5x. Since this is just software, it will eventually arrive, but the problem is Virgin Media can take forever for this.

More here:
https://mightygadget.co.uk/virgin-media-hub-5x-vs-5-...

Edited by jchamier (Wed 14-Aug-24 00:14:03)

I have got the 2gig service a few weeks ago, you can use the hub5x as a modem I am using it with my netgear mesh router and I get full speed all the time can download over 2gig speed with my 2.5gig ethernet port connected to the 10gig port on the back

You have a 5X with a modem mode that works, or you're just plugging it into a mesh and doing double NAT?

If you don't want to wait https://fttppro.co.uk/replacing-the-hub-5x-with-a-wa...

For those in nexfibre areas whom are highly technical that may be an option. Not for the majority. It is a shame nexfibre don’t supply an ONT.

I agree. I also think no one should give VM any business, their attitude towards and treatment of their customers is diabolical at best.

In reply to a post by Croftie2:

I agree. I also think no one should give VM any business, their attitude towards and treatment of their customers is diabolical at best.

Not my personal experience, but then if I didn’t have VM, my only broadband choice would be VDSL via Openreach at 30Mbps download, 2Mbps upload, or 4G from Three at 40 Mbps. I’m in an old DOCSIS 3.1 area.

Connect your own router to one of the 1Gb port (1-3) whilst having the fibre and power also connected but no other ethernet or wireless clients
via your own router LAN side access the VM Hub (the reason for this is the hub only sees the WAN MAC address of your router and no others)
now factory reset the Hub
once the Hub has rebooted browse to http://192.168.0.1 and configure the password for it, once you are on the standard status page access http://192.168.0.1/?page=modemmode and enable it.
the Hub should reboot and assign your device an IP if it does not try and power cycle your device. it can take several minutes to assign so be patient.

In reply to a post by bornacorn:

How long are these Nexfibre builds? I live in a village West of Wrexham, they turned up in March

It's been a lot longer than that round here, but they still seem to be active. They seem to come and do a bunch of stuff then disappear again for a few weeks.

Nexfibre currently only supply via VMO2.
I have read interviews that they plan to make a deal with Giffgaff.

I have seen works done in my area and a wayleave has been agreed with Nexfibre in June and received a letter from SCCI Alphatrack that this permission has been granted. I have seen Fibre installation works out from my balcony at night time in June and there will be more works in a few days including in September again.

Looking at the packages, while I can compare that these VMO2 are slightly cheaper than those of DOCSIS but still much more expensive than the other Altnet providers like Community Fibre for example.

Even though the CEO claims it is a wholesale network, I'm not too sure if there will be many new providers joining any time soon. I think this Nexfibre partnership is meant for exclusive dominance to grab as much customers as possible first.

By bringing wholesale networks, it will saturate the VMO2 market share, which I don't think is the immediate plan for Nexfibre. That's why I'm not all that excited. If any provider comes and it is cheaper than VMO2 offerings then VM will lose these customers. So, what I think will happen is that those packages will be tightly regulated so that customers don't have much advantage choosing another provider other than VMO2.

I have seen this happen with OFNL, their packages are significantly more expensive for the same ISPs vs that of Openreach and CityFibre.
Just see this for a comparison... https://www.rocket-fibre.co.uk/residential-broadband... vs https://www.rocket-fibre.co.uk/residential-broadband...
https://www.directsavetelecom.co.uk/full-fibre-max.php Openreach vs OFNL https://www.directsavetelecom.co.uk/ftth.php

While, this might seem like an irrelevant comparison, it actually isn't. Because if Nexfibre follow similar routes like that of OFNL then what advantage do you get to have this as a wholesale network?!

That's why you see them targeting areas that have no Openreach, Cityfibre, etc. They want to be a monopoly.

They may the OFNL route on pricing, but your question on what advantage is there if all prices match, well many.

ISPs are not all equal, they have different policies in how they manage their networks, different peering/transit arrangements, policies regarding IP addressing, then of course things like contract length, and support staff.

Given giffgaff are part of the VirginO2 group it’s just a way of offering a cheaper product without diluting the main brand - which is the whole point of giffgaff anyway.

I’ll be interested when there is a genuine 3rd party using the network.

In terms of VM pricing they are not competing with small altnets but openreach ISPs.