Three L-Band rollout

Three have today announced that they plan to roll out 1.4GHz L-Band Spectrum to the majority of their network to improve LTE performance and also refarm some 3G spectrum to 4G

All sounds good, but does anyone know where and when this rollout will take place?

I've been thinking of switching to Three for a while, but their LTE speeds in Aberdeen are a bit on the low side, this upgrade would be enough to tip it over the edge for me to make the jump, but I have a suspicion that this roll out will be slow and be years before Aberdeen (or anywhere in Scotland, really) to see the benefit

Or is my skepticism misplaced and this will be a fast rollout involving mainly software updates and very little physical site upgrades. This tweet seems to imply it'll be everywhere by Christmas https://twitter.com/ThreeUK/status/1174669760832913408

I don�t read that tweet as implying anything other than some of their 4G will be faster.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

I don�t read that tweet as implying anything other than some of their 4G will be faster.

If you have a compatible device. The list is quite short, and only mentioned phones.

Techradar say:-

Those with a compatible handset will see performance improve by 150 per cent, while those without will still see a bump of 50 per cent.

That seems a dubious claim in itself, but I can�t for some reason pick up the URL on my iPad. I just went to google and typed three l-band and a banner result appeared, with other results below.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That seems a dubious claim in itself, but I can�t for some reason pick up the URL on my iPad. I just went to google and typed three l-band and a banner result appeared, with other results below.

The assumption there is that enough devices will move to the L Band frequencies to release capacity for other devices on the old frequencies.

The spectrum in the L Band for cellular is shared between Three and Vodafone, and is known as Supplemental DownLink (SDL) in the jargon. This is because it is only one way, from the mast to your device. So it only works where there is existing capacity on another frequency to allow the device to transmit to the mast.

Three and Vodafone have spectrum at 1400mhz (the L band), and they bought this from Qualcomm in 2015:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/23/ofcom_appro...

This is known as LTE Band 32, so check handset specifications for Band 32 support. I think the B525 might support.

Three's own press release has the supported handsets listed:
http://www.threemediacentre.co.uk/news/2019/19-08-20...

Edited by jchamier (Fri 20-Sep-19 11:19:56)

In reply to a post by connormill:

Three have today announced that they plan to roll out 1.4GHz L-Band Spectrum to the majority of their network to improve LTE performance and also refarm some 3G spectrum to 4G

All sounds good, but does anyone know where and when this rollout will take place?

I've been thinking of switching to Three for a while, but their LTE speeds in Aberdeen are a bit on the low side, this upgrade would be enough to tip it over the edge for me to make the jump, but I have a suspicion that this roll out will be slow and be years before Aberdeen (or anywhere in Scotland, really) to see the benefit

Or is my skepticism misplaced and this will be a fast rollout involving mainly software updates and very little physical site upgrades. This tweet seems to imply it'll be everywhere by Christmas https://twitter.com/ThreeUK/status/1174669760832913408

WOW customers are really slating the rubbish speeds Three are supplying.

In reply to a post by busterboy:

WOW customers are really slating the rubbish speeds Three are supplying.

In the USA?

Edit: Ah, I see you aren't talking about providers, but World Of Warcraft players. Doesn't that rely on latency, rather than speed? I didn't think any serious gamers used mobile broadband.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 20-Sep-19 12:18:20)

And their press release also say they need to install new antennae.

"6,000 sites carrying 80% of our traffic will be upgraded with new antennas"

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

I don�t read that tweet as implying anything other than some of their 4G will be faster.

They are staring the rollout now, so if the tweet was meant as "some sites will be done" why don't they market it as our 4G is already faster and will get faster in more areas

Saying "by christmas" to me implies the rollout will be complete by then

Their own press release states

"The upgrades have already started in our busiest areas, so customers will start to see the benefits by the end of the year."

With the rollout due to complete by 2023.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

And their press release also say they need to install new antennae.

"6,000 sites carrying 80% of our traffic will be upgraded with new antennas"

Which three will be visiting as part of the 5G project, so this just PR to ensure those without a 5G handset don�t think they are being ignored. As in some areas Three is struggling for capacity. They chose not to bid much money on the original 800mhz auction. Despite being owned by a very wealthy company.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

They chose not to bid much money on the original 800mhz auction. Despite being owned by a very wealthy company.

Perhaps that attitude to investment is how they got to be wealthy.

Very true. But CK Hutchison Holdings are immense. Why their subdivision of Three UK has made such strange choices is worth remembering. Especially when they complain to ofcom about unfairness.

Ref: Three Data for Gaming

Some of use dont have a choice of using something else, plus the Unlimited Data for £22 inc 4G MiFi, is a pretty good deal.

my last test:- https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15690507926...

I have my doubts about that statement about not having a choice.

What did you do beforehand?

Quite apart from Three being only one of several mobile broadband providers available to you.

Even as a non-gamer I am well aware of the problems of mobile and satellite broadband wrt latency. Other than moans about the inconvenience of taking a long time to download updates to games themselves I have never seen speeds complained about even on ADSL, never mind top-end ADSL2+.

Edit: Your speed looks fine to me. Latency normal for mobile. Don�t forget I was originally commenting on:-

In reply to a post by busterboy:

WOW customers are really slating the rubbish speeds Three are supplying.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 21-Sep-19 09:50:35)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by busterboy:

WOW customers are really slating the rubbish speeds Three are supplying.

In the USA?

Edit: Ah, I see you aren't talking about providers, but World Of Warcraft players. Doesn't that rely on latency, rather than speed? I didn't think any serious gamers used mobile broadband.

I'm happy with 120mb down and 40 up that I get day in day out from three

In reply to a post by jchamier:

This is known as LTE Band 32, so check handset specifications for Band 32 support. I think the B525 might support.

Yes, B32 is listed as an option on mine. However, switching B32 on didn't make any difference.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

Yes, B32 is listed as an option on mine. However, switching B32 on didn't make any difference.

Not yet transmitting on your local mast then. I would check weekly until Christmas!

Anyone lucky enough to have this roll out in their area yet?
Each week I'm trying to force a connection on my modem just incase.

6000 masts between now and 2023 means a long wait.

Forcing a connection generally won't work as that will be restricting the modem to talk on that freq only for both uplink and downlink. The additional L-Band is for downlink only, so needs all the other freqs to be enabled for uplink.

Also the mast can choose not to let you access a freq.

We'll the rollout has started to reach Aberdeen

This speed test was taken near Dyce, at the new Parkhill junction for those familiar with the area.

6 weeks ago this was sub-5mbps on a B20 carrier, overall just a poor quality connection

Now it's just shy of 200mbps. A remarkable increase.
Hopefully they can roll this out to more locations and a fast pace.

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5620609256

In reply to a post by connormill:

We'll the rollout has started to reach Aberdeen

This speed test was taken near Dyce, at the new Parkhill junction for those familiar with the area.

6 weeks ago this was sub-5mbps on a B20 carrier, overall just a poor quality connection

Now it's just shy of 200mbps. A remarkable increase.
Hopefully they can roll this out to more locations and a fast pace.

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5620609256

What band combination/CA do you believe caused this 186.76Mbps Down and 14.04Mbps Up compared to the previous result in the same location.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by connormill:

We'll the rollout has started to reach Aberdeen

This speed test was taken near Dyce, at the new Parkhill junction for those familiar with the area.

6 weeks ago this was sub-5mbps on a B20 carrier, overall just a poor quality connection

Now it's just shy of 200mbps. A remarkable increase.
Hopefully they can roll this out to more locations and a fast pace.

https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/5620609256

What band combination/CA do you believe caused this 186.76Mbps Down and 14.04Mbps Up compared to the previous result in the same location.

I'm on an Un-Rooted device so can't get the full details, bit Network Cell Info shows the primary as still being B20

So I *think* it's 5MHz of B20 + 20MHz B32 SDL as this would explain the huge 187Mb download but poor 14Mb upload. The cell primary serves an industrial area and today is a bank holiday so I'm probably one of the only users on it. - but I am happy to be proven wrong.

The calculator here https://tools.pedroc.co.uk/4g-speed/ lists 187.5 DL and 18.75 UL as the maximum for 5MHz B20 + 20 MHz B32 SDL assuming 2x2 MIMO and 64 QAM so if my prediction is right, I'm basically using the full capacity of that cell.

Sounds questionable seeing as when I struggle to get good downstream speeds I struggle with upload too.

Just tested right now, 30Mbit down, 1Mbit up. If upstream is contended, there is no bandwidth for the ACK traffic to reach higher download speeds.

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

Sounds questionable seeing as when I struggle to get good downstream speeds I struggle with upload too.

Just tested right now, 30Mbit down, 1Mbit up. If upstream is contended, there is no bandwidth for the ACK traffic to reach higher download speeds.

But in the scenario I've just described the upload is not contended. I'm getting full performance of the Band 20 carrier

5MHz of B20 at 64QAM gives 37.5 DL & 18.75 UL
20MHz of B32 at 64QAM gives 150 DL & No Upload

That's a total of 187.5 DL and 18.75 UL - which is exactly what I'm seeing. Network Cell Info shows B20 as the primary carrier. If there was B3 or B1 available here, surely it would show as primary above the B20 layer.

In reply to a post by connormill:

I'm on an Un-Rooted device so can't get the full details, bit Network Cell Info shows the primary as still being B20

So I *think* it's 5MHz of B20 + 20MHz B32 SDL as this would explain the huge 187Mb download but poor 14Mb upload. The cell primary serves an industrial area and today is a bank holiday so I'm probably one of the only users on it. - but I am happy to be proven wrong.

The calculator here https://tools.pedroc.co.uk/4g-speed/ lists 187.5 DL and 18.75 UL as the maximum for 5MHz B20 + 20 MHz B32 SDL assuming 2x2 MIMO and 64 QAM so if my prediction is right, I'm basically using the full capacity of that cell.

Based on your calculations it appears very possible (unless anyone else knows different), would be good to see what the speed says next time you're in the same location on a regular day.

Edited by deleted (Fri 03-Jan-20 11:56:10)

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

Sounds questionable seeing as when I struggle to get good downstream speeds I struggle with upload too.

Just tested right now, 30Mbit down, 1Mbit up. If upstream is contended, there is no bandwidth for the ACK traffic to reach higher download speeds.

That's likely down to how the people connected to your mast are using their devices. By example I near enough always get c.12-15mb upload even when the download speed is terrible (<5mb) to times when speed is high(ish) >50mb in the middle of the night. Usual download for me is around 25mb, it's very rare for my upload to ever drop below 10mb. This is via band 3 & band 20 CA.

In reply to a post by connormill:

That's a total of 187.5 DL and 18.75 UL - which is exactly what I'm seeing. Network Cell Info shows B20 as the primary carrier. If there was B3 or B1 available here, surely it would show as primary above the B20 layer.

Surprising to see B32 without B3 or B1, but Three's network rebuild is happening fast, so one cell site near you could have new hardware, and not yet fully upgraded. If modes higher than 64QAM appear, faster speeds are also possible.

If you have a Qualcomm cellular radio powered device, then without root, Cellmapper is quite good at showing the bands in use. Other radios are not as informative. Samsung devices have their own engineering status page which shows a lot of detail.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

If you have a Qualcomm cellular radio powered device, then without root, Cellmapper is quite good at showing the bands in use. Other radios are not as informative. Samsung devices have their own engineering status page which shows a lot of detail.

I have considered rooting for scenarios like this, but I'm worried about if it'll affect apps like banking and Google Pay

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Samsung devices have their own engineering status page which shows a lot of detail.

I believe on a lot of newer Samsung phones its *#0011# to access this information.

In reply to a post by connormill:

I have considered rooting for scenarios like this, but I'm worried about if it'll affect apps like banking and Google Pay

Not worth it on your main device in my personal opinion, I have Google Pixel v1 which I rooted for this reason, bought from CEX

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by connormill:

I have considered rooting for scenarios like this, but I'm worried about if it'll affect apps like banking and Google Pay

Not worth it on your main device in my personal opinion, I have Google Pixel v1 which I rooted for this reason, bought from CEX

I do have a spare Moto G4 kicking about, but I don't think it supports more than 2CA and can't really be bothered getting another SIM for it

You can do a lot with a £1 prepay from a local store/petrol station. 2CA is better than my Moto E 2nd Gen. Rooting isn't always easy on Lenovo devices though.

It would definitely affect google pay. And only affects banking if you happen to sign in using your finger print. In my case, that is.

In reply to a post by woodmass14:

It would definitely affect google pay. And only affects banking if you happen to sign in using your finger print. In my case, that is.

depends on the bank, the barclays app will not run at all on a rooted phone and is probably not the only one (and there is no known workaround that I have seen for it either, there was at one point but they stopped it). Rooting it will also break any device encryption that is in place (not sure about others but its on all samsung phones). Still a few reasons to root but these days there are more downsides than up.

Oh, well good to know! Assumed it would have a similar affect from bank to bank. Seems not. Thanks for the heads up

The cell site I connect to has been "upgraded". I was hoping it would include band 32, but looks like Three have instead just activated 10mhz of Band 1 2100mhz.

Improvements:
- Ping has halved from 40ms to Vodafone London down to as little as 20ms

Problems
- CA has now stopped working completely. Previously band 3 and band 20 would CA, now the B525 is flicking between band 1 and 3 multiple times per day but looks like network doesn't seem to want to play ball anymore.

Manual for B525 doesn't show Band 1 and Band 3 as being a supported option.for carrier aggregation. Anyone with a B525 seen their device enter CA with these bands?

Edited by gary333 (Fri 17-Jan-20 00:23:14)