Is EE 4G still data only?

Hi,
Just noticed that EE 4G now covers Inverness and according to their checker, my IV2 postcode has continuous 4G coverage. However last time i popped a EE PAYG sim in my phone (2 months ago) I could only get a 2G signal inside & outside my property. So assuming EE 4G is now available in my property, would data use 4G and voice use 2G? Will EE (& other operators) ever use 4G for voice? From experience voice over 2G is pants and to get anything like crystal clear land-line call quality on a mobile, you need 3G minimum.

There are others here in a better position to offer properly informed comment, though, as far as I am aware, none of the UK networks are offering VoLTE (4G voice) just yet.

The problem is that VoLTE works in a very different way to 2G and 3G voice. The 4G LTE network is pure IP with no legacy circuit switched calls, so VoLTE is somewhat similar to running VoIP over the Internet. The network infrastructure requirements for VoLTE are rather different to legacy circuit switched calls and some of the current crop of 4G handsets lack proper firmware support for VoLTE. Some handsets supporting VoLTE lack support for SRVCC, which allows a call started on VoLTE to switch to 3G or 2G voice mid call if you move out of 4G coverage.

With all this complexity, it's not surprising that the networks chose to launch 4G service with voice calls falling back to the 3G and 2G networks. The commercial driver for 4G service at launch was data.


In time, VoLTE will arrive as the networks modernise their infrastructure and the proportion of subscribers with VoLTE capable handsets increases. As you say, 2G voice quality is increasingly unacceptable to the 2015 consumer, also it can be inconvenient to lose high speed data during a voice call because your phone has fallen back to the 3G or 2G networks. Eventually, the network operators will want to get rid of the 2G network in areas of good quality 4G coverage, but this is unlikely to be possible without VoLTE considering how much 3G service is on 2.1GHz with its relatively poor building penetration.

My understanding is that EE are likely to launch VoLTE early this year, though I don't know exactly when.

All networks will be data only for a long time I think

give it another 2 years.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

From experience voice over 2G is pants and to get anything like crystal clear land-line call quality on a mobile, you need 3G minimum.

Yes, 4G data with 2G voice is very common, CSFB (circuit switched fall back) makes this possible. SMS texting goes over 4G.

EE's latest big publication (Signalling the Future) briefing state they will launch VoLTE - Voice over LTE - (4G) this year.

http://ee.co.uk/content/dam/everything-everywhere/Ne...

2G voice calling is usually okay on EE and Vodafone, equal to a land line. On 3G, EE and Vodafone and Three offer HD Voice but only when calling someone on the same network. HD voice is as clear as Apple Facetime Audio or most skype calls. Voice over LTE is supposed to be the same but bring inter-network operation.

Edited by jchamier (Mon 02-Mar-15 06:55:07)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Hi,
Just noticed that EE 4G now covers Inverness and according to their checker, my IV2 postcode has continuous 4G coverage. However last time i popped a EE PAYG sim in my phone (2 months ago) I could only get a 2G signal inside & outside my property. So assuming EE 4G is now available in my property, would data use 4G and voice use 2G? Will EE (& other operators) ever use 4G for voice? From experience voice over 2G is pants and to get anything like crystal clear land-line call quality on a mobile, you need 3G minimum.

If you are happy to share you postcode with me I can take a closer look at serving cells etc...?
2G on all networks is not equal, O2 use a half rate codec for 2G voice for capacity reasons, Vodafone use it in selective areas, EE use a full rate codec.

As mentioned in other posts EE (and now VF) use the HD-Voice codec on the 3G networks but both calling parties have to be on 3G and the same operator.

When any operator launches VoLTE they will use the HD-Voice codec then no transcoding will be required between 4G and 3G covered calling parties.

VoLTE is coming but Wifi Calling will come first...

In reply to a post by David_W:

There are others here in a better position to offer properly informed comment, though, as far as I am aware, none of the UK networks are offering VoLTE (4G voice) just yet.

The problem is that VoLTE works in a very different way to 2G and 3G voice. The 4G LTE network is pure IP with no legacy circuit switched calls, so VoLTE is somewhat similar to running VoIP over the Internet. The network infrastructure requirements for VoLTE are rather different to legacy circuit switched calls and some of the current crop of 4G handsets lack proper firmware support for VoLTE. Some handsets supporting VoLTE lack support for SRVCC, which allows a call started on VoLTE to switch to 3G or 2G voice mid call if you move out of 4G coverage.

With all this complexity, it's not surprising that the networks chose to launch 4G service with voice calls falling back to the 3G and 2G networks. The commercial driver for 4G service at launch was data.


In time, VoLTE will arrive as the networks modernise their infrastructure and the proportion of subscribers with VoLTE capable handsets increases. As you say, 2G voice quality is increasingly unacceptable to the 2015 consumer, also it can be inconvenient to lose high speed data during a voice call because your phone has fallen back to the 3G or 2G networks. Eventually, the network operators will want to get rid of the 2G network in areas of good quality 4G coverage, but this is unlikely to be possible without VoLTE considering how much 3G service is on 2.1GHz with its relatively poor building penetration.

My understanding is that EE are likely to launch VoLTE early this year, though I don't know exactly when.

SRVCC is painful and difficult, it is better to push 4G coverage to be greater than that of 2G and don't provide any level of fall back....
2G network has another 20 years left in it, the spectrum used may decrease but a lot of M2M type services rely on this, solid base layer and have no need for high bandwidth services.
Expect the 3G network to cease before that of 2G, 4G is a much better data layer and a much better blend of spectrum.

There is consideration to use HD-Voice on the 2G stack but it would be more spectrally efficient to move 10Mhz of spectrum from 2G to 4G to shift the capacity.

In reply to a post by bookey:

If you are happy to share you postcode with me I can take a closer look at serving cells etc...?
2G on all networks is not equal, O2 use a half rate codec for 2G voice for capacity reasons, Vodafone use it in selective areas, EE use a full rate codec.

As mentioned in other posts EE (and now VF) use the HD-Voice codec on the 3G networks but both calling parties have to be on 3G and the same operator.

When any operator launches VoLTE they will use the HD-Voice codec then no transcoding will be required between 4G and 3G covered calling parties.

VoLTE is coming but Wifi Calling will come first...

Thanks, my postcode is IV2 5FJ its a semi-rural location. Other than Three, none of the networks give me a solid 2G/3G signal in my home - signals fluctuate wildly depending which room i'm in and calls quite often cut off. Problem with Three is that i only get 1-2 bars of 3G signal which eats up my phone battery pretty fast. So i'm with Vodafone and using their Sure Signal 3G transmitter and on the whole it works very well, though it can be temperamental at times. So hopefully if/when EE implement voice over 4G in my postcode I might consider moving to them so that i can stop faffing around with 3G transmitters. Mobile data isn't important at home since i have wifi.

Edited by deleted (Mon 02-Mar-15 12:56:00)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Thanks, my postcode is IV2 5FJ its a semi-rural location. Other than Three, none of the networks give me a solid 2G/3G signal in my home - signals fluctuate wildly depending which room i'm in and calls quite often cut off. Problem with Three is that i only get 1-2 bars of 3G signal which eats up my phone battery pretty fast. So i'm with Vodafone and using their Sure Signal 3G transmitter and on the whole it works very well, though it can be temperamental at times. So hopefully if/when EE implement voice over 4G in my postcode I might consider moving to them so that i can stop faffing around with 3G transmitters. Mobile data isn't important at home since i have wifi.

That's a little odd, as EE and Three share the same antenna heads for 3G service, hence I would expect similar performance of the RF.
The 4G EE signal you are picking up is from a tall building in the center of Inverness located off Friar St, aka a fair distance away.

Another 4G planned cell between the river and Culduthel, but that won't benefit you. EE have your serving cell at Ashton Farm, when that goes live for 4G services you will have more stable indoor coverage but we are missing a trick here...

Wifi calling is VoLTE but over the wifi layer, so if its to get better call service in your house, just switch to a 4G enabler + wifi calling handset once its launched and you can use your fibre broadband as your backhaul.

In reply to a post by bookey:

Wifi calling is VoLTE but over the wifi layer, so if its to get better call service in your house, just switch to a 4G enabler + wifi calling handset once its launched and you can use your fibre broadband as your backhaul.

Still waiting for this I noticed the web page has been updated to mention the new Samsung Galaxy S6 and the Microsoft Lumia phones, but no mention of iPhones.
http://ee.co.uk/ee-and-me/network/wifi-calling

Don't worry, these iPhones will support Wifi Calling when launched
5C
5S
6
6+

could not resist, the nokia phones had WIFI calling 4-5 years ago.... leap frog technology between vendors or what

In reply to a post by iand:

could not resist, the nokia phones had WIFI calling 4-5 years ago.... leap frog technology between vendors or what

Blackberry had UMA on Orange years ago, but that never took off either.

WiFi calling is quite different, and seamless. I have friends on T-Mobile USA who have had it a while and its very impressive when you see it working.

Anything that gets rid of the need for a femto cell like the Vodafone SureSignal is a good move in my book.

In reply to a post by bookey:

Don't worry, these iPhones will support Wifi Calling when launched
5C
5S
6
6+

Excellent news

I was hoping this thread would benefit from your wisdom, bookey - you were the person I had in mind when I made the comment about "others ... in a better position to offer properly informed comment".

In reply to a post by bookey:

SRVCC is painful and difficult, it is better to push 4G coverage to be greater than that of 2G and don't provide any level of fall back....

Every time I've read something about SRVCC, it's accompanied by commentary that amounts to "you really don't want to go there". It sounds so difficult to get right that I can see the advantages of building a 4G network that makes it unnecessary.

In reply to a post by bookey:

2G network has another 20 years left in it, the spectrum used may decrease but a lot of M2M type services rely on this, solid base layer and have no need for high bandwidth services.
Expect the 3G network to cease before that of 2G, 4G is a much better data layer and a much better blend of spectrum.

There is consideration to use HD-Voice on the 2G stack but it would be more spectrally efficient to move 10Mhz of spectrum from 2G to 4G to shift the capacity.

My comments about 2G were from the perspective of phone and mobile broadband users. I long for the day when I can get better than a 2G signal everywhere I use my devices. As things stand, there is no network that currently offers better than 2G service in all the locations I visit regularly, so I work round this by carrying a 4G phone on one network and a 4G Wi-Fi hotspot on another.

Once the networks reach the point of being able to service phone and mobile broadband devices without needing 2G for fill in coverage and for circuit switched fallback in the absence of VoLTE, they can then run a data and SMS only 2G service in minimal bandwidth for M2M applications such as alarms and smart meters. M2M hardware is price sensitive and these devices only need to exchange small amounts of data, so GPRS or EDGE is more than sufficient. This sort of 2G voice switch off can happen gradually, with 2G voice service remaining in areas of coverage difficulty until the networks are content than the 4G coverage is sufficient.

2G technology will also live on in other contexts. I'm not sure whether Network Rail have completed their GSM-R network yet, which is replacing their legacy voice and data networks.


I can see the attraction of getting rid of the 3G air interface once 4G coverage and device support reach a suitable point. 3G is an "in between" technology that even in the DC-HSPA configuration doesn't offer the data capacity phone and mobile broadband users will increasingly demand, nor the coverage that 4G should eventually offer. 3G also has no advantages for M2M, which doesn't need the greater data bandwidth.

Ultimately, reusing the spectrum currently dedicated to the 3G air interface for 4G makes sense, not least as the majority of devices should support LTE-A carrier aggregation (allowing them to operate on multiple bands at once) by the time it becomes feasible to withdraw 3G.

Consumers and networks alike should derive maximum benefit from legacy free 4G service for phone and mobile broadband devices.


It is possible to discern a pathway towards the future in all this. Legacy air interfaces can only be discontinued once all users can move to newer technologies. There can be no 2G voice or 3G switch off whilst these air interfaces are still needed for circuit switched fallback, so VoLTE is an important element of moving towards a legacy free future.

funny enough for me 2G quality beats 3G in my tests.

Also after a discussion odigitalspy where I told everyone 2g has longer battery life I ran tests on my new phone, and indeed leaving the phone idle in 2g vs 3g/4g and using 2g for calls has much better battery drain. During idle the difference isnt huge maybe 30% or so, but during calls its massive about 300% more usage on 3g vs 2g. Obviously I have no data for call battery drain on 4g.

What 'i do on my phone but requires root access si use an app called intelli3g.

Default mode is 2g and the mode in use when phone is idle or using wifi is 2g. Likewise 2g used for calls, 2g also has the advantage it has much better coverage and signal stability.

If i enable data mode on the phone it will auto switch to 4g (or 3g if no 4g signal). If I disable data mode on the phone or if the screen is off for 15 minutes then it will auto switch back to 2g. The latter isnt perfect tho as that creates s situation where if the screen is off long enough data mode is still enabled but is in 2g, so my preferred behaviour would be for data mode to auto turn off after 15 minutes which would also trigger intelli3g to switch back to 2g as well.

interesting PDF

Speaks a story where someone from europe comes to the UK, is shocked by the standards we have here where we happy to sit on obsolete technology as long as it makes money and he pushed the company forward.

regarding wifi calling.

http://ee.co.uk/ee-and-me/network/wifi-calling

I find it hard to believe a new phone is required to use such tech, do you think it will work on all phones or will the carriers deliberately artificially limit it to brand new phones only?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I find it hard to believe a new phone is required to use such tech, do you think it will work on all phones or will the carriers deliberately artificially limit it to brand new phones only?

Can't see why that would be in the network's interests. However with no regular income stream, why would Samsung, HTC, Sony etc, create new firmware for phones 2 years or so old, such as the Galaxy S4, S3 LTE, and even S5, when the solution is to sell an S6 ?

I don't see EE or Vodafone paying Sony/Samsung/HTC to make them newer firmware either.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Speaks a story where someone from europe comes to the UK, is shocked by the standards we have here where we happy to sit on obsolete technology as long as it makes money and he pushed the company forward.

Yes, It was very encouraging!

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

regarding wifi calling.

http://ee.co.uk/ee-and-me/network/wifi-calling

I find it hard to believe a new phone is required to use such tech, do you think it will work on all phones or will the carriers deliberately artificially limit it to brand new phones only?

It's related to the chipset in the device, not the firmware. Some older handsets might be supported that have not yet been listed...

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

interesting PDF

Speaks a story where someone from europe comes to the UK, is shocked by the standards we have here where we happy to sit on obsolete technology as long as it makes money and he pushed the company forward.

It was only really the joining of Orange and T-Mobile that allowed any operator to have enough spectrum to move things forward, and a net result was that Ofcom sped up the 4G phase 1 auction.

I think 3 have the best solution. Vodafone want you to spend £100 on a special box.

http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Three_inTouch

Post deleted by therioman

In reply to a post by bookey:

2G on all networks is not equal, O2 use a half rate codec for 2G voice for capacity reasons, Vodafone use it in selective areas, EE use a full rate codec.

As mentioned in other posts EE (and now VF) use the HD-Voice codec on the 3G networks but both calling parties have to be on 3G and the same operator.

When any operator launches VoLTE they will use the HD-Voice codec then no transcoding will be required between 4G and 3G covered calling parties.

VoLTE is coming but Wifi Calling will come first...

I noticed this as soon as I joined and recently have spoken to aa family member who uses EE's network as well as I and the call quality was unbelievably good.

The fact that O2 uses a reduced quality codec for calls makes sense as when I was with O2 I found the calls to be "rubbish" quality.

I'm looking forward to Wi-Fi calling, though at the moment I haven't actually needed an alternative method of connection as EE's coverage seems more than efficient for holding a call and using data (both 3&4G)

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

I think 3 have the best solution. Vodafone want you to spend £100 on a special box.

Apps are a good stop gap, and cheaper than Vodafone SureSignal - but SureSignal is incredibly good (we have them in our office and we don't have WiFi).

However WiFi calling will beat the apps, as you won't have the problems that 3's InTouch and O2's TuGo apps have, separate SMS in the app, different ring tone in the app etc etc.

James

Interesting. It is a pity you can't get one box that handles all the networks!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I find it hard to believe a new phone is required to use such tech, do you think it will work on all phones or will the carriers deliberately artificially limit it to brand new phones only?

Can't see why that would be in the network's interests. However with no regular income stream, why would Samsung, HTC, Sony etc, create new firmware for phones 2 years or so old, such as the Galaxy S4, S3 LTE, and even S5, when the solution is to sell an S6 ?

I don't see EE or Vodafone paying Sony/Samsung/HTC to make them newer firmware either.

To answer my own question, android could do it 3 years ago, so if its new phones only, its a business decision by the carriers.

Since my phone is rooted it will be interesting if I can force the feature enabled like e.g. how tethering can be done via rooted phones when locked by carrier.

I would be a bit more sympathetic if they at least supported phones they been selling during 2014, but they listing the S6 as a requirement. No S5/S4.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Interesting. It is a pity you can't get one box that handles all the networks!

No network would sign up to that, to many spectrum issues, the box that will handle all networks is your wifi AP, when all mobile operators offer wifi calling.

In reply to a post by bookey:

VoLTE is coming but Wifi Calling will come first...

Wifi calling is now available on EE for some handsets, just text 'wificalling' to 150 to activate.

I believe its going live on 13th April for iphone 6 and 6+.

I just successfully did it on my s5 (not supported officially according to EE)