CG Nat

Oh dear, I see Hyperoptic are going to move to CG Nat

See http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7518-hyperoptic-a...

Edited by deleted (Tue 27-Sep-16 10:40:34)

The lack of competition in places that have Hyperoptic may mean people can't move away easily without going back to very low speeds.

So prices are rising by a fiver, essentially.

Might be a side effect of the pressure on all-inclusive pricing, i.e. make the advertised product as bare bones as possible.

If it was CGNAT on the entry level 20 Mbps only, and 100 Mbps and Gig as now that would be preferable, or IPv6 appearing at the same time as CGNAT

Hyperoptic started off by touting themselves as innovative and how they'd announce new products, and they don't seem to have done anything since launch.

A product between 100meg and 1gig would be great, but they seem limited by limiting speeds by using the NIC speed setting on their switch

Maybe they've employed Brett from Be* to manage the network?

Has anyone managed to get a static IP set up yet? There's no option for it in the account settings. I contacted support yesterday but haven't had a reply.

Here's hoping that it is included in the 1Gb package as standard.

Their terms state they provide an Internet connection.. At what level does it cease to be considered one? With no ipv6 and no ability to forward ports it's looking a little bit of a poor show.

I wonder what this news will do to sales? Certainly I'm looking at whether FTTC is available here, I'm not using the 100mbit symmetric to the degree where I would notice the step down to an 80/20 product.. Last I checked, the cabinet was in place and awaiting fibre.

In reply to a post by locutus:

A product between 100meg and 1gig would be great, but they seem limited by limiting speeds by using the NIC speed setting on their switch

So how do they sell a 20Mb product? Not familiar with 20Mb Ethernet.

The limiting must occur elsewhere; my router connects to their switch at 1Gbit even though I'm on the 100mwg product.

How do you mean? In comes into your apartment as a cat5 cable.

I think the point raised is that it's believed that Hyperoptic supply the different product speeds by setting limits to the port on the edge switches they deploy in the dwelling units they serve.. And they could indeed do that for the 1gig and 100meg product as you could allow the link to negotiate at 1gig or at only 100meg fdx.. Except they also offer a 20meg down 1meg up product, so the question is: how does that work?

I reported with anecdotal evidence from my own install that the rate between my own router and the switch that Hyperoptic installed in my building is 1gbit fdx, yet I'm on the 100meg product. Thus implying that they use a different method to provide the rate limits for their different products.

Speaking of their different products I noticed references to a 5meg product in their terms and conditions. I wonder whether they're looking to sell an even slower product for cheaper still than the 20meg one?

I was asking ignitionet

We've been working hard to bring our service to as many sites as possible so that people can enjoy the benefits of our speeds and differing infrastructure. We're always looking for new ways to help people and provide the package that works best for our customers. We'll pass on your feedback to our team, but if you would like to get in touch directly, please email [email protected]

In reply to a post by neilka:

Has anyone managed to get a static IP set up yet? There's no option for it in the account settings. I contacted support yesterday but haven't had a reply.

Have you received a response yet? For anyone looking to set up the static IP with us please email in and we will be in touch to arrange. Details below.

Lack of IPv6 does not change whether its an Internet connection and for existing customers there has never been IPv6 so no real grounds for a complaint.

Addition of CGNAT - a lot hinges on the implementation, its reliability and how soon IPv6 will appear. So one lawyer will say yes a case, and the same one could easily defend against a complaint.

Some of their apartments may have a 5 Mbps 'free' version i.e. bundled into the rent people pay to live there.

Andrew

In reply to a post by Hyperoptic_CS:

In reply to a post by neilka:

Has anyone managed to get a static IP set up yet? There's no option for it in the account settings. I contacted support yesterday but haven't had a reply.

Have you received a response yet? For anyone looking to set up the static IP with us please email in and we will be in touch to arrange. Details below.

Unfortunately not, it's request 136507 if it's possible to chase it up.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I was asking ignitionet

I think blueacid already answered you.

The post I responded to was suggesting that Hyperoptic limit tiers by controlling speed and duplex on the switch ports. Aside from being a bad idea that wouldn't permit a 20Mb service, so the rate limiting can't rely on port speed.

I also note 100Mb speed tests are faster than is possible with Fast Ethernet, so the NIC must be connecting at 1Gb.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I was asking ignitionet

I think blueacid already answered you.

That may be but how would I know?

When I changed from 1Gig to 100Meg, my WAN port changed speed, it's now negotiated to 100Meg.

Through intuition, assumption and waiting for ignitionnet to come along and reply with either "yeah, what blueacid said" or "no, that's not what I meant at all".

Simples.

In reply to a post by neilka:

In reply to a post by Hyperoptic_CS:

In reply to a post by neilka:

Has anyone managed to get a static IP set up yet? There's no option for it in the account settings. I contacted support yesterday but haven't had a reply.

Have you received a response yet? For anyone looking to set up the static IP with us please email in and we will be in touch to arrange. Details below.

Unfortunately not, it's request 136507 if it's possible to chase it up.

Thank you for letting us know. We'll do that for you now.

Thanks, I've had a reply to say that I haven't been migrated to CGNAT yet (which I was aware of) so I can't be moved to a static IP yet. I realise the system probably doesn't allow it at the moment, but as a suggestion it would be preferable if customers could opt out of being moved to CGNAT before it happens, rather than having to wait until they're moved on to it and then moving back.

For example, BT give their customers the option of opting out of CGNAT "if you don't want to be opted in at a later date":
http://btsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_i...

Hyperoptic sent out an email to customers this week saying that in future all IP addresses will be dynamic, but it says absolutely nothing about CGNAT. It also says static IPs are available for an extra monthly cost, but doesn't say what the cost is (apparently £5, which seems a bit steep). I find this rather unhelpful, given the problems that may arise for some people.

No sign yet of this on the website, except for a help article titled "Static IP Addresses" that talks a lot about CGNAT but doesn't mention static IPs at all!

Hyperoptic is currently being installed in my building. I don't want a CGNAT connection and would like a static IP from day one. Is this now an option when ordering?

In reply to a post by goldenarmZz:

Hyperoptic is currently being installed in my building. I don't want a CGNAT connection and would like a static IP from day one. Is this now an option when ordering?

You can absolutely have one, just put in a request to us and we can sort this for you.

- Karis

I notice on your website that underneath the "headline" prices it says "ideal for" followed by a picture of a game console controller. Beneath that it says 100Mb � Great for streaming HD & gaming.

I assume you will be changing that as it's clearly misleading if you need to pay more to avoid CG NAT.

Maybe you support PCP?

If you do, I am not sure that current consoles do anyway.

Spotted this on an article elsewhere regarding when BT introduced it....

Data protection law specialist Kathryn Wynn of Pinsent Masons, the law firm behind Out-Law.com, said that there were privacy implications to IP address sharing that BT, and other ISPs that want to conduct similar trials, would have to consider.

"EU privacy watchdogs have identified IP addresses as, generally, constituting 'personal data'," Wynn said, "This means that organisations responsible for IP addresses are bound by data protection laws."
"IP addresses can identify individuals, but where IP addresses are shared, even though it may seem that the data has been depersonalised, there is potential for individuals to be at best prejudiced by the actions of others and at worst implicated for illegal activity undertaken by others. ISPs that want to deploy IP address sharing technology need to provide customers with a transparent explanation of the implications that technology could have on their privacy and provide those individuals with the ability to opt out from such a scheme," she said,
"In addition, the ISPs must have a background mechanism in place to unpick any prejudicial treatment customers experience as a result of IP address sharing, such as being identified as being, or somehow connected to, the perpetrator of a crime they are in fact not responsible for," Wynn added.

Hyperoptic finally replied to my email with some concerns about this, and managed to avoid answering anything except adding marketing guff.

As a residential customer, there is no difference between static and dynamic IP.
Only if you have specific settings on your connection, hosting server or some services.

"Some Services"? Well, that's covered it then.

As the lack of IPs is a global challenge it's only fair to be applied across the board

I will be asking for someone technical to respond I think.

Well the follow up from their support was just as bad!

What's wrong with that? Noone will notice. People use their phones more than ever now, virtually everyone uses CGNAT on there with no problems.

It's annoying they are so slow at IPv6 support, granted. But noone cares about CGNAT, even if you're technical you can get round it by using a VPN.

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

What's wrong with that? Noone will notice. People use their phones more than ever now, virtually everyone uses CGNAT on there with no problems.

It's annoying they are so slow at IPv6 support, granted. But noone cares about CGNAT, even if you're technical you can get round it by using a VPN.

Well gamers will notice when their consoles don't get open nat and p2p voice/hosting custom games doesn't work any more.

I don't see VPN as a solution for that unless you can get one with low latency plus kit that will let upnp work with it.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Nov-16 19:40:11)

In reply to a post by legume:

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

What's wrong with that? Noone will notice. People use their phones more than ever now, virtually everyone uses CGNAT on there with no problems.

It's annoying they are so slow at IPv6 support, granted. But noone cares about CGNAT, even if you're technical you can get round it by using a VPN.

Well gamers will notice when their consoles don't get open nat and p2p voice/hosting custom games doesn't work any more.

I don't see VPN as a solution for that unless you can get one with low latency plus kit that will let upnp work with it.

UPNP is NOT a requirement for console gaming, most modern systems are quite capable of punching out providing the connection tracking in the firewall allows related replies to come back in. UPNP does make things easier of course, it's also a massive security hole and is precisely how a lot of these IOT things are getting hacked (They helpfully punch UPNP port forwards though the firewall so your camera/whatever app can connect remotely)

Also if the VPN endpoint is nearby then the latency increase can be minimal (a few ms),

I would have thought getting the console on a VPN in the first place would be to tricky for most people, and actually the cost of the hardware needed and the VPN service would probably outweigh the £5 or so hyperoptic want to charge for the static IP.

I agree upnp can be bad, plus vpn would be a bit pointless compared to getting a static.

Edit: Though the point about devices being hacked would also preclude setting anything up manually for remote access and people who want to, will find that their hyperoptic internet is less functional than a "normal" internet connection.

On punching out, I've found it varies between games. The examples I gave of hosting and p2p voice just don't seem to work well/at all for some without upnp or port forwarding/dmz for a single device. The consoles themselves may function, but will warn about restricted access - which is not what you should see as a customer that bought a product advertised for gaming. If you have multiple consoles you have to use upnp for all of them to get open nat (only tested with xbox).

My other post in this thread was calling out what I see as misleading advertising = don't say things like best for gaming when you need to add a fiver a month for that to be true.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Nov-16 10:48:29)

Waiting for the non-hypothetical problems to arise

Seems I was switched to CGN the other day and since my ping doubled, internet in general despite having the same speeds (800ish) seems sluggish, things like my Philips Hue lighting system, IP webcam, Dyson fan, sercurity system that uploads images on activation and a few other app/internet connected devices have been acting up.. sometime not seeing the internet or needing their connection reset. Not had the chance to try any gaming stuff yet but will do at the weekend if not switched back by then. I asked Hyperoptic to take me off CGN and give me a static IP. I'll find out when I swap over to a static IP if for sure it is what's causing this..

Hello,

Has a static IP been assigned to you? If it hasn't been done yet, please send us a PM so we can speed it up. Let us know if it helps with mentioned issues.

Kind regards,

Ana

Hello,

Give me Gigabit speeds, I wouldn't give a flying [censored] about CG Nat

Your customers clearly don't know, or don't appreciate how lucky they are to get even near!

Hello,

We'd love to bring our hyperspeeds to you! Have a look at our map to see where we are or will be soon hyperoptic.com/map/ and make sure to register your interest.

Kind regards,

Ana

Do you install into a single residential dwelling? I didn't think so. So no point in me bothering is there really.

Hyperoptic were prepared to install on our development of 75 freehold terraced houses and low rise leasehold flats. Their proposal involved installing ethernet networks in external trunking to serve the various properties. For a number of reasons we eventually declined their offer.

I once gave them a whole village of over 2000 properties and they weren't interested.

So that does not surprise me

Depends on the layout. Our apartments, just over 400 showed strong interest from waaay before formal talks took place, two months after they went live over half the properties were signed to Hyperoptic.. so I'd imagine it is all about layout, build ease and demand or likelyness of sign up.

In reply to a post by Binary_Digit:

Depends on the layout. Our apartments, just over 400 showed strong interest from waaay before formal talks took place, two months after they went live over half the properties were signed to Hyperoptic.. so I'd imagine it is all about layout, build ease and demand or likelyness of sign up.

Well having 400 apartments in a block is their wet dream. so so easy to do

In reply to a post by 23Prince:

I once gave them a whole village of over 2000 properties and they weren't interested.

So that does not surprise me

Connecting up a village VS connecting a block of flats/apartments is an entirely different beast,

Blocks of Flats/Apartments are Much easier, usually one cable duct into the building then it's all internal for all the units within the building

We will be bringing our services to individual houses too, so registering interest is an important step.
Like it has been mentioned, apartments and high density dwellings has been our main interest, but we would like to bring our service to all and we will continue to roll out based on demand.

Do let us know if you have any questions.

- Karis

I can share one - our dedicated private security camera network is both IP and GSM based. On day of CGN go live, camera's went offline for remote monitoring and had to rely on GSM data backup ( that is a lot of data usage all of a sudden )

Took me and the security firm lots of analysis to figure out what the bleep was going on as we could see the cameras all being registered fine but as soon as one tried to connect, there was a failure.

Back to static and fine now

I'm new to this site and wish I had discovered this thread earlier. Can I please ask what the issues with your Hue have been? For months I've thought my bridge was possessed with my lights randomly changing scenes. But now I think about it I only started getting problems in the time after that email about changes to the contract landed.