Are Three using O2 for 4g?

I just called O2 for my PAC code so that I could switch to sim only on three for £18pm 12month contact. I was told that Three use O2 for 4g and O2 get priority on usage, in the end I was offered a £24 contact reduced to £19pm 12 month and 5gb data. My average is 230mb but I have a Iphone 6+ and plan to use a bit more now.

I thought Three used EE network for 4g.

Three use their own network for 4G, they don't use O2's or EE's

Lets be clear 3 do not use o2s network for their 4G. There have been talks about a merger with 3 and o2 but that's not in place right now.

EE are part of a network called MBNL which is a joint venture between EE and 3. This DOES NOT mean that EE and 3 have the same reception, they do not. It simply means that 3 often put their transmitters on the same physical mast that EE will also use. Often EE will be 10 metres higher up on that mast, with 4 transmitters pointing in all directions whereas 3 will be 10 metres lower, with just the 1 transmitter on that mast. ALSO you often find that EE have an output power of 30+ db whereas 3 are only outputting at 18db. So generally this is why EE has better coverage than 3. YES sharing same physical masts. Very different setups. It can work the other way around ofcourse.

Also plenty of orange sites do not have a 3 transmitter on them.

In terms of the o2 and 3 merger, that would be complicated as o2 and vodafone are in a joint venture called Cornerstone. This is where o2 and vodafone share masts like EE and 3 do.
So having an agreement for 3 to merge with o2 would confuse the MBNL and cornerstone relationships and is unlikely.

Hope I helped

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 23-Sep-14 13:11:06)

Thanks for the info.

Why would the guy at O2 just make us a load of BS on a recorded call? Probably to keep me as a customer but still.

Sales ... they always speak out of their ass and hope that the customer on the other end of the line doesn't know better.

He probably heard it from somewhere and believed it himself. I think he is confused. In IRELAND 3 and o2 did merger but NOT in the UK. That's probably where he got this from.

Cornerstone agreement
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/voda...

MBNL agreement
http://mbnl.co.uk/

News article confirming 3 isn't merging with O2-UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/medi...

The key point to note is that whilst Vodafone and O2 share the same infrastructure and EE and 3 share the same infrastructure (that is the masts), the individual networks install their own transmitters onto the physical mast, they choose how many transmitters to put on that mast, they choose the angle of those transmitters, the power output of those transmitters and also whether to use every mast available to them. So the networks still end up very different. 3 customers cannot connect to an EE signal, they connect to a 3 signal (often on the same mast as an EE transmitter) but this signal can be worlds apart from the other network. Same applied to o2 and vodafone, a vodafone customer does not use an o2 signal. The agreements are literally just sharing the same sites.

See this mast here: http://bristolbulletinblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/...

There may be an agreement for EE and 3 to use this mast. Say that EE is right at the top and 3 is using the bottom set of transmitters, generally the EE signal will be better.

So those that say we only really have 2 networks are wrong. Plenty of people nowadays are saying EE and 3 signal will mirror one another and o2 and vodafone will also. Not true

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 23-Sep-14 13:42:10)

In reply to a post by furman:

I just called O2 for my PAC code so that I could switch to sim only on three for £18pm 12month contact. I was told that Three use O2 for 4g and O2 get priority on usage, in the end I was offered a £24 contact reduced to £19pm 12 month and 5gb data. My average is 230mb but I have a Iphone 6+ and plan to use a bit more now.

You could complain to Three head office about being told complete lies by their call centre, and ask to be released from your contract.

Three has more spectrum for 4G than o2 has bought and Three has a lot less customers, so should have better performance.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

So those that say we only really have 2 networks are wrong. Plenty of people nowadays are saying EE and 3 signal will mirror one another and o2 and vodafone will also. Not true

Exactly. The fact that the two MBNL 3G networks have a lot of sharing going on doesn't mean they are the same, and for 4G they're both a lot different. The two Cornerstone networks are quite different for both 3G and 4G, and its really just a physical site share.

Where it will help is motorways where hopefully we won't need to see 4 towers next to each other

The guy I spoke to at O2 will be calling me in a few days to find out how I found the 4g service, I will ask him if it is in fact O2 sharing with three or as he said the other way around. So far, Three 4g speeds have been pretty poor in NW London, my O2 3G speeds were higher. Also I never get 4g in my house with Three, waiting for O2 sim to compare.

In reply to a post by furman:

The guy I spoke to at O2 will be calling me in a few days to find out how I found the 4g service, I will ask him if it is in fact O2 sharing with three or as he said the other way around. So far, Three 4g speeds have been pretty poor in NW London, my O2 3G speeds were higher. Also I never get 4g in my house with Three, waiting for O2 sim to compare.

Three is slowest to roll out 4G. I find Three 3G to be easily twice as good as O2 3G but that is outside London. Never seen any O2 4G outside the M25. In the longer term O2 has the least spectrum but most users, so will probably have slowest 4G.

It all depends where you need it to work, in reality you should try a prepay SIM from all the networks in all the areas you need the phone to work.

funny enough three 3g has improved at my home now, I was able to tether to pc (when FTTC was down) and use youtube HD, browsing was also reasonable. Downloading email didnt make everything else not work, so clearly they did something that has improved it here.

I tried O2 for a few days, speeds were pretty good 15mb+ outside the house and work. I tried Three, much slower upload speed and slower download speed. Where I may need tethering most at my warehouse Three easily outperformed O2, 3G and 4G. In the end I cancelled my O2 contract and signed up with Three.

Thanks for this useful info. When i was with Three a few years ago, if there was no coverage (eg rural areas) the phone automatically went to Orange 2G network, if available in that location. Is this roaming agreement with Orange/EE still in place or is it a case of you either get a Three signal (3G) or nothing at all? Unfortunately 4G is still a wet dream here in the Scottish Highlands......

So 3 has never had access to the entire orange network. In some areas where 3 knew they had no coverage they had an agreement to share the Orange signal in those areas only and it was only a 2g share usually without working data.

Nowadays that agreements been removed in 99.999% of cases only remaining in a very very minority of areas. Perhaps it's gone all together now though... In actual fact quite a few remote areas were cut off entirely as 3 removed the Orange agreement but have no signal in that area still. My parents address included.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Nowadays that agreements been removed in 99.999% of cases only remaining in a very very minority of areas. Perhaps it's gone all together now though... In actual fact quite a few remote areas were cut off entirely as 3 removed the Orange agreement but have no signal in that area still. My parents address included.

I assume 3 looked at the costs of the agreement, and might have decided that so few people were using it that they could save money - and invest in growing the 3G network.

In theory if EE now have 3G signal in an area, it should be in 90% of cases from an MBNL managed mast - which should, in theory, give both networks signal. However as we know there are still quite a few areas with Orange only masts left, and even if the local mast is right, it may not have the coverage needed without 2G.

Think my phone would still roam onto 2g at my parent's house about 2 months ago on Three. That was the only place I've seen it.

The coverage for all of them, bar Vodafone, is equally poor there though. I'll keep an eye on it the next time I'm visiting.

EE 2G on Three is still very much available.

My phone connects to it daily.

I've noticed that a lot regarding power levels on Three.

Why don't they just ramp them up??

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

EE 2G on Three is still very much available.

Only in very limited areas sadly, and I think only old Orange masts, not the former T-Mobile masts.

Around here all the Orange only masts have been turned off, but we never had any Orange 2G fallback.

I'm in a Three / EE 4G area and when I go deep inside the building at work it drops back to 2G (no data).

Maybe I am one of the lucky ones. Shame they don't provide GPRS and Edge on 2G.

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

I'm in a Three / EE 4G area and when I go deep inside the building at work it drops back to 2G (no data). Maybe I am one of the lucky ones. Shame they don't provide GPRS and Edge on 2G.

That is surprising.

In Hampshire and Sussex the old 2G fallback has been removed, so indoors I sometimes lose 3G signal on my Moto G.

However in my customer site in Scotland there is only low signal Three 3G by the main road, as soon as you go into the car park it vanishes, but 2G appears with no data. Here EE has 2G only with GPRS. Its very remote

Wish they did , I can get O2 3G in all the black spots for 3 in this area.

In reply to a post by furman:

I just called O2 for my PAC code so that I could switch to sim only on three for £18pm 12month contact. I was told that Three use O2 for 4g and O2 get priority on usage

Enjoy having practically no 4G coverage then. Because if that was true, how come Three have 4G coverage in an awful lot of places whereas O2 has coverage in barely any places. It's the biggest load of rubbish since the Amstrad E-Mailer.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

EE are part of a network called MBNL which is a joint venture between EE and 3. This DOES NOT mean that EE and 3 have the same reception, they do not. It simply means that 3 often put their transmitters on the same physical mast that EE will also use. Often EE will be 10 metres higher up on that mast, with 4 transmitters pointing in all directions whereas 3 will be 10 metres lower, with just the 1 transmitter on that mast. ALSO you often find that EE have an output power of 30+ db whereas 3 are only outputting at 18db. So generally this is why EE has better coverage than 3. YES sharing same physical masts. Very different setups. It can work the other way around of course.

That's also an amusing but not accurate report. They have a RAN sharing agreement through MBNL - Three are not consistently given second best compared to EE, it's an equal venture and they both benefit mutually.

And while we're at it, they *ALSO* share 4G as well in a large number of areas - the deal was expanded. Just to clear up the other nonsense.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

So those that say we only really have 2 networks are wrong. Plenty of people nowadays are saying EE and 3 signal will mirror one another and o2 and vodafone will also. Not true

Exactly. The fact that the two MBNL 3G networks have a lot of sharing going on doesn't mean they are the same, and for 4G they're both a lot different. The two Cornerstone networks are quite different for both 3G and 4G, and its really just a physical site share.

It's significantly more complex than people like to make out.

For 4G, they share masts, backhaul etc - very sensible as the latter will be expensive as usage is drive upwards, but they install the antennas, equipment and so on independently - effectively think of it as them sharing the "connectivity" to the site - whereas they connect up whatever they want after that. There is thus in the 4G share potential for "different heights" although there is more to the theory on height vs coverage than has been made out. This is less cost effective, but means they have more freedom.

For 3G, they share base stations and antennas. - so the theory that three are located below at a lower output is total rubbish because they have the same ones - and they share spectrum, and so on as part of that - saves lots more money but means both networks effectively have to work with each other very closely.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Three is slowest to roll out 4G. I find Three 3G to be easily twice as good as O2 3G but that is outside London. Never seen any O2 4G outside the M25. In the longer term O2 has the least spectrum but most users, so will probably have slowest 4G.

Have you looked at coverage maps recently? In the real world, EE has got the largest coverage (they had a big head start), Three have the next biggest coverage, O2 and Vodafone are so far behind it is laughable.

O2 however should have wide coverage soon enough (speeds another matter) because it has an obligation to do so.

In reply to a post by therioman:

It's significantly more complex than people like to make out.

For 4G, they share masts, backhaul etc - very sensible as the latter will be expensive as usage is drive upwards, but they install the antennas, equipment and so on independently - effectively think of it as them sharing the "connectivity" to the site - whereas they connect up whatever they want after that. There is thus in the 4G share potential for "different heights" although there is more to the theory on height vs coverage than has been made out. This is less cost effective, but means they have more freedom.

For 3G, they share base stations and antennas. - so the theory that three are located below at a lower output is total rubbish because they have the same ones - and they share spectrum, and so on as part of that - saves lots more money but means both networks effectively have to work with each other very closely.

Interesting - I wondered as on MBNL masts near me you get quite different coverage on 3 and EE - and other forums I've read info that 3 and EE have had separate 3G antenna in some locations. Maybe these pre-date the MBNL agreement?

As always its hard to get reliable info on forums

In reply to a post by therioman:

Have you looked at coverage maps recently? In the real world, EE has got the largest coverage (they had a big head start), Three have the next biggest coverage, O2 and Vodafone are so far behind it is laughable.

O2 however should have wide coverage soon enough (speeds another matter) because it has an obligation to do so.

Yes regularly looking EE had a nice head start, and also using the same frequency as their 2G meant less hassle on spectrum planning I assume. Three are making good progress but its assumed their big jump will come when they roll out 800mhz. Vodafone has jumped up a large amount in my area recently but O2 hasn't - but they are working in different areas of the country I think.

I reckon most "delays" are due to getting increased backhaul online, given how long it takes to buy a line from a telco into a building in a town centre, it must be worse into many mast sites !

I wont argue with you but I will say that MBNL does not mean that EE and 3 have identical 3G coverage as you suggest. If this was the case I would be overjoyed with my network 3 mobile and I am not.

The best way to describe the agreement is like I have already said, they share a mast & backhaul but their antennas are independent. The 4G roll out makes them even more different.

MBNL was an agreement between T-Mobile and 3. The T-mobile and 3 signal is identical, they share the same equipment, same transmitters, same towers, same backhaul.

However Orange didn't join MBNL for numerous years. As such there are plenty of transmitters that are Orange transmitting only, without a 3 signal being transmitted from them.

There are even cases of an Orange transmitter on the SAME mast as a T-Mobile and 3 transmitter and the orange transmitter can be higher up with a higher output power. As part of network optimisation this is becoming rare but there are still plenty of masts which are literally only broadcasting an orange signal.

So no, EE and 3 are not identical.
Perhaps 3 and T-Mobile are close to identical but EE also uses Orange. Before Orange and T-Mobile began sharing signals, those of us who had Orange will know that it was already pretty good without the T-Mobile sharing. Orange sites are often very well placed, commonly on pilons for instance at 40m+ in height.

So yes, T-mobile and 3 are the same height, same transmitter. EE and 3, not the same, due to Orange.

In terms of the output power, that can vary. This is because the T-Mobile 2G signal is often a much higher output power than the shared output for 3G & T-Mobile broadcasts both 2G and 3G. So T-Mobile will go further on 2G.

It's very much present over Shropshire too. On the train it will frequently drop to 2G.

It's quite annoying on the iPhone as the iMessage system stacks the messages and pauses delivery for a few minutes, then sends them as an SMS. Outbound it's not a problem as you can override it but inbound it is in the hands of the sender.

I tried a Vodafone 4G sim the other day in my 5S and was pleasantly surprised at their coverage. They've got the majority of the West Midlands covered up to the eastern edge of Wolverhampton.

Still a fair bit behind EE but ahead of Three.

It's still a data connection though which allow an iMessage or whats app to be sent.

It'll call and SMS, that's about it.

The network agreement with Orange / EE is not cost effective for Three at all. Hence why they limit it and have turned it off.

In reply to a post by Benjanyan:

Think my phone would still roam onto 2g at my parent's house about 2 months ago on Three. That was the only place I've seen it.

The coverage for all of them, bar Vodafone, is equally poor there though. I'll keep an eye on it the next time I'm visiting.

http://puu.sh/cgRHv/070a523aa7.png

In reply to a post by Benjanyan:

http://puu.sh/cgRHv/070a523aa7.png

It shows "state: disconnected" ? Can you actually make and receive calls and SMS ?

I'm not actually there anymore but I have in the past. I believe it's referring to internet connectivity over the mobile network.

In reply to a post by Benjanyan:

I'm not actually there anymore but I have in the past. I believe it's referring to internet connectivity over the mobile network.

Ok, that could just be because you were on WiFi.