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Standard User nellisere
(newbie) Sat 03-Apr-21 14:04:15
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5G Coming?


[link to this post]
 
Hi Everyone,

I was doing my random roadworks.org check today and noticed some works going on near me. The comments just say "Planned works about to start" and T-Mobile UK are responsible for the works (I'm assuming it's just standard EE). Has anyone seen something like this before? I can't get any answer at all from EE. There is not a mast there at the moment, just a PCP and FTTC cabinet.

https://one.network/?GB121781376
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sat 03-Apr-21 16:35:30
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: nellisere] [link to this post]
 
The Department for Transport have recently dumbed down the information that was once available through public sites like one.network.

Now you have to be either a Telco or Street Work qualified contractor (part of a Street Manager organisation) to get the full info feed. See below:

https://onenetworkhq.medium.com/all-change-at-street...

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User dect
(knowledge is power) Sat 03-Apr-21 16:40:29
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
The Department for Transport have recently dumbed down the information that was once available through public sites like one.network.

Now you have to be either a Telco or Street Work qualified contractor (part of a Street Manager organisation) to get the full info feed. See below:
This is a right pain in the back side.


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Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sat 03-Apr-21 17:10:12
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Tell me about it.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User nellisere
(newbie) Sat 03-Apr-21 17:11:59
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Wow I didn't know that! I haven't used it in so long, I was checking it daily when we were finally getting FTTC back in 2013! It says the work is commencing on the 9th April, so I guess I'll have a drive over to see if it is them putting a mast up! If it is 5G then that would be great as it's only a 3 minute drive away so I'll be in range!
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 03-Apr-21 19:33:20
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: nellisere] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nellisere:
Has anyone seen something like this before?
It could be an EE mast, or a Three mast, being installed by MBNL on behalf of either shareholder. For some reason some systems still show the defunct company names like T-Mobile or Orange UK both of which are closed.

You should also check your local council planning website, they should have drawings and information on what is being installed.

Something mobile communications is for sure, and it won't matter there is any ground telecoms in place. Those are separate.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Grimers
(newbie) Sat 03-Apr-21 19:47:40
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
I noticed that there is a lack of information nowadays, such a shame...
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sat 03-Apr-21 20:00:51
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Grimers] [link to this post]
 
Yes I don't think a lot of folks realise the data has been pulled.

I don't fathom the logic myself, given we're supposed to be living in an age of ahem digital 'transparency'....yeh right!

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User Grimers
(newbie) Sat 03-Apr-21 20:02:53
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
And it had to happen just as my exchange's FTTP rollout started gathering pace! Now, all I can see is that Openreach are carrying out works, but can't tell what! Oh well!
Standard User Brunel
(experienced) Sat 03-Apr-21 22:36:10
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: nellisere] [link to this post]
 
If an antenna tower is to be installed, the base will have been fitted and will be under a tarmac patch.

new cabinets etc, usually indicate 5G

Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Sun 04-Apr-21 00:14:26
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: nellisere] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nellisere:
Wow I didn't know that! I haven't used it in so long, I was checking it daily when we were finally getting FTTC back in 2013! It says the work is commencing on the 9th April, so I guess I'll have a drive over to see if it is them putting a mast up! If it is 5G then that would be great as it's only a 3 minute drive away so I'll be in range!


It's not quite as simple as that. Remember that 5G signals do not travel as far as earlier generations of mobile signals. The technology is always improving but currently about one minute's driving at 20mph will take you to the limit of a full-on 5G signal although low-band 5G signals will propagate further at reduced transfer speeds
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 04-Apr-21 00:49:50
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
However, AIUI the current UK rollout of 5G requires a 4G mast. So the poster looking forward to it may find they get excellent 4G.

It is now well over two years since I ditched first AAISP broadband then a month later my landline, for just 4G. Saving £49pm.

(Since when I have installed cloud-based security cameras so added a mobile broadband router. Still saving £29pm).

A recently purchased Sony "Smart" TV is now also connected to the router and Formula 1 races on Now TV plus the live timing feed on iPad is no problem.

Phone on unlimited everything, router on unlimited data.

(See my sig for speedtest results).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, sites and mail hosting - Tsohost & Ionos.
Connections: OnePlus 8 Pro max 165Mbps down, 24Mbps up on Three, and B311 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
========================
The EU’s multiple failures are due to a deeper malaise .... What malaise? The EU’s formidable immunity to the smallest amount of democracy. New Statesman Feb 2021.
Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Sun 04-Apr-21 01:13:57
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
However, AIUI the current UK rollout of 5G requires a 4G mast.


As ever, pertinent advice from Bob. Looking forward it could be a two-stage improvement for the OP.

From the government Mobile Technology Guide (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/...):

"Small cells

"At the moment, 5G equipment is generally being added to existing mobile phone masts. However, over time, more smaller transmitters (known as “small cells”) may be used to provide capacity in specific locations."


Reading that, it looks like "requires" is probably a technical rather than a legislative imperative at the moment.

Hopefully the OP may see improved 4G service but presumably the implication is that full-on 5G will initially only be received within the putative 500m. range of the existing masts while the coverage for the full-on service will increase as small cells are added.
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 04-Apr-21 07:53:18
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
The crux of it, is that current 5G deployments here in the UK and elsewhere are underpinned by 4G as operators are deploying 5G service using NSA (Non-Stand Alone) architecture - which is really 4G+

As a user you can see that less so in the range of the cell, but more obviously in the attainable download and upload speeds. As an example 500 to 600 Mbps is quite typically attainable on download but the upload is about 1/10th of that speed. It’s not “true” 5G in other words.

Eventually the operators will migrate to SA (Stand Alone) architecture which will provide end to end 5G speed, rather than partially as we have now.

Here’s a good link briefly explaining:
https://www.affirmednetworks.com/sa-and-nsa-5g-archi...

It’s really a commercial / technical decision by the mobile operators, both to leverage and extend the operational life of their 4G investment but also as a means of deploying 5G without having to build a brand new network from scratch.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 12:19:07
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
Remember that 5G signals do not travel as far as earlier generations of mobile signals.
That's not caused by the 5G NR protocol, but because of the current frequency in use (3.4 to 3.6 GHz) which is the highest so far used for mobile communications. The only limitation on using lower frequencies for 5G NR is that they are all busy serving customers with LTE (4G) capable devices. 5G NR will roll out on 700 MHz later this year, which will be lower than any mobile transmission in use. All four network operators use 800 MHz for LTE.

The technology is always improving but currently about one minute's driving at 20mph will take you to the limit of a full-on 5G signal although low-band 5G signals will propagate further at reduced transfer speeds

There is no reason to think that for the same allocated spectrum capacity that 5G and 4G wouldn't cover the same area and 5G provide more throughput.

Once we are able to compare pears with pears, rather than comparing pears with carrots, things will be clearer.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 12:23:34
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
The crux of it, is that current 5G deployments here in the UK and elsewhere are underpinned by 4G as operators are deploying 5G service using NSA (Non-Stand Alone) architecture - which is really 4G+

I'd call it 4G++++ given some of the speeds seen. I have read others describe it as adding an 8 lane motorway from the mast to the phone, but keeping the rural track from the phone to the mast.

As a user you can see that less so in the range of the cell, but more obviously in the attainable download and upload speeds. As an example 500 to 600 Mbps is quite typically attainable on download but the upload is about 1/10th of that speed.
Speeds that high only possible in really good reception, 250 to 350 seems more typical today, and I put that down to the n78 band.

Eventually the operators will migrate to SA (Stand Alone) architecture which will provide end to end 5G speed, rather than partially as we have now.
T-Mobile USA claim to have done this already. I've not seen any statistics on latency, which should have been improved.
https://www.t-mobile.com/news/network/standalone-5g-...

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 04-Apr-21 12:28:38
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I think there's only about six or seven mobile operators worldwide currently that have rolled out and are operating a "full" SA 5G network. A couple in China, one in South Africa (fixed wireless), T-Mobile USA as you say, I think Telstra in Oz have built the network core and enabled masts but not rolled out the service.

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Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 12:30:00
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Agreed. I'm hoping one of the UK networks enables SA when they go live with the 700 MHz band, but that's probably ambitious smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 14:57:01
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
However, AIUI the current UK rollout of 5G requires a 4G mast. So the poster looking forward to it may find they get excellent 4G.
But there is no requirement that the 4G and 5G come from the same mast, can get 4G from a local street pole and 5G from a large macro site.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Sun 04-Apr-21 16:14:19
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Always happy to defer to those with greater knowledge and experience (and who carry credibility on these pages).
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 04-Apr-21 17:56:30
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
I'd call it 4G++++ given some of the speeds seen. I have read others describe it as adding an 8 lane motorway from the mast to the phone, but keeping the rural track from the phone to the mast.
Speeds that high only possible in really good reception, 250 to 350 seems more typical today, and I put that down to the n78 band.

I was seeing a ping time of around 44ms on a GigaCube. Which was well a bit disappointing.

Wire speed downloads around 325 Mbps and upload of 42 Mbps from an internal position behind glass albeit about 3 stories up - Zone 2 London, around Highbury last August. I remember balcony testing that and getting about 480 Mbps in August 2019. The cell was pretty new at the time. No longer there and the GigaCube contract has run its course....

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 19:30:42
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
I was seeing a ping time of around 44ms on a GigaCube. Which was well a bit disappointing.
That sounds like LTE but maybe just because the data goes through the LTE core (EPC), rather than a new 5G core?? I'm assuming Vodafone as you said GigaCube, and I know VF have been using DSS to share spectrum with LTE in the capital (and maybe elsewhere) so perhaps not as much capacity available when needed.

Wire speed downloads around 325 Mbps and upload of 42 Mbps from an internal position behind glass albeit about 3 stories up - Zone 2 London, around Highbury last August. I remember balcony testing that and getting about 480 Mbps in August 2019. The cell was pretty new at the time. No longer there and the GigaCube contract has run its course....


Good speeds, and I wonder long term if 5G will be more to replace fixed line, or for mobile devices. Watching to see.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Apr-21 19:31:28
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
Always happy to defer to those with greater knowledge and experience (and who carry credibility on these pages).
I'm a total amateur, but have had time to read lots, doesn't mean I'm right!

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Mon 05-Apr-21 10:20:03
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Re: 5G Coming?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
I was seeing a ping time of around 44ms on a GigaCube. Which was well a bit disappointing.
That sounds like LTE but maybe just because the data goes through the LTE core (EPC), rather than a new 5G core?? I'm assuming Vodafone as you said GigaCube, and I know VF have been using DSS to share spectrum with LTE in the capital (and maybe elsewhere) so perhaps not as much capacity available when needed.

Wire speed downloads around 325 Mbps and upload of 42 Mbps from an internal position behind glass albeit about 3 stories up - Zone 2 London, around Highbury last August. I remember balcony testing that and getting about 480 Mbps in August 2019. The cell was pretty new at the time. No longer there and the GigaCube contract has run its course....


Good speeds, and I wonder long term if 5G will be more to replace fixed line, or for mobile devices. Watching to see.

This thread a few weeks ago, the OP there based in Manchester on Three 5G was seeing better download rates, “...touching 600 Mbps” but ping times and jitter was remarkably similar (also upload speed) to what I had seen in London on Vodafone GigaCube.

Given the correlation across providers and location, I reckon the round trip time limitation at least is an artefact of using a ‘legacy’ EPC core architecture, rather than anything Vodafone may be doing with sharing of LTE spectrum in the capital. Unless Three are doing similar? On the other hand if/when native SA 5G becomes available (together with more NR bandwidth as you noted) I’d fully expect RTT to reduce down to single digits.

Saying that there may be further improvements that could be made on the existing ‘hybrid’ implementation of 5G. Ping times could reduce by half with optimisation of EPC, given that 15ms ping times are supposedly within the realms of possibility on NSA.

My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 05-Apr-21 10:28:21)

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