Advice re outdoor antenna

As I live in an area with virtually no mobile coverage, even outdoors, about 7 years ago, I installed an outdoor yagi aerial which I use with a Huawei mifi dongle. I really only use it when my broadband is down, for whatever reason. Usually a power cut.

During a recent power cut, I found that connecting the aerial to the dongle didn't increase signal strength whereas it used to work. I'm wondering if this could be due to the 3g switch off?

I can't find the details of the aerial to see bands what it was designed for but it's a yagi with maybe 10 elements. As far as I remember, I bought it for 3g. Is it likely to be sufficiently discriminating to not pick up the 4g signal?

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Is it likely to be sufficiently discriminating to not pick up the 4g signal?

Antenna are tuned for frequency ranges. 3G on EE, Three, Vodafone and O2 was for a long time on 2100 MHz known as "band 1" and also O2 and Vodafone used 900 MHz (Band 8).

It is highly possible that which network and mast you are pointing at does not have 4G on the 2100 frequency, so your tuned antenna is not adding to your reception. If you look at Cellmapper you can locate your area and choose your network and locate what you think is your local mast. This may help.

Or you can post your approximate location, and others can see if they can find masts and frequencies on the four separate operators in your area.

Or even that the operator isn't on that tower at all anymore.

The tower I was pointing at appears to no longer have O2 LTE on it. At some point I need to repoint my backup LTE Mikrotik router.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Or even that the operator isn't on that tower at all anymore. The tower I was pointing at appears to no longer have O2 LTE on it. At some point I need to repoint my backup LTE Mikrotik router.

That is unusual, masts in the UK are either operator owned, or neutral (e.g. Cellnex, formerly Arqiva). It might be yours was an O2 only mast and they've moved slightly to a Cornerstone (O2 & Vodafone joint venture) nearby that might be adding 5G.

As the Three & Vodafone merger has been approved, a lot more of this sort of move is expected as Three & EE divorce, and O2 & Vodafone's co-existance is upset.

After a lot of digging, I tracked down the mast I'm pointing at and confirmed it via a second hand Netgear Nighthawk M1 that I picked up on eBay. That showed that there's nothing on 2100 on the mast. The Nighthawk was picking it up on band 20 (800MHz) but when I plugged the aerial in, it switched to band 3 (1800) but the signal wasn't any better, which matched the behaviour of the Hauwei Dongle. Clearly, a new aerial is indicated but the Nighthawk gets 2 bars which might be enough for very occasional failover use in power cuts.

The only problem with replacing the aerial is cost and the fact that I'd have to drill a new hole in the wall as the existing route in is now buried in a wall.

The only problem with replacing the aerial is cost and the fact that I'd have to drill a new hole in the wall as the existing route in is now buried in a wall

Of course, I might be lucky and someone will start using the 2100 frequency for 4g...

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Of course, I might be lucky and someone will start using the 2100 frequency for 4g...

Many do, but you'll find EE and others are using for 5G. Some are using for Dynamic Spectrum Sharing (DSS) between 4G and 5G.

Quick summary:

* Band 20 is 800 MHz and has range, but with EE and Three only 5MHz of capacity so not much deployed as it saturates. O2 and Vodafone had 10 MHz each and so used this as their base layer.

* Band 1 is 2100 MHz and was used for 3G on many networks until 2024 shutdown. Vodafone and O2 also used 900 MHz.

* Band 3 is 1800 MHz and the base 4G layer for EE and Three, with both using other frequencies for capacity.

* Band 7 is 2600 MHz and higher band for EE and Vodafone.

More useful is this page:
https://mastdatabase.co.uk/gb/spectrum/

Thanks, a useful summary. It seems that bands 1,3 and 20 are available on the mast I'm using on EE (I'm on 1p Mobile but I also have a Three SIM that I could swap in). I'm very rural and the mast is 3.5km away, according to Google, behind some hills. So far, I've only seen bands 20 and 1 used by the Nighthawk router, I'll have another play when I get the chance.

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Thanks, a useful summary. It seems that bands 1,3 and 20 are available on the mast I'm using on EE (I'm on 1p Mobile but I also have a Three SIM that I could swap in). I'm very rural and the mast is 3.5km away, according to Google, behind some hills. So far, I've only seen bands 20 and 1 used by the Nighthawk router, I'll have another play when I get the chance.

4G LTE works by the mast and the device talking and cooperating, and the mast has to be able to hear you, as well as you hear the mast. Both the signal strength and signal quality are shared between both. Some devices show you these stats. The best tool for looking at signals is a rooted qualcomm modem Android phone with the free version of Network Signal Guru but that is a bit detailed technical.

You might find asking on the Digital Spy mobile forum to have some posters that know a bit more.

Edited by jchamier (Fri 21-Feb-25 12:29:21)

Thanks of that. I had no idea that it was a two way conversation but it makes sense, when I think about it.

I don't think I need to go to the trouble of getting a special phone, it won't change anything. Anyway, below is the signal diagnostic information from my Nighthawk. My research indicates that the RSRP is borderline "Fair" and RSRQ is just about "Good". Connecting the external aerial doesn't change the values much but the LTE band changes to B3. I'll probably do nothing for now. Next time I need the aerial guy to come out, I'll look at getting a 4G antenna fitted. It's only for backup when the fibre internet is down (usually due to a power cut). I'll have to do some tests to see if the cell signal is good enough to make a voice call with wifi calling.

NETWORK
Network Selection Mode Auto
Country GBR
Roaming  Off
RSRP -117 dBm
RSRQ -11 dBm
RS-SINR 2 dBm
Current Radio Band LTE B20
Quality 27 dBm
PS Service Type LTE
MCC 234
MNC 30
LAC 25170
RAC 0
Cell ID 4369420
Channel Number 6225
MNC Format 2
PLMN Service Error Bit Mask. 0

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Connecting the external aerial doesn't change the values much but the LTE band changes to B3. I'll probably do nothing for now.

That could give you significant increase in capacity. EE only has 5Mhz wide at band 20 used for long range basic connectivity and calls; often only deployed in rural areas. Most of the UK EE use Band 3 as their base layer for 4G, and in my neighbourhood we have two separate transmissions, both 20 MHz wide. Modern modems that support basic LTE Category 6 should aggregate these and give you 40 MHz capacity. In a rural area with less customers you could only have one transmission on Band 3, but 20 MHz wide is like having a 4 lane motorway, versus the 5 MHz on band 20 is like a farm track.

Speed tests, or downloading large files from Thinkbroadband, should be obviously different.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Connecting the external aerial doesn't change the values much but the LTE band changes to B3. I'll probably do nothing for now.

That could give you significant increase in capacity. .....

Speed tests, or downloading large files from Thinkbroadband, should be obviously different.

You are quite right. I did some testing and it was a real eye opener! I connected my laptop directly to the Nighthawk, which has an ethernet socket, and tested using the internal and outdoor aerials. There was a massive difference in speeds.

Using the internal aerials I got around 2.3Mbs download and 1.4Mbs upload. When I connected the outdoor aerial, I got much faster speeds. There was a wide variation, the first couple of results were below 20Mbs download but after that, they speeded up, as if there was some settling in going on. After the first two, the download speeds ranged from 29.4Mbs to 67.7Mbs with a mean of 51.2Mbs. Upload was more consistent with a mean of 7.9Mbs.

Downloading large files mirrored these results. Clearly, it’s worth using the external aerial and 4G speeds, even with a less than optimal location, can be a viable alternative to fixed lines

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

In reply to a post by filbert42:

You are quite right. I did some testing and it was a real eye opener! I connected my laptop directly to the Nighthawk, which has an ethernet socket, and tested using the internal and outdoor aerials. There was a massive difference in speeds.

Have you compared this at the same time of day a few times? I'd be interested in that as a lot of speed issued can go up and down on mobile networks due to congestion.
Just wondering about writing something about this.

seb

In reply to a post by seb:

In reply to a post by filbert42:

You are quite right. I did some testing and it was a real eye opener! I connected my laptop directly to the Nighthawk, which has an ethernet socket, and tested using the internal and outdoor aerials. There was a massive difference in speeds.

Have you compared this at the same time of day a few times? I'd be interested in that as a lot of speed issued can go up and down on mobile networks due to congestion.
Just wondering about writing something about this.

seb

I've only one one set of tests so far but both with and without external aerial were at the same time - late morning on a weekday. I intend to do some more.

I've done another set of tests, this time on a Netgear Nighthawk M6, that I got for a "too good to be true" price on eBay (but it seems to work OK). It's 5G capable but, as far as I know, there's no 5G available round here.

Anyway, I got very varying results. The built-in aerial and a Netgear MIMO omnidirectional aerial stuck to the window both gave around 3Mbs, as before. Again, as before, the outdoor aerial gave much faster speeds, ranging from 11Mbs to 95Mbs.. (I didn't think 4G could get to 95Mbs..)

Download speeds, 19th Mar around 2:30pm:
11.1
20.8
25.9
23.2
44.7
28.4
74.0
94.9
32.8
22.6
25.7
18.0
33.9

In reply to a post by filbert42:

I've done another set of tests, this time on a Netgear Nighthawk M6, that I got for a "too good to be true" price on eBay (but it seems to work OK). It's 5G capable but, as far as I know, there's no 5G available round here.

When I looked 5G they were expensiveve .. I had a Nighthawk I think M1 (Well I still have it somewhere) when I moved to a new place some years ago.. it was very variable but I didn't do the external antenna thing,

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Anyway, I got very varying results. The built-in aerial and a Netgear MIMO omnidirectional aerial stuck to the window both gave around 3Mbs, as before. Again, as before, the outdoor aerial gave much faster speeds, ranging from 11Mbs to 95Mbs.. (I didn't think 4G could get to 95Mbs..)
[/qupte]

Wow that's pretty amazing

seb

In reply to a post by seb:

In reply to a post by filbert42:

I've done another set of tests, this time on a Netgear Nighthawk M6, that I got for a "too good to be true" price on eBay (but it seems to work OK). It's 5G capable but, as far as I know, there's no 5G available round here.

When I looked 5G they were expensiveve .. I had a Nighthawk I think M1 (Well I still have it somewhere) when I moved to a new place some years ago.. it was very variable but I didn't do the external antenna thing,

In reply to a post by filbert42:

Anyway, I got very varying results. The built-in aerial and a Netgear MIMO omnidirectional aerial stuck to the window both gave around 3Mbs, as before. Again, as before, the outdoor aerial gave much faster speeds, ranging from 11Mbs to 95Mbs.. (I didn't think 4G could get to 95Mbs..)

Wow that's pretty amazing

seb

The 5G Nighthawks (M6) are phenomenally expensive, IMHO, but I was lucky and got this one for maybe 20% of the new price due to an intermittent Ethernet port - which I can live without. I have done some more digging, and it seems that EE does have some 5G support in this area - described as "Weak coverage" outdoors. The results look like this:

LTE RSRP -114 dBm
LTE RSRQ -15 dB
LTE RS-SNR 4 dB
5G RSRP -103 dBm
5G RSRQ -11 dB
5G RS-SNR 16 dB
Current Radio Band LTE B3
Quality 40 dBm
PS Service Type 5GSUB6
MCC 000

I'm not sure how to interpret these but, for the fallback service that I need when the main broadband goes down, it seems plenty good enough. Clearly, the outdoor aerial is doing its job. I'll do soem more tests from time to time and see what happens.

I might get the "3G" aerial replaced for a better one if I need to get some other work done but it's not worth the expense on its own.

Edited by filbert42 (Fri 21-Mar-25 10:21:31)

In reply to a post by filbert42:

(I didn't think 4G could get to 95Mbs..)

It is a misconception that 4G (LTE) can't do high speeds. In most cases the speed constraints are due to number of concurrent users and/or poor signal either due to distance from mast or due to being on a cell edge or poor uplink from your user equipment to the mast.

I've seen 500 Mbps on 4G, and others have seen higher.