3G Switch Off / Retirement

Vodafone - start their retirement in February and complete by December 2023.
Three UK - by the December 2024
EE - will switch of their 3G network 'during' 2024 by June 2023*
VMo2 - no formal announcement to date

Ofcom Overview (3.08.2022)

Which? summary on the UK network closures (15.12.2022)

2G will still be around for another decade or so (but with hugely reduced spectrum) to serve the needs of embedded M2M tech like smart meters and the like.

* edit: just discussing in thread over at ISPR; the truer date is actually June 2023 when folks on legacy 3G plans will be migrated onto new plans and only 2G functionality (calls and texts only) will otherwise be operable

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 27-Dec-22 15:38:50)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

2G will still be around for another decade or so (but with hugely reduced spectrum) to serve the needs of embedded M2M tech like smart meters and the like.

The likes of EE say if you have an old 3G device that you’ll still be able to make calls, so they’re obviously hoping 2G has sufficient capacity left !

Just discovered this thread
Once again it would seem rural areas are being discriminated against. No 4g here from any operator only very flakey 3/2g . and sub uso internet coverage so wifi calling is hit and miss.
Only 55 miles from central London but communications wize its like being in the thied world

2G will be needed not just for smart meters, but also for MNVOs that don't support VoLTE - e.g. Plusnet.

In reply to a post by crule:

Just discovered this thread
Once again it would seem rural areas are being discriminated against. No 4g here from any operator only very flakey 3/2g . and sub uso internet coverage so wifi calling is hit and miss.
Only 55 miles from central London but communications wize its like being in the thied world

Ofcom won't let them leave you with no service. If you have not tried all 4 physical networks then its worth checking to see - but if you have a workable 3G service then you should at least get the same in 4G.

Because 3G was designed by committee and is pretty awfully designed, its time has come, the radio technology for 4G is superior (as is 2G).

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

2G will be needed not just for smart meters, but also for MNVOs that don't support VoLTE - e.g. Plusnet.

I can see one of two things happening:
* BT Plc exit the Plusnet brand for mobile phones and move everyone to EE (as they are doing with BT mobile)
* BT Plc update the parameters on your existing SIM to support VoLTE

The second is easy as it is just a business decision.

There appears to be little reliable data, but many smart meters have LTE logos, so can support 4G, so perhaps its parking meters and vending machines that are really going to need the 10 additional years to upgrade from 2G/GPRS connections.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 28-Dec-22 16:11:02)

I hope they upgrade all the 3G (with no 4G) masts to 4G when they switch off 3G where I live and work, in Gosport (Population 81,952 c2021).

The last time I checked and experimented, The 4G signal strength/quality from further away masts was to weak and virtually unusable. My phones and many others would loose signal altogether on 4G. The phones would keep hunting for 4G signals and not switch down to 3G sometimes. Or they'd switch to 3G for a few seconds, then back to weak 4G signal, then loose signal again and keep looping or hunting with no signal. We would miss incoming calls intermittently or not be able to make outgoing calls unless we manually switch to 3G / 2G or switch mobile data off in settings sometimes. This was the same with all the major providers where I live, some worse than others.

I hope you reported these issues to your provider and got compensation. None of that sounds normal for such a large town. I've not been your way for a while, used to go to Cosham weekly.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by crule:

Just discovered this thread
Once again it would seem rural areas are being discriminated against. No 4g here from any operator only very flakey 3/2g . and sub uso internet coverage so wifi calling is hit and miss.
Only 55 miles from central London but communications wize its like being in the thied world

Ofcom won't let them leave you with no service. If you have not tried all 4 physical networks then its worth checking to see - but if you have a workable 3G service then you should at least get the same in 4G.

Because 3G was designed by committee and is pretty awfully designed, its time has come, the radio technology for 4G is superior (as is 2G).

I wish I had your confidence. When I applied to OR for a broadband connection which met the USO I was told the cost to me would be "well in excess of £100K" as there was no one to agregate with.

It's been reported to all the providers - Mostly by my wifes employer when they kept changing contracts to the best deal they chose based on the contract price, and decided by an accountant who did no research or asked anyone what the real life coverage was like in the work/home locations, and which turned out to have the worst signal quality / strength. So bad, there was no signal at all regardless, on some parts of the site, even if data was switched off completely and being outdoors. So they to switch back to the old provider and pay for both for a while.

I'm sure this isn't an issue throughout the entire Gosport Borough but it is where we live and where my wife and I work. That is, 3 different places, each 1 mile apart. However the last time I checked, the nearest mast with 4G used to be over a mile away from the closest workplace and 2 miles away from the other workplace and home, all 4 providers. We seem to be in some of black hole for signal. Not sure if it's some kind of local interference or poor coverage from the providers.

Re. Cosham, I've never experienced any issues there so far, when I've visited. Although, that would of been on 3G, Because our phones are manually set to 3G now due to the 4G issues at home and work.

At a guess there are local planning holdups stopping masts or sites being added.

AIUI some of the "normal" mobile phones to come onto the market in 2023 will be capable of using satellite broadband. If so that may be of some use to the two posters here with problems.

I assume mainly Starlink is the target. I've just spent under 10 minutes or so looking for providers of satellite connections in the UK, so not exhaustive, and the only one I found was https://etherlive.co.uk but that website doesn't seem to be much cop!

A few minutes later, googling how to get starlink in uk came up with two others as well, Viasat and HughesNet, but I didn't look into those. It also came up with a recent UK Starlink price reduction from £89pm to £75pm. Ah! Also ISPreview has better info re Starlink itself.

I expect you have better info than I on that whole subject!

It's time to cook!

Edited by pluralist (Wed 28-Dec-22 20:43:13)

Could the issues with mobile be anything to do with the military bases at Gosport?

In reply to a post by pluralist:

AIUI some of the "normal" mobile phones to come onto the market in 2023 will be capable of using satellite broadband.

For Starlink it's not broadband, but very narrowband: SMS and certain messaging apps only.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/12/starli...

In reply to a post by pluralist:

AIUI some of the "normal" mobile phones to come onto the market in 2023 will be capable of using satellite broadband. If so that may be of some use to the two posters here with problems.

Satellite comms from a handheld device is quite complicated. The real 'sat phones' that people take to wilderness areas have very limited battery life and if they do data services its incredibly slow (9600 bps if you are very lucky).

I assume mainly Starlink is the target. I've just spent under 10 minutes or so looking for providers of satellite connections in the UK, so not exhaustive, and the only one I found was https://etherlive.co.uk but that website doesn't seem to be much cop!

As the other poster said, sending emergency signals from a smartphone via satellite is the new thing which Apple launched this year with all the iPhone 14 models. Very slow text messaging service works to signal your position and that you need help somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, or the middle of nowhere in Montana. Its unclear if it works in Alaska, may be too far north for the satellites.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

VMo2 - no formal announcement to date

Yeah, so nothing unusual there. If o2 turned off 3G they'd have even more hopeless service than they do now given just how often you end up sat on 3G bearers with those clowns.

They can't even dream of turning off 3G unless they literally want to go back to 2G service only. Which frankly half the time with o2 is preferable.

In reply to a post by therioman:

Yeah, so nothing unusual there. If o2 turned off 3G they'd have even more hopeless service than they do now given just how often you end up sat on 3G bearers with those clowns.

Its unclear (given the money woes of their owner Telefonica) if during the 4G rollout they were replacing the 2G/3G hardware with 2G/3G/4G software defined radios (SDN) hardware. If so then moving from 2G/3G/4G to a 2G/4G only system would be easy. This is how EE and Vodafone will manage the switch during 2023.

Telefonica had O2 UK up for sale for years, the German operation merged with a competitor so they ended up with only 50% ownership, the Irish network was sold to Three Ireland, and now in the UK they've merged with Virgin Media so they only have a 50% shareholding. Hopefully this will mean money is available to do network improvements, rather than just marketing tricks.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by therioman:

Yeah, so nothing unusual there. If o2 turned off 3G they'd have even more hopeless service than they do now given just how often you end up sat on 3G bearers with those clowns.

Its unclear (given the money woes of their owner Telefonica) if during the 4G rollout they were replacing the 2G/3G hardware with 2G/3G/4G software defined radios (SDN) hardware. If so then moving from 2G/3G/4G to a 2G/4G only system would be easy. This is how EE and Vodafone will manage the switch during 2023.

Telefonica had O2 UK up for sale for years, the German operation merged with a competitor so they ended up with only 50% ownership, the Irish network was sold to Three Ireland, and now in the UK they've merged with Virgin Media so they only have a 50% shareholding. Hopefully this will mean money is available to do network improvements, rather than just marketing tricks.

turning off 3G is about:

(a) refarming the spectrum to 4G/5G because 3G needs a lot of spectrum for very little capacity - they've already moved as much as they can away from it.

(b) getting rid of the need to run an entire platform just for 3G - and in most cases entirely different kit which is also not very efficient - keeping 2G is not much of a big deal (indeed currently it's not possible to realistically remove 2G because behind the scenes it is still needed for basic functionality on 4G/5G - hence the longer window as that will get replaced in a much longer time window)

In reply to a post by therioman:

turning off 3G is about:

(a) refarming the spectrum to 4G/5G because 3G needs a lot of spectrum for very little capacity - they've already moved as much as they can away from it.

Yes, that's obvious when you look at the frequencies using a rooted Android.

(b) getting rid of the need to run an entire platform just for 3G - and in most cases entirely different kit which is also not very efficient - keeping 2G is not much of a big deal (indeed currently it's not possible to realistically remove 2G because behind the scenes it is still needed for basic functionality on 4G/5G - hence the longer window as that will get replaced in a much longer time window)

2G isn't needed for 4G/5G as the US shows, AT&T has scrapped 2G and 3G. The only reason for 2G hanging around is original smart meters, and a lot of vending machines/parking meters that have had no investment and only have GPRS radios. Given most networks have shrunk spectrum for 2G down to 5MHz it wouldn't give much back to the newer protocols.

UMTS (3G) has always been a disaster since it was invented by telecoms committe, it didn't scale, ideas such as Cell Breathing were horrendous, and it it time to put it out of its mysery.

Edited by jchamier (Fri 30-Dec-22 17:49:23)

2G isn't needed for 4G/5G as the US shows, AT&T has scrapped 2G and 3G. The only reason for 2G hanging around is original smart meters, and a lot of vending machines/parking meters that have had no investment and only have GPRS radios. Given most networks have shrunk spectrum for 2G down to 5MHz it wouldn't give much back to the newer protocols.

You've misunderstood what I mean - they don't need to necessarily broadcast a 2G signal to users, but 2G is still fundamental to things behind the scenes - there are various technologies to virtualise the functions of 2G networks to effectively emulate the behaviour and features, but it's absolutely crucial to a lot of backend networks still. It isn't about the radio network for 2G - it's about the backend.

There is an added reason to keep 2G around for devices too - but that isn't the operators reason to do so - it is however relatively "cheap" to keep a 2G service around for now since it already exists.

Comparisons with the US however aren't quite as straightforward as they've come from another world with some alternative technology transitions already so they haven't quite the level of embedded 2G service *and* they have very different geographical challenges.

In reply to a post by therioman:

You've misunderstood what I mean - they don't need to necessarily broadcast a 2G signal to users, but 2G is still fundamental to things behind the scenes - there are various technologies to virtualise the functions of 2G networks to effectively emulate the behaviour and features, but it's absolutely crucial to a lot of backend networks still. It isn't about the radio network for 2G - it's about the backend.

My understanding is that you have the RAN (2G/3G/4G/5G) and the core, and there is the original circuit switched core for 2G extended with GPRS, and then updated for 3G/UMTS, and then the 'Evolved Packet Core' for 4G, and for the non-standalone version of 5G. When Standalone 5G launches, there will be a new core, no requirement for any of the legacy (and the corresponding improvement in performance).

There is an added reason to keep 2G around for devices too - but that isn't the operators reason to do so - it is however relatively "cheap" to keep a 2G service around for now since it already exists.

But a 2012 hardware 2G is vastly different to a 1993/1994 2G service, completely new hardware that is software defined keeping the legacy transmission going over new antenna panels and cabling, surely?

Comparisons with the US however aren't quite as straightforward as they've come from another world with some alternative technology transitions already so they haven't quite the level of embedded 2G service *and* they have very different geographical challenges.

The likes of Sprint and Verizon were completely different, no debate, CDMA, EV-DO etc are not GSM/GPRS or UMTS, but those are in the past, and the US has joined the LTE and NR future. T-mobile (before purchase of Sprint) and AT&T have been GSM/GRPS and UMTS for a very long time.

The recent switch off of UMTS on T-Mobile impacted quite a few UK roamers this summer, as the UK networks haven't completed their VoLTE (4G Calling) roaming agreements, forcing those whom needed to make traditional voice calls to use AT&T instead of T-mobile (where T-mobile's 2G coverage has already gone).

Edited by jchamier (Fri 30-Dec-22 19:02:37)

4G needs to be more reliable if they are turning off 3G, while most of the time I can get 4G fine, there are still places I go to where 3G takes over as it is better than 4G.

At least it will be years before they get rid of 4G as 5G is still hit and miss and a lot of places still don't have it, also loads of phones are still being produced that don't have 5G.
I understand the need to clear frequencies, but I wonder how many people still have phones that don't have 4G. Some of the older non-smart phones don't have 4G.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

4G needs to be more reliable if they are turning off 3G, while most of the time I can get 4G fine, there are still places I go to where 3G takes over as it is better than 4G.

You can't make such a generic statement, you also need to state which physical network you are using. The other 3 may have solved that problem in that area.

I understand the need to clear frequencies, but I wonder how many people still have phones that don't have 4G. Some of the older non-smart phones don't have 4G.

3G will go, but there will be a tiny amount of 2G left (of course not with 'three') for those people whom still need to use a 1994 Nokia.

There are feature phones available that can make 4G Calling phone calls and are not smart phones, and don't need 2G.