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Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Sat 08-Dec-12 16:10:40
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Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[link to this post]
 
Hi
Sorry still new to this ebook lark but have just installed Calibre and would be nice to share with friends/family my Kindle Paperwhite ebooks in pdf (or other ebook) format. According to this i can remove the Kindle DRM using a calibre plugin and freely convert my Kindle ebooks to whatever format i require. But is it legal to do this? If not, why? My Kindle ebooks cost almost the same as the hard copies, surely i should be able to do what i want with the ebooks since i own them? I know others can read my purchased Kiindle ebooks using the Kindle for PC app but i do NOT want to do this. I guess removing DRM and then mass-sharing ebooks via torrents, rapidshare etc would be illegal but interested to know if the same applies when sharing amongst friends or family, just like i could with a real book (obviously one at a time).
Cheers

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Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 08-Dec-12 16:22:28
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:
But is it legal to do this?
No.
If not, why?
Copyright law, it's in an ebook and it's also printed inside a hardcopy book.
My Kindle ebooks cost almost the same as the hard copies, surely i should be able to do what i want with the ebooks since i own them?
But you can't do as you like with a hardcopy book... You can let other people read them in your home or you can lend them the actual book, and then you can't read it until you get it back.

Same applies to ebooks from Amazon.

One thing you definitely can't do legally with a hard copy book is photocopy it and give the copies away- that's essentially what you would doing with an ebook if you removed the DRM and gave copies away.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 08-Dec-12 16:39:52
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Yes, it's ok to remove DRM in this country. The copyright industry will not take action against copying for personal use, however your proposed use is not personal use so probably violates copyright.


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Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 08-Dec-12 16:42:44
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
The copyright industry will not take action against copying for personal use...
That doesn't automatically make it legal, but it's a fair point.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Sat 08-Dec-12 16:56:33
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for explaining Bill

TalkTalk Plus LLU ADSL2+ 18383/1020 kbps
Pioneer Kuro 428XD ISF'd
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Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 08-Dec-12 17:05:15
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
After I'd posted that I thought of another (possibly better) analogy- when you buy a book then yes, you own the book- the paper, ink, glue in the binding, the gold leaf on the cover if that's your thing tongue

And yes, you can do as you like with it, from putting it in a bank vault to hanging the pages on a nail in the smallest room.

But the reason you bought the book, ie the content (story, pictures, recipes whatever) - that still belongs to the copyright holder.

An ebook is pure content!

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 08-Dec-12 17:20:19
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I had a thought (it happens sometimes tongue) and had a look at the copyright notice in a book I happened to have to hand.

it included the following:
... shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent...
So it would seem that my comment that it could be lent was wrong, and that most charity shops, church bazaars etc are routinely breaking the law crazy

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 08-Dec-12 17:48:11
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
surely i should be able to do what i want with the ebooks since i own them?
I think you'll find that you have licensed the content, rather than "bought" it.

Amazon have pulled books from Kindle remotely, including (ironically) Orwell's 1984.

"Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use."

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

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Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 08-Dec-12 18:22:03
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Kindle books can be loaned to another reader for a period of 14 days. The borrower does not need to own a Kindle -- Kindle books can also be read using our free Kindle reading applications for PC, Mac, iPad, iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android devices. Not all books are lendable -- it is up to the publisher or rights holder to determine which titles are eligible for lending. The lender will not be able to read the book during the loan period. Books can only be loaned once, and subscription content is not currently available for lending.
It's all getting a bit complex.


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Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 08-Dec-12 18:51:07
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
Amazon have pulled books from Kindle remotely, including (ironically) Orwell's 1984.
I think they got rapped over the knuckles for it too, though I don't know the details.

Quite right too, "permanent" does not mean "until we change our mind" mad

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sat 08-Dec-12 18:53:13
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I always find it amusing how people can be experts in copyright law, and at the same time be suitably ignorant enough to assume it's ok.

~ Camieabz ~

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Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Sat 08-Dec-12 19:30:12
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
As far as I know it is legal. provided you purchased the ebook and that you only have it loaded onto 1 reader & it is for your personal use only .
Standard User Fabian3745
(newbie) Wed 12-Dec-12 03:57:30
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by billford
Moderator billford
(moderator) Wed 12-Dec-12 07:28:20
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: Fabian3745] [link to this post]
 
Advertising is not permitted.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User dragonsd
(newbie) Mon 21-Oct-13 19:55:03
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
hi,
I've been reading about drm on here and am just wondering can I remove drm to read kindle books on a kobo for MY OWN PERSONAL USE without infringing copyright law, I bought a kobo and find that most books I want are predominantly on kindle, any info positive or negative would be appreciated.

thank you
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 21-Oct-13 22:58:09
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: dragonsd] [link to this post]
 
In the UK, circumventing DRM is actionable as if it was a breach of copyright under section 296ZA Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (as amended). This amendment to the 1988 Act was introduced to implement the corresponding requirement in the EU Copyright Directive, Directive 2001/29/EC.

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 22-Oct-13 00:24:55
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: dragonsd] [link to this post]
 
Kobo doesn't read Kindle .AZW format ebooks, so are you going to convert them 1st?
Supported File Formats

eBooks: EPUB, PDF, and MOBI
Documents: PDF
Images: JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP, and TIFF
Text: TXT, HTML, and RTF
Comic Books: CBZ and CBR


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 22-Oct-13 01:13:37
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Kobo doesn't read Kindle .AZW format ebooks, so are you going to convert them 1st?
Calibre will convert non-DRM AZW to a Kobo supported format. The issue is the DRM.

Ultimately, it's best to select a reader that has the content you want available for it. I use my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 as my e-book reader these days, so I can use the Kindle app for Kindle content and Mantano for everything else. I prefer to avoid Kindle content so far as possible, because of the closed Amazon ecosystem.

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 22-Oct-13 01:34:02
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
I was just pointing out to OP that Kobo doesn't accept Kindle .AZW ebooks. Hope you don't mind!
In reply to a post by David_W:
the closed Amazon ecosystem.
It isn't closed! Kindle will accept ebooks from outside Amazon and they may be in non-Amazon formats like .MOBI.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 22-Oct-13 02:07:51
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
I was just pointing out to OP that Kobo doesn't accept Kindle .AZW ebooks. Hope you don't mind!
I merely gave a solution to the potential format problem you raised, assuming the OP can overcome the DRM issue he was aware of.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by David_W:
the closed Amazon ecosystem.
It isn't closed! Kindle will accept ebooks from outside Amazon and they may be in non-Amazon formats like .MOBI.
The closure I was thinking of was of the content, not the reader platform. As Amazon do not permit third parties to use the Kindle DRM system, there is no way to use Kindle content supplied with DRM on non-Kindle devices or apps other than by circumventing the DRM.


I'd rather have DRM free content, as I believe DRM impedes the rights of a content purchaser to use their content whilst doing nothing to prevent piracy. If you're going to breach the copyright in the content, there's no further legal peril in circumventing the DRM.

If there is no alternative to DRM, but there is a choice of formats, I'd rather buy content using Adobe DRM, which works on a variety of devices and apps.

Standard User dragonsd
(newbie) Tue 22-Oct-13 07:55:10
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thank you, I bought the kobo for the books I could get on its platform but have recently found some really old books I read when I was young that I thought my kids might like, but only found them on kindle, I would like to get them but not paying out for a kindle just for six books specially as they are the same price as paperbacks these days
Standard User billford
(elder) Tue 22-Oct-13 08:05:31
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook? *DELETED*


[re: dragonsd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dragonsd:
... but have recently found some really old books ...
If they're really old then they're probably out of copyright, have you looked on any of the free sites like Project Gutenberg?

They provide a range of formats, all DRM-free. The transcription quality can be variable, but it's a good source.

Amazon also have their own list of free sources that you might find useful- here.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 22-Oct-13 12:35:56
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
Calibre will convert non-DRM AZW to a Kobo supported format.
You sure of that? Your linked stuff only says:
Input Formats: CBZ, CBR, CBC, CHM, DJVU, DOCX, EPUB, FB2, HTML, HTMLZ, LIT, LRF, MOBI, ODT, PDF, PRC, PDB, PML, RB, RTF, SNB, TCR, TXT, TXTZ
Where's AZW?
In reply to a post by David_W:
The issue is the DRM.
Is it? We don't know that.

THe OP2 comes along and adds to last year's thread. For all we know he has file transferred some .AZW ebooks from Kindle to Kobo and wonders why he can't see them. He assumes it's because of DRM but it will be just due to the spec of the Kobo. Hence my point & Q.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 22-Oct-13 13:54:48
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Re: Is it legal to remove DRM from a Kindle ebook?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by David_W:
Calibre will convert non-DRM AZW to a Kobo supported format.
You sure of that? Your linked stuff only says:
Input Formats: CBZ, CBR, CBC, CHM, DJVU, DOCX, EPUB, FB2, HTML, HTMLZ, LIT, LRF, MOBI, ODT, PDF, PRC, PDB, PML, RB, RTF, SNB, TCR, TXT, TXTZ
Where's AZW?
In the Note section of that FAQ, it says "MOBI files often have .azw or .azw3 file extensions", which is a slight gloss on the relationship between AZW/AZW3 and MOBI, but it clearly extends the coverage of the converter to AZW. If you read on to the next FAQ it gives AZW as the third most preferred format to convert, after LIT (Microsoft Reader) and MOBI.

Some time ago, I used Calibre to convert a non-DRM AZW to EPUB successfully.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by David_W:
The issue is the DRM.
Is it? We don't know that.
You're picking a trivial concern with my choice of words. "Potential DRM" may have been better, but I think I'm entitled to rely on OP2's premise that the AZW has DRM. I had already said explicitly "Calibre will convert non-DRM AZW to a Kobo supported format", leaving the meaning in no doubt.

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