Should I buy a MacBook Pro?

I use a Windows laptop as a 'desktop replacement'. I'm fed up with it randomly bluescreening after changing from Vista to Windows 7 and am considering replacing it with a MacBook Pro. However, I use a shed load of Windows software which would be very expensive - or impossible - to replace with Mac versions. So if I bought a Mac I would be permanently running it in Windows mode or running most of my software under something like VmWare. Is it worth going for the Mac or would I be better buying a better Windows machine? Any thoughts would be gratefully received.

Despite a hatred of Bill Gates' software I too have lots of legacy software so run Windows. I now have two machine running Windows 7 (a netbook and an Intel i7 6 core setup, so either end of the spectrum) and have found it as stable as my old XP Pro set up on both systems - unlike Vista which was useless!

I suspect your blue screen problems are hardware related - either fix your current machine or get a new Winows PC - MUCH cheaper than a Mac plus all that new software.

If you don't mind buying Parallels/ VMWare or the free Sun (Oracle I guess) virtual machine - or going he dual boot root via Boot Camp route - you can have the best of both world. Tell MS you have had a disk failure and need to reinstall windows, install it either as a VM or a boot partition, and reinstall all your software on the VM or partition.

Two machines in one. Job done. You can then explore the Mac at your leisure and discover the truth of the axiom "Once Mac Never Back" for yourself.

(I do know a couple of Windows dev who use MBPs as there machine 'cos it runs Windows faster than any other machine (according to them - never tried myself))

Out of interest, what 'doze software are you tied to? Quicken?

I think you're attacking the wrong problem. Windows 7 is very stable - easily as good as OS X in that respect. It would be no more stable on a MacBook Pro than it is on a good PC. I can tell you, hand on heart, that I have never had a crash on my Windows 7 setup.

Your best bet is to try and sort out the problems with your current PC. Almost certainly one of your drivers is causing the problem; make sure that all are updated to the latest version and that you have applied all Windows patches. Failing that, just buy a new one. If basically all you want to do is run Windows software you will get much better value, and better results, that way.

Or, if you really want to try a Unix-style OS, you could always try Linux on your current PC. Arguably that's the most stable of the current desktop operating systems (arguably because I would say that one of the free BSDs is the most stable, but they are not what I would call mainstream). A lot of Windows programs run quite happily under Wine. That's a zero-cost option.

If you are still interested in the Mac option then compare hardware, price for price, with similarly specified PC hardware. I believe you will find a discrepancy in favour of the PC. Buying a Mac just to run Windows programs makes no sense IMO.

(I do know a couple of Windows dev who use MBPs as there machine 'cos it runs Windows faster than any other machine (according to them - never tried myself))

There have been periods when Macs have been the fastest notebook PC to run Windows - like when the Core architecture effectively premiered on them. But the march of progress on the Generic PC side is inexorable, so Apple are more often behind than they are ahead, because they only have a single line of high-performance laptops and aren't able to update them every month.

One disadvantage of the Mac is that while Windows is permitted it is not actively supported. If you have a mainstream vendor like HP or Toshiba, you can get support if Windows is playing up. With a Mac you can only really get support if MacOS is playing up. If there was a situation like the OP reported - random Blue Screens - running an unsupported OS on an esoteric platform (EFI/Boot Camp) he would be even more out on a limb.

Edited by deleted (Fri 24-Jun-11 11:53:24)

Got to agree with the other posters that there is no inherent stability problem with Windows 7.

I've been using it on a work-supplied laptop for quite some time. Don't want to tempt fate, but I seem to have fewer problems than I'd grown accustomed to on previous versions of Windows.

I don't think it has ever bluescreened since I switched, and I can't remember the last time it hung (although I'm sure it did once).

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Will try and sort out the stability problems on my current PC, although it's kind of difficult to know where to start as it just seems to crash at random.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

You can then explore the Mac at your leisure and discover the truth of the axiom "Once Mac Never Back" for yourself.

I think im the only person to brake the saying i had a mac for 2 month and couldn't wait to move back lol i found my self using windows 7 on boot camp 90% of the time so sold it to a friend who was doing graphic design at college and went back to a pc.

in fairness though i dident mind osx its self just wasn't for me in the end

Also to the op i agree with other posters ive been using windows 7 all the way from the beta and never once had any problems with it. Ive only ever seen one blue screen and my graphics card caused it (needed replacing)

You tend to find that Macbook Pros have better graphic chips than PCs with similar specifications.

I don't know why but some PC laptop makers cheap out when it comes to the graphics hardware. So unless you go for a top of the range laptop or an alienware then the Macs perform very well.

Not to mention they're quieter, look nicer and don't have an ugly black brick on a rope for a power supply.

Although buying one to run Windows seems a bit daft. Windows 7 is only more reliable than previous versions due to it validating like mad when the computer is idle. So saying Windows 7 is more reliable than another OSX would be like a car manufacturer saying their car was very reliable due it having a weekly service and oil change.

BSOD = bad hardware or drivers. It can also be bad RAM modules.

Run a full error scan on the hard disk before you do anything else.

You tend to find that Macbook Pros have better graphic chips than PCs with similar specifications.

Um. Not true. You can buy a laptop - even a humble Dell for example - with better graphics than any MacBook for less money.

The only good things macs have going for them are their unix roots and the amount of half-decent software available for them. The rest of it is like a prison, from the OS to the hardware, you get what jobsy tells you to have and pay a great deal for it.

You are looking at this from a bizarre perspective. If your software is blue screening Windows 7 on a bare metal PC then it will still blue screen Windows 7 in VmWare/Parallels/VirtualBox!

Windows 7 is in my experience very reliable indeed and I'd struggle to say whether it or OS X is better here. I can do things with drivers and software and hardware that are supposed to be possible in Windows 7 that I know from experience will be guaranteed to cause a blue screen every time so I have found work arounds that usually involve stopping Windows Update from installing newer drivers! I can't find anything that will cause OS X to suffer the equivalent (AKA a kernel panic) on a real Mac in the same predictable way. This is certainly down to there being fewer possible hardware/driver/software permutations in OSX than it being inherently more stable.

You may want to go back any analyse what you have from the ground up. If you did a simple upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 then you might want to do a complete back up then reinstall everything from scratch. in whatever is the most basic way that your system allows you (beware of erasing any recovery partition!) I know this is boring and time consuming, but you may well find it resolves your problems. You may also want to check that there isn't some issue with your hardware. It may seem that it was changing from Vista that caused the problem, but that may only be a symptom. I had a machine here that ran XP perfectly for years, but Vista wouldn't even install on it without a blue screen. I could reinstall XP and no problem! It turned out that I had a flaky stick of RAM.

Edited by Desmond (Fri 24-Jun-11 22:00:57)

Sorry to argue, but I have found that the latest drivers were often the cause of my problems with Win 7 (and OS X for that matter). I have a real world right here right now example in Win 7. I have an ATI graphics card on my HTPC. The drivers from April work fine. The drivers from May cause BBC and ITV and a lot of other HD content to pixelate (this is by now a well documented issue). I've not bothered with trying the June drivers since I know from experience ATI can be appallingly slow to address such issues and rarely say in their release notes whether they have or have not addressed them. I don't plan on doing any updates to my HTPC's ATI drivers until I know from user reports that the problem has been resolved.

The best rule to always follow is if it ain't broke and no one has given a compelling reason to change things then don't try and fix it. Particularly, don't update drivers even if WIndows or something keeps nagging you to do so unless you have problems with the ones you have installed. Moreover, don't trust WIndows' restore feature to put you back where you were and don't delete old driver downloads you may have since some companies seem intent on forcing you to download their new software only, which is a big problem when it causes your machine to blue screen on boot as soon as it is installed.

The best rule to always follow is if it ain't broke and no one has given a compelling reason to change things

A good rule in general. But in this case it is broke, so testing with updated drivers is a logical trouble-shooting step. Trouble-shooting computer problems is not rocket science, just a matter of methodical testing.

LOL. The next OSX upgrade is going to cost £25-29. How much is Windows?

Windows requires activation and all sorts of anti-piracy checks. OSX has none of that.

If i want to I can install Windows or Linux on the Mac, how is that being "locked down"?

Windows 7 cost me £45; that was for a full version rather than an upgrade, and I got physical media for both 32- and 64-bit versions. I'm not sure that's a huge difference in cost.

My laptop cost me £275, my desktop £350. What do the cheapest Apple computers cost?

Locking down is more applicable to software under OS X; Apple is increasingly locking down the supply chain. You are right that Windows 7 or Linux will run on Apple hardware, but what's the point of paying so much more to run the same software? Macs only make sense if you run OS X on them; otherwise a commodity PC is much better value.

In reply to a post by acpsd775:

I think im the only person to brake the saying i had a mac for 2 month and couldn't wait to move back lol i found my self using windows 7 on boot camp 90% of the time

You're not the only one, I really tried to like OSX, but after over a year of use I'm back to W7 at work.

Can't really put my finger on why, was fine for email and browsing, but almost everything else felt awkward for some reason, I absolutely hated finder and the way windows worked (resizing etc), felt like I wasn't in control.

As for the OP, I know it doesn't help, but I too have never had a crash or any problem with W7. I actually had more program glitches and crashes in OSX.

In reply to a post by SamsonUK:

In reply to a post by acpsd775:

I think im the only person to brake the saying i had a mac for 2 month and couldn't wait to move back lol i found my self using windows 7 on boot camp 90% of the time

You're not the only one, I really tried to like OSX, but after over a year of use I'm back to W7 at work.

Can't really put my finger on why, was fine for email and browsing, but almost everything else felt awkward for some reason, I absolutely hated finder and the way windows worked (resizing etc), felt like I wasn't in control.

As for the OP, I know it doesn't help, but I too have never had a crash or any problem with W7. I actually had more program glitches and crashes in OSX.

That's basically my experience too hated that when you pressed maximise it just slightly resized and not full screened lol and just a lot of other little niggles.

and just to say before any one calls me a windows fan boy im not i dual boot my desktop with windows 7 ubuntu 11.04 and backtrack 4 and my netbook with windows xp and ubuntu 10.10 i dont have.

I just never felt osx worked very well for my needs and seams an expensive way to use windows so sold a friend it.

Ash

Edited by acpsd775 (Sat 25-Jun-11 12:20:51)

You can get Windows 7 cheap yes, but that'll be some OEM copy or similar.

Full retail box is over £100:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/microsoft-windows-7-ho...

As for the Mac hardware, so what? I actually sold and replaced about two or three machines with one when I bought my Mac pro years ago. Simply because Windows totally sucked at running music software unless I customised the OS to the point of being unusable for a daily OS.

I ran a Linux machine for the Internet as the above music PC was bare bones and I didn't want to screw up my work with a virus.

If you've ever tried to compose music with Windows you'll know how much a killer of creativity it is. Which is probably why Macs are so popular in the music industry. I saw Erasure live last night, guess what Vince Clarke was using? A Macbook Pro of course. The guy is a legend in the electronic music world and he wouldn't be using something that didn't work well (he famously stopped using MIDI as he claimed it wasn't as good as CV).

I now have a Macbook Pro, Mac Pro and Mac Mini. I have few or zero technical issues and so I don't have to spend hours fixing things, which when you have a mother with a serious illness is a god send.

In reply to a post by gilesjuk:

You can get Windows 7 cheap yes, but that'll be some OEM copy or similar.

Full retail box is over £100:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/microsoft-windows-7-ho...

As for the Mac hardware, so what? I actually sold and replaced about two or three machines with one when I bought my Mac pro years ago. Simply because Windows totally sucked at running music software unless I customised the OS to the point of being unusable for a daily OS.

I ran a Linux machine for the Internet as the above music PC was bare bones and I didn't want to screw up my work with a virus.

If you've ever tried to compose music with Windows you'll know how much a killer of creativity it is. Which is probably why Macs are so popular in the music industry. I saw Erasure live last night, guess what Vince Clarke was using? A Macbook Pro of course. The guy is a legend in the electronic music world and he wouldn't be using something that didn't work well (he famously stopped using MIDI as he claimed it wasn't as good as CV).

I now have a Macbook Pro, Mac Pro and Mac Mini. I have few or zero technical issues and so I don't have to spend hours fixing things, which when you have a mother with a serious illness is a god send.

You make some good points there macs are very good for music and graphical design.

But id just like to say ive never one had a virus in 11 years of using computers and also never had to spend hours sorting my pc out (even with vista). I have in the past had to sort some family members pc out but basically they insist on not bothering with any security software and going on the dodgiest sites available to the net. But in the end ive also had to sort a mac out for a friend who got infected there not immune as jobbs likes every one to think just my 2 cents.

Ash

I've not had viruses either. But there's always a risk of them and the risk is generally greater on Windows still.

I've been screwed by Microsoft and their poor QA before now. Back in Windows 2000 days, I installed a newer version of Windows Media player that had built in CD burning capabilities, but it screwed up burning of CDs in every other application.

In the end (after burning 20 or so duds) I found a fix and it required editing the registry to revert the change Windows Media Player had made.

Life is too short to have to deal with such bs. I have too much to do and just want a computer that I can switch on and off. Mac with OSX is the closest to that dream and I don't care if it costs more as a result, perhaps the higher price will at least mean better paid engineers and testers who do a better job?

Much of my possessions are ordinary. I could cycle around on a £60 bike from ASDA but I have something pretty special instead.

Edited by deleted (Sat 25-Jun-11 12:47:13)

No. That was the full retail copy. It was an introductory price, but if you're sensible you go for the best price you can get.

And it was the full version, installable on a bare PC, not an upgrade.

In reply to a post by gilesjuk:

You can get Windows 7 cheap yes, but that'll be some OEM copy or similar.

Full retail box is over £100:

What's the difference between oem and full? What version is a mac upgrade closest too? I'd say it's merely an oem upgrade disk.

The difference is the OEM version has quite a few restrictions. Firstly it can only be supplied with a new computer.

Secondly, you are not allowed to transfer the OS to another computer.

http://www.networkclue.com/os/Windows/licensing/inde...

"An OEM license only allows you to use the software on the specific computer it came with. In other words, when that computer is old and slow and it is time to throw it away, that license must legally be thrown away as well."

Well such offers are only a recent thing with Microsoft, probably because they knew they had to make Win7 a success after Vista was hated so much.

Even a discounted Windows is still more expensive than OSX.

£45 for a full copy, complete with media, as opposed to £25 for an upgrade that you have to download? It's not a significant difference IMO.

I don't see cost of the OS as being too significant in either case. (If it really is that critical then go for Linux or FreeBSD.)

Can you transfer your OS X Lion upgrade to a new computer? Genuine question - I don't know the answer.

If you share the same Apple Store login on multiple computers then you're fine.

If you have different Apple Store IDs on all your computer then you need to buy more than once.

The point is people talk about Apple being expensive. They really aren't when it comes to software.

Sure, the hardware costs a bit more. But it also holds its price when sold second hand.

When I talk about Apple being expensive I certainly mean the hardware. I don't really buy much software apart from the OS (well, a few games, but there aren't OS X equivalents of them) as I use open-source stuff or other free offerings. So it's only the hardware costs that really matter to me.

Everyone has their price they are willing to pay. If you aren't willing to pay that price then don't, it's a simple as that.

I don't want anyone telling me I am being stupid spending more money on something when I am completely happy with it. I use a PC with Windows 7 at work and while it does the job there's still plenty of things that annoy me.

It is that simple. And we are just giving our views, as requested by the OP. No-one is trying to tell you that your decision is right or wrong. It's right for you, but may not be for the OP.

Yes, but there are so many people on here always questioning our judgement and just calling Apple owners fanboys as if we blindly buy Apple products that don't do what we want.

In reply to a post by Desmond:

You are looking at this from a bizarre perspective. If your software is blue screening Windows 7 on a bare metal PC then it will still blue screen Windows 7 in VmWare/Parallels/VirtualBox! ...

It's (probably) not the same emulated "hardware" under VMware etc. so that doesn't follow.

My perspective was that I was led to believe that OSX is inherently more stable than Windows, Macs are more reliable than PCs and my blue-screen problem is down to a quirk in the OS or a driver and not in my application software. Shifting the applications to a Mac should therefore resolve the stability problem. This was the opinion I was being given. From the replies here it looks as if this opinion also has a reliability problem

This was the opinion I was being given.

By whom?

In reply to a post by AEP:

The best rule to always follow is if it ain't broke and no one has given a compelling reason to change things

A good rule in general. But in this case it is broke, so testing with updated drivers is a logical trouble-shooting step. Trouble-shooting computer problems is not rocket science, just a matter of methodical testing.

I use the rule: If it ain't broke, tweak it - and if it IS broke, there is no harm trying a tweak anyway. All tweaks are fully reversable and do no physical harm ever. They merely just optimise the settings that are already there.

Love your Tweaks.

In my experience they are because you don't need to load many drivers. Third party drivers create much of the problem with Windows.

But no OS can work around a hardware fault without having RAID or something.

In my experience they are because you don't need to load many drivers.

You have to load just as many drivers on a Mac as on a PC. Each bit of hardware needs a driver to interface with the OS; there's no magic about a Mac that means it doesn't need drivers for hardware.

But it's true that on a Mac you have a very limited choice of hardware, basically what Apple will allow you to have, and hence a very limited set of drivers to choose from. Again, it's all a matter of what you want. If you want a fairly fixed system then a Mac is a fine (if rather expensive) choice. If you want to be able to upgrade, for example, a graphics card to one of your choice then a PC is a better choice.

I suspect the difficulty of upgrading Macs explains why so many people tend to get excited when a new product line comes out from them. If I need a bit more power from my PC I just buy a new graphics card, a new processor, whatever. It's a continuouis process; I don't need to buy a whole new PC every year or so.

Macs and PCs are both fine choices - horses for courses. But the OP's motives for considering a Mac don't hold water.

The point i was making is much of the drivers in use have been tested by Apple and ship with the OS.

With Windows you tend to need third party drivers which are often variable in quality.

The problem with Microsoft's drivers is while they are stable, they often only implement the bare minimum. In the past I've had a graphics card with A/V out and the Microsoft driver didn't support it.

Edited by deleted (Sun 26-Jun-11 12:29:04)

The point i was making is much of the drivers in use have been tested by Apple and ship with the OS.

That is true. Becasue such a limited range of hardware is supported Apple can easily test all drivers.

With Windows you tend to need third party drivers which are often variable in quality.

I can see that you don't have much experience of Windows 7. There are a huge number of Microsoft signed drivers that ship with the OS or are available from manufacturers. And you have the choice of a much wider range of hardware.

For those who need their hands holding and are happy with a limited choice of hardware a Mac is a fine choice. For those who want a lot more flexibility, or are happy to tweak things, then a PC is the logical choice. Both have their markets.

You see, I don't get the understanding that to be competent with computers means you need to use Windows and suffer all the complexity of pratting about with drivers and all the other inherent problems with custom built hardware

I've done all of that, I've done electronics, built my own hardware, hacked hardware, built custom cables, written software, written plugins and so on.

I want an easy life now, i have responsibilities that take up my time, I want to have a social life. Not spend my time fixing up computers and Windows problems.

Weird, I don't have any windows problems.

That's fine. you're just the sort of person that Macs are aimed at.

Computers are no longer a hobby of mine, they are just an appliance. I have 5 or so bicycles to tinker with instead.

And yet, you, this forum, talking about computers.

As mentioned further up the thread. I got burned with Windows a few times and not because of doing anything out of the ordinary, just installing Microsoft software.

A few years ago I worked at a consultancy and they had an Intranet site, the admin posted that sometimes you'll get an error when posting, just try again. My manager posted that this was typical Microsoft quality software and to a point it is true, people are very accepting of workarounds and little rituals you have to do to keep it running well.

Microsoft have over the years reduced the cost of computing but also lowered the quality of it as well.

That's fine. you are just the sort of person that Macs are made for.

So? it's very easy to get drawn into arguments.

There seems to be a lot of people who like to come into this forum and be critical of peoples decisions on what they buy, why? I don't tell you what to do or what to run. I just point out why Windows and commodity hardware aren't right for me.

No-one is criticising your choice of computer. I certainly haven't done so. But it just doesn't seem to be the best choice for the OP.

I disagree with what you say, but why does it worry you so? You don't like Microsoft software. Fine, don't use it.

Which I never said it was. i said get to the bottom of the problem, be it hardware or driver/OS configuration.

If someone wants to run Windows software then a Mac isn't really the best option.

The resale value of a Mac goes some way to offsetting the extra expense of initial purchase. The price you paid for your laptop I could get double for for my 4 year old Macbook Pro. Hell when my Mac is twice it's age it will still fetch the value of yours new as long as it's working. It's likely that the trackpad and screen is superior to the ones on your laptop, the GPU doesn't steal memory, the processor was brand-new just out when I got this laptop and in reality to have bought it stand-alone would have cost a couple of hundred quid. The keyboard is top notch and it has never taken longer than a minute to boot.

I'll just add the that in my experience, the people who prefer PC's to Macs tend to be nerds, geeks. People sans-girlfriends. People with Macs probably tend to 'get out' more and the less time they have to spend messing about with their computers the better.

PCs are only better value if you look at the raw figures, it's like comparing single-ply toilet paper to double and saying the former is better value. But then I wouldn't want to get po0 on my fingers.

You may be right about second-hand value which is important if you change your computer frequently. But I'll just run my laptop into the ground, same as I do with a car. So the second-hand value of my PCs is of no interest to me.

I think you should reconsider the wisdom of your later remarks. Once you start to characterise a particular group of computer users as "sans girlfriends", you begin to sound like a brainless fanboi. I'm sure that you're not like that. Let's stick to the pros and cons of the hardware and software rather than resorting to classroom taunts.

The same goes for your last sentence; it makes you look just a little silly.

Post deleted by billford

Let's keep personal antipathies out of the discussion please, they contribute nothing.

MacBook Pro gaming isn't that good, but the machine [apart from 1 glich] has been flawless for me. I love it.

OS X has been good too. NO viruses/malware, and it is very re-assuring to have. The illuminated keyboard is flawless, beautiful, and the best ever imho.

I would love the new one but this one is perfect. Darn. IF a Win lappy was as good, I'd go buy one - especially for gaming - but never mind. I've had this now for around 15 months, and do not regret it one bit.

It was the extremely excellent, patient, friendly AppleCare staff that moved me to buy one - This superb forum too. Thanks everyone, you ALL have made it worthwhile.



ADDED: There is the Steam summer sale on just now - Have set the power for performance as it's on until the 10th.

Some good Mac/PC games games going cheap!

Edited by deleted (Sun 03-Jul-11 23:38:29)