Options for 5g routers (must have bridge mode), & vpn issues

My home broadband will just about manage 50mb. On my phone (s20 ultra) i can get 280mb on 5g with EE. So I am looking at options for moving to 5g home broadband.

I need bridge mode on whatever modem/router I get because I want to continue using my AC86u for my devices. I am assuming that 280mb on my phone will translate into a least that on a proper 5g router. I know that isnt the case with 4g routers due to them being low categories most of the time but I wouldn't expect that to be the case with 5g (but let me know if I am wrong, I don't want to end up with 280mb on my phone and much less on a proper router!).

I use a vpn all the time (both openvpn on the router for certain devices and wireguard on my pc) and am concerned about being able to do that when on 5g because I have tethered my pc to my phone and when using openvpn (on my pc which is more than capable of gigabit speeds on openvpn), i barely get 50mb, turn it off and its back to full speed. Doesn't matter if I use port 443 or not. I tried wireguard instead, the client connected instantly as usual.....but I seem to have no connectivity, nothing will load at all.

So I don't know why openvpn is so slow, unless EE are throttling it (and since it happens on 443 as well, that seems unlikely?), and I have even less clue why wireguard will connect fine, but I cant do anything at all with it. Both issues are potentially due to the tethering somehow and maybe they won't be there on a proper 5g modem/router but I am concerned because if they won't work properly then that's a dealbreaker and I don't want the time/money/hassle/excitement of going for the 5g only to find I can't use it.

I haven't seen many options at all for 5g routers yet, and don't know if any of them are any good, worth getting, or can work in bridge mode (I would also like it as future proof as possible for things like mmwave but if that's not possible I can probably live with it).

Edited by Ewok (Thu 01-Oct-20 09:38:52)

Interested and following this thread. There is a 5g hotspot a couple of miles from me and EE checker says patchy 5g where I am.

I am on Three using the Huawei 310 linked to an Asus AC97u.

The Huawei doesn't have bridge mode so what I have done is set DMZ mode on the connection to the Asus.
The system is double NATd but it still works fine, all ports get passed through to the Asus
I have an OpenVPN server running on the Asus, allowing me to access my local network and also connect to my company via VPN for work.

No 5G near me yet so I haven't really been looking at new routers.

Edited by onthenet (Thu 01-Oct-20 09:31:39)

one thing i would say is that the chips in the routers are never as advanced as the ones in mobile phones.
so you may not be able to match the speed you get when tethered on your mobile.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

one thing i would say is that the chips in the routers are never as advanced as the ones in mobile phones. so you may not be able to match the speed you get when tethered on your mobile.

The closest are the Netgear M1 (MR1100) and M2 products, they are over £300 on Amazon UK and seem to use the top end modems also used in handsets.

modems are more expensive because they sell in vastly smaller quantities than handsets.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

one thing i would say is that the chips in the routers are never as advanced as the ones in mobile phones. so you may not be able to match the speed you get when tethered on your mobile.

The closest are the Netgear M1 (MR1100) and M2 products, they are over £300 on Amazon UK and seem to use the top end modems also used in handsets.

modems are more expensive because they sell in vastly smaller quantities than handsets.

yeah those have high end modems, cat 16 and 24 respectively whereas his phone is cat 24.
16 is gigabit, 20 is 2 gigabit and 24 is 3 gigabit, all theoretical of course.
but if that translates into real world differences the m1 would be a third of the phones bandwidth and the m2 would be two thirds of the phones bandwidth.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

one thing i would say is that the chips in the routers are never as advanced as the ones in mobile phones. so you may not be able to match the speed you get when tethered on your mobile.

The closest are the Netgear M1 (MR1100) and M2 products, they are over £300 on Amazon UK and seem to use the top end modems also used in handsets.

modems are more expensive because they sell in vastly smaller quantities than handsets.

yeah those have high end modems, cat 16 and 24 respectively whereas his phone is cat 24.
16 is gigabit, 20 is 2 gigabit and 24 is 3 gigabit, all theoretical of course.
but if that translates into real world differences the m1 would be a third of the phones bandwidth and the m2 would be two thirds of the phones bandwidth.

I am confused, if the phone is cat24, and the M2 is cat24, why would the M2 be two thirds of the phone bandwidth? It would be the same?

Both those netgears are 4g. I am looking at 5g not 4g, still very little choice it seems.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Both those netgears are 4g. I am looking at 5g not 4g, still very little choice it seems.

The M5 is coming, no date or price yet:
https://www.netgear.com/home/products/mobile-broadba...

5G as a technology is still VERY new, even as networks roll it out.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Both those netgears are 4g. I am looking at 5g not 4g, still very little choice it seems.

The M5 is coming, no date or price yet:
https://www.netgear.com/home/products/mobile-broadba...

5G as a technology is still VERY new, even as networks roll it out.

Yeah it might still be too new to be worth trying. That M5 has said "coming soon" for at least 8 months! Probably a silly price when it does come out anyway.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Yeah it might still be too new to be worth trying. That M5 has said "coming soon" for at least 8 months! Probably a silly price when it does come out anyway.

You might have to get a hand handset (e.g. OnePlus Nord, or similar) and tether it, to get 5G connectivity, in the short term.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Yeah it might still be too new to be worth trying. That M5 has said "coming soon" for at least 8 months! Probably a silly price when it does come out anyway.

You might have to get a hand handset (e.g. OnePlus Nord, or similar) and tether it, to get 5G connectivity, in the short term.

Yeah, what worries me about that is even with an s20 ultra, i could only get it to tether using 2.4ghz at a max of 144mb with the phone right next to the antennas. For some reason when i set the hotspot to 5ghz i cannot connect to it, even though the pc is using a brand new intel ax200 wifi card.

The other issue is i only get those good speeds from the bedroom and the wifi hotspot on the phone is not strong enough to reach from the bedroom to where the pc is. One option would be to move the AC86u that al my devices currently connect to, to the bedroom, use the phone to tether to that over USB and my devices might then have a strong enough signal to be able to use it at a good speed. It is looking like it just isnt really viable yet. I will probably look again if the m5 comes out at a reasonable price (which it won't).

In reply to a post by Ewok:

One option would be to move the AC86u that al my devices currently connect to, to the bedroom, use the phone to tether to that over USB and my devices might then have a strong enough signal to be able to use it at a good speed. It is looking like it just isnt really viable yet. I will probably look again if the m5 comes out at a reasonable price (which it won't).

That's a shame. I don't know if your AC86U has a USB3 port, but my AX88U has, and it depends on the handset. It is possible that a USB 3 port router, and a USB 3 enabled handset, MIGHT give you the higher speeds faster than WiFi 2.4 GHz.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Yeah it might still be too new to be worth trying. That M5 has said "coming soon" for at least 8 months! Probably a silly price when it does come out anyway.

You might have to get a hand handset (e.g. OnePlus Nord, or similar) and tether it, to get 5G connectivity, in the short term.

Yeah, what worries me about that is even with an s20 ultra, i could only get it to tether using 2.4ghz at a max of 144mb with the phone right next to the antennas. For some reason when i set the hotspot to 5ghz i cannot connect to it, even though the pc is using a brand new intel ax200 wifi card.

The other issue is i only get those good speeds from the bedroom and the wifi hotspot on the phone is not strong enough to reach from the bedroom to where the pc is. One option would be to move the AC86u that al my devices currently connect to, to the bedroom, use the phone to tether to that over USB and my devices might then have a strong enough signal to be able to use it at a good speed. It is looking like it just isnt really viable yet. I will probably look again if the m5 comes out at a reasonable price (which it won't).

You could try a USB C dongle that has a gigabit ethernet port and charging port like this:

Link

I know android supports ethernet but I don't know if you can tether with it.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

You might have to get a hand handset (e.g. OnePlus Nord, or similar) and tether it, to get 5G connectivity, in the short term.

Yeah, what worries me about that is even with an s20 ultra, i could only get it to tether using 2.4ghz at a max of 144mb with the phone right next to the antennas. For some reason when i set the hotspot to 5ghz i cannot connect to it, even though the pc is using a brand new intel ax200 wifi card.

The other issue is i only get those good speeds from the bedroom and the wifi hotspot on the phone is not strong enough to reach from the bedroom to where the pc is. One option would be to move the AC86u that al my devices currently connect to, to the bedroom, use the phone to tether to that over USB and my devices might then have a strong enough signal to be able to use it at a good speed. It is looking like it just isnt really viable yet. I will probably look again if the m5 comes out at a reasonable price (which it won't).

You could try a USB C dongle that has a gigabit ethernet port and charging port like this:

Link

I know android supports ethernet but I don't know if you can tether with it.

I can tether it using usb directly to the router, works the same as usb tethering to a pc. I think even the old ac68 could do it but didnt have usb3

In reply to a post by Ewok:

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

Yeah, what worries me about that is even with an s20 ultra, i could only get it to tether using 2.4ghz at a max of 144mb with the phone right next to the antennas. For some reason when i set the hotspot to 5ghz i cannot connect to it, even though the pc is using a brand new intel ax200 wifi card.

The other issue is i only get those good speeds from the bedroom and the wifi hotspot on the phone is not strong enough to reach from the bedroom to where the pc is. One option would be to move the AC86u that al my devices currently connect to, to the bedroom, use the phone to tether to that over USB and my devices might then have a strong enough signal to be able to use it at a good speed. It is looking like it just isnt really viable yet. I will probably look again if the m5 comes out at a reasonable price (which it won't).

You could try a USB C dongle that has a gigabit ethernet port and charging port like this:

Link

I know android supports ethernet but I don't know if you can tether with it.

I can tether it using usb directly to the router, works the same as usb tethering to a pc. I think even the old ac68 could do it but didnt have usb3

That's why I suggested gigabit ethernet instead of USB2 as its much higher speed

Ok so I have it working! I plugged the phone into the usb 3 port, set it to usb tether mode, and couldn't get it working. Eventually plugged it into the usb 2 port instead and voila. I now have my S20 Ultra on 5g tethering to my AC86U via usb2 in the other room and am getting the full 280mb down and 40mb up from it via wifi.

I don't think the USB is providing enough power to keep the phone charged so this can only be a proof of concept rather than a final solution but it most definitely works.

The problem is it refuses to work with wireguard, and the connection over openvpn is very flaky even on port 443. No idea why or whats going on with it but its not going to be viable if vpn's won't work on it. It does seem better on openvpn UDP than it was on TCP443 which is odd. I only get about 150mb most of the timebut have seen a test over 200. It might just be a bottleneck somewhere between me and the vpn server, I have no way of knowing (it is definitely not a cpu limit). I can probably live with using openvpn and UDP and getting 150-200.

I will need to look into possible getting a cheap 5g phone that can do at least the same speeds as the s20 ultra (oneplus Nord looks probably the cheapest that will do it?), but would also need to figure out how to charge the thing while its connected to the router via usb.

I wouldn't need any of this if Virgin bothered to extend their cabling another few metres, I would be able to get 500mb full fibre. I am in a flat where literally the next house along from the estate has virgin but this was all cabled by C&W before virgin came along and before the flats at the end of the road were built around 2002, so the cabling doesn't cover the 24 flats and virgin have not bothered to do anything about it. However it is literally a few meters away.

Edited by Ewok (Sun 04-Oct-20 15:05:58)

Would wireless charging work when the phone is connected via USB to your router?

I suspect so, but I won't be using a £1300 phone to do this and the cheap 5g phones won't have wireless charging so it's probably not an option. I am keeping a close eye on the netgear m5, it was meant to release in the "second half" of 2020 which would suggest it might not be too much longer. I would like to at least get a look at it's price before deciding what to do, if I spent £350 on a phone only to find the m5 is both better and a reasonably similar price then I would not be pleased!

In reply to a post by Ewok:

I suspect so, but I won't be using a £1300 phone to do this and the cheap 5g phones won't have wireless charging so it's probably not an option.

Yes, the OnePlus Nord doesn't include Qi charging, but it is only £370.

Keep an eye what happens with the Ofcom spectrum auction in 2021, as the 700 MHz band is not necessarily supported by many devices today.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 04-Oct-20 16:38:31)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Ewok:

I suspect so, but I won't be using a £1300 phone to do this and the cheap 5g phones won't have wireless charging so it's probably not an option.

Yes, the OnePlus Nord doesn't include Qi charging, but it is only £370.

Keep an eye what happens with the Ofcom spectrum auction in 2021, as the 700 MHz band is not necessarily supported by many devices today.

Yeah thats the other issue, I would HOPE the m5 supports it though and that's one extra reason to wait a bit longer. Website says this about it but not sure what that means:

Latest 5G Technology: 5GNR Sub 6 GHz (NSA).

It also indicates itll use a snapdragon sdx55 so it may even end up with the same chipset as the Nord.

If I did end up with the Nord I wonder if I can get a special cable that will allow the data between phone and router, and a charger to be plugged in to power the phone.

My advice is wait a bit.

Netgear have the MR5200 coming out, but will likely also update their modems (https://www.netgear.com/home/products/mobile-broadband/lte-modems/) to 5G as well, but don't expect Netgear to be any better than the Huawei stuff the ISPs push on us, which irrespective of politics, is generally junk.

In the meantime, Mikrotik have a beta product with the Chateau (https://mikrotik.com/product/chateau_lte12) that's doing Cat 12 LTE (up to 600mbps with carrier aggregation), and they also have a 5G version in the pipeline, but they use a new version of Router OS (v7) which, to put it politely, is still a bit too new. You probably haven't heard about Mikrotik much as they're not consumer, but once Router OS7 is stable and the 5G is out, I don't expect the AC86u will exactly be your pride and joy anymore if you have the Chateau.

However, they'll also likely bring out a 5G MiniPCIe card meaning their brilliant SXT line can be upgraded to 5G, but that will be a while. Currently the best SXT is Cat6 LTE (300mbps).

Teltonika is another industrial router that is likely to bring out a 5G device soon too. Meanwhile Ubiquiti brought out a lemon of an LTE modem for the US market but have promised to add a SIM slot for anyone who doesn't want to be locked into AT&T as isn't in the US.

So lots of things that are already on the horizon, but like FTTP, not quite at the beach yet.

One option worth a look is the Huawei 5G Win router:

https://consumer.huawei.com/en/routers/5g-cpe-win/

I had one shipped from HK and it was c£360 inc duty and shipping by DHL.

The WIN router is typically wall or roof mounted and connects to an indoor router via a 15m power over ethernet cable.

In use it's proven to be extremely reliable - I just attached it to our TV arial and pointed it in the direction of a Three 5G cell site.

The Huawei WIN router does support Bridge mode - so could be used with an indoor router that supports open VPN or similar.

In reply to a post by LondonCalling:

One option worth a look is the Huawei 5G Win router:

https://consumer.huawei.com/en/routers/5g-cpe-win/

I had one shipped from HK and it was c£360 inc duty and shipping by DHL.

The WIN router is typically wall or roof mounted and connects to an indoor router via a 15m power over ethernet cable.

In use it's proven to be extremely reliable - I just attached it to our TV arial and pointed it in the direction of a Three 5G cell site.

The Huawei WIN router does support Bridge mode - so could be used with an indoor router that supports open VPN or similar.

Hmm it sounds ok, shame it's not a bit cheaper. If it was American prices (£200-230 it seems) I would probably go for it.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

I don't think the USB is providing enough power to keep the phone charged so this can only be a proof of concept rather than a final solution but it most definitely works.

There are two options, use a powered USB hub which might work.

The alternative is a USB power injection cable. Basically it injects power from an alternative source (aka a high power charger) while the data is pass through. Something like this now unfortunately discontinued Mikrotik part

https://mikrotik.com/product/5VUSB

If your handy with a soldering iron it should be easy enough to make one of these yourself.

Edited by jabuzzard (Mon 05-Oct-20 15:11:53)

Bear in mind you're likely to have to deal with CGNAT on IPv4 and I imagine the VPN issues are intentional on EE's part.

In reply to a post by nemeth782:

Bear in mind you're likely to have to deal with CGNAT on IPv4 and I imagine the VPN issues are intentional on EE's part.

I don't think I am getting CGNAT on EE 5g (I might be wrong). The VPN provider thinks the issues might be related to MTU (wireguard works fine on the phone itself but when I tether the phone to the router and try to use wireguard on the pc, it connects to the wireguard server but then i aparently have no connectivity to anything else, not a single page will load). I haven't had a chance to test it yet by lowering the MTU on wireguard.

Right now I can't get 4 or 5g at all, they mus be fiddling with the masts or something, maybe adding even more speed

Managed to find a little more info on the M5. It seems it is now out in America as an AT&T exclusive, and costs $509. Since GBP and USD are the same (/s ), that no doubt means it'll be £500 whenever it arrives here. I won't pay that.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/15/21437619/netgear-...

On the plus side it seems it will handle the new spectrum after the auction as well as mmwave so it's pretty future proof.